What happens at multi-agency checkpoints?

freshpopcorn

Hi!
I have seen posts about multi-agency checkpoints on facebook/twitter.
What actually happens at these is basically my question.
The Gardai inspect your car for the usually offences and the revenue can check for diesel and VRT.
What exactly do social welfare officers do at these checkpoints?

jimmy180sx

Making sure you're not wearing a hi-vis and steel toecaps

endacl

SW will check if you're on your way to a job you might have claimed you don't have.

jimmycrackcorm

endacl wrote: »

SW will check if you're on your way to a job you might have claimed you don't have.

Are the SW people actually from revenue or from the DSP? Can't see how DSP have rights to ask you any questions if you're not their 'customer'.

ED E

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Are the SW people actually from revenue or from the DSP? Can't see how DSP have rights to ask you any questions if you're not their 'customer'.

A Garda can identify you, the DSP member just has to do a lookup then.

endacl

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Are the SW people actually from revenue or from the DSP? Can't see how DSP have rights to ask you any questions if you're not their 'customer'.

They can check in with the guards, who can ask to see your driving license, which will have your name, address and DOB on it, which the guards can provide to the DSP official to check.

Convoluted yet simple.

Henry Ford III

I went through one the other day. Wasn't stopped although the 2 Gardai gave my car a thorough visual once over.

I'd say if they ask you to pull in and park up they are suspicious.

Nekarsulm

Will ask your PPS number. Couple of years ago they carried out such an exercise at the local cattle mart.
Tax, Test, Insurance, Diesel, and PPS numbers and herd numbers. Looking for lads on the dole who were also keeping a few cattle. (Social Welfare dept. mustn't have been talking to Dept. Ag at that time)

Victor

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Are the SW people actually from revenue or from the DSP? Can't see how DSP have rights to ask you any questions if you're not their 'customer'.

If you are meant to be paying PRSI, you are their customer.

Additionally, it is the DSP that maintains the PPS database.

mickdw

I have nothing to hide from them but I don't like this idea one bit.
My friend who is a paye worker again with nothing to hide was stopped in a work vehicle. He works for a large well known company. He asked him numerous questions as well as how much he earned while work mate was in passenger seat.
That is not on. Surely if you verify, name and pps and that you work for x company, you should be on your way.

bladespin

mickdw wrote: »

I have nothing to hide from them but I don't like this idea one bit.
My friend who is a paye worker again with nothing to hide was stopped in a work vehicle. He works for a large well known company. He asked him numerous questions as well as how much he earned while work mate was in passenger seat.
That is not on. Surely if you verify, name and pps and that you work for x company, you should be on your way.

You don't have to answer BTW, also the above is a breach of data protection law, mate should report that.

Atlantic Dawn

mickdw wrote: »

I have nothing to hide from them but I don't like this idea one bit.
My friend who is a paye worker again with nothing to hide was stopped in a work vehicle. He works for a large well known company. He asked him numerous questions as well as how much he earned while work mate was in passenger seat.
That is not on. Surely if you verify, name and pps and that you work for x company, you should be on your way.

Questions like that are a complete abuse of power and it's these instances that make people more agressive and less likely to co-operate. As said 100% get him to report them, way out of order asking it whether there was someone in the vehicle with him or not.

I've decided if I come across one of these check points they will get my name, address and DOB, nothing else.

wonski

They can ask any question they want, but that doesn't mean I have to answer them.

As much as I am all for tackling benefits fraud I think the idea of Garda assisting them like that is a sign they can't cope with their work.

Stopping random motorists like that is a joke really.

I don't even remember my pps number btw, are they going to detain me

blackbox

I think they are mostly looking for green diesel and vans being used as cars.

freshpopcorn

blackbox wrote: »

I think they are mostly looking for green diesel and vans being used as cars.

Isn't that more customs tough?

Miike

bladespin wrote: »

You don't have to answer BTW, also the above is a breach of data protection law, mate should report that.

Just to echo this. Needs to reported to the data protection commissioner.

To the best of my knowledge and from that social welfare inspector law that was passed all you're required to give by law is Name, Address, DoB and PPS to a social welfare inspector, whether you have a sw claim or not you're bound by law to answer those questions.

GM228

bladespin wrote: »

mickdw wrote: »

I have nothing to hide from them but I don't like this idea one bit.
My friend who is a paye worker again with nothing to hide was stopped in a work vehicle. He works for a large well known company. He asked him numerous questions as well as how much he earned while work mate was in passenger seat.
That is not on. Surely if you verify, name and pps and that you work for x company, you should be on your way.

You don't have to answer BTW, also the above is a breach of data protection law, mate should report that.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Questions like that are a complete abuse of power and it's these instances that make people more agressive and less likely to co-operate. As said 100% get him to report them, way out of order asking it whether there was someone in the vehicle with him or not.

I've decided if I come across one of these check points they will get my name, address and DOB, nothing else.

Miike wrote: »

Just to echo this. Needs to reported to the data protection commissioner.

To the best of my knowledge and from that social welfare inspector law that was passed all you're required to give by law is Name, Address, DoB and PPS to a social welfare inspector, whether you have a sw claim or not you're bound by law to answer those questions.

The power of DSP inspectors to stop and question motorists stems from S250 (16) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 (as amended), this section allows an inspector to ask questions of any person in any vehicle in relation to compliance of the entire Act. Under the Act inspectors can ask questions in relation to wages and it's also an offence to refuse to answer any question asked by an inspector.

There are other sections within the Act which specifically give permission to ask questions in relation to wages, but S250 specifically makes it an offence to refuse to answer any question they ask, it does not limit what they can/can't ask. DP law is irrelevant.

RacoonQueen

You submit your PPS number when you apply for your licence so Guards will be able to pull your PPS number I assume - if you've nothing to hide, then no reason really not to co-operate, except if they ask you how much you earn.
Assume the guards are there as the SW and revenue do not have the legal right to pull you over. Not sure what 'rights' the guards have though but if some random waves to pull me over, I wouldn't pull over...if a Guard told me to pull over, I'd pull over....

elperello

Is this the section to which you refer?

(16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment, where so requested, question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle or require that person to give to the social welfare inspector any record relating to his or her employment or self-employment which the person has possession of in the vehicle, and examine it.

Miike

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/SWI---Powers-of-Social-Welfare-Inspectors.aspx

GM228

elperello wrote: »

Is this the section to which you refer?

(16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment, where so requested, question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle or require that person to give to the social welfare inspector any record relating to his or her employment or self-employment which the person has possession of in the vehicle, and examine it.

That's it, but there have been amendments, for example Gardaí no longer need to be in uniform and the criteria of being used in employment/self employment to exercise the power no longer applies.

elperello

GM228 wrote: »

That's it, but there have been amendments, for example Gardaí no longer need to be in uniform and the criteria of being used in employment/self employment to exercise the power no longer applies.

Thanks.
Do you have a link to those amendments?

allthedoyles

Have never been stopped at one but heard its the Gardai , RSA , SW , and Customs .
A truck driver told me last week that the RSA checked if there was water in the windscreen washer .

GM228

elperello wrote: »

Thanks.
Do you have a link to those amendments?

Here you go.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/act/9/section/13/enacted/en/html

wonski

GM228 wrote: »

The power of DSP inspectors to stop and question motorists stems from S250 (16) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 (as amended), this section allows an inspector to ask questions of any person in any vehicle in relation to compliance of the entire Act. Under the Act inspectors can ask questions in relation to wages and it's also an offence to refuse to answer any question asked by an inspector.

There are other sections within the Act which specifically give permission to ask questions in relation to wages, but S250 specifically makes it an offence to refuse to answer any question they ask, it does not limit what they can/can't ask. DP law is irrelevant.

I call it a bull**** law. Will they knock on your door doing the same? I would question it.

The reason they doing it on the road is us giving details more easily this way.

Imagine a Gardai and social welfare stopping you while you're walking your dog or going out of a pub for a cig?

What makes a motorist being fit for all these questions and why would I give my rights up just because I drive ( not to mention the motor tax I am paying every year).

Edit: DSP inspector given a right to ask questions, but not to stop the cars.

I can't wait to see one of them interrogating me on the side of a road

Atlantic Dawn

GM228 wrote: »

The power of DSP inspectors to stop and question motorists stems from S250 (16) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 (as amended), this section allows an inspector to ask questions of any person in any vehicle in relation to compliance of the entire Act. Under the Act inspectors can ask questions in relation to wages and it's also an offence to refuse to answer any question asked by an inspector.

There are other sections within the Act which specifically give permission to ask questions in relation to wages, but S250 specifically makes it an offence to refuse to answer any question they ask, it does not limit what they can/can't ask. DP law is irrelevant.

Where does it say it's an offence to refuse to answer any question asked by an inspector?

elperello

(c) by substituting the following subsection for subsection (16):

“(16) For the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, a social welfare inspector may, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform, or an officer of the Customs and Excise in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle, and

(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment where so requested—

(i) question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle or in the vicinity of the vehicle, and

(ii) require such person, where the social welfare inspector reasonably suspects that the vehicle is being used in the course of employment or self-employment, to give to the social welfare inspector any record relating to the employment or self-employment of such person which such person has possession of in the vehicle.”.

Thanks again.
The above is a direct quote from your link and seems to suggest that the Garda or Customs and Excise officer must be in uniform.Also the reasonable suspicion part is still there.

bladespin

GM228 wrote:

The power of DSP inspectors to stop and question motorists stems from S250 (16) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 (as amended), this section allows an inspector to ask questions of any person in any vehicle in relation to compliance of the entire Act. Under the Act inspectors can ask questions in relation to wages and it's also an offence to refuse to answer any question asked by an inspector.

GM228 wrote:

There are other sections within the Act which specifically give permission to ask questions in relation to wages, but S250 specifically makes it an offence to refuse to answer any question they ask, it does not limit what they can/can't ask. DP law is irrelevant.

Not with a third party present.

GM228

wonski wrote: »

Edit: DSP inspector given a right to ask questions, but not to stop the cars.

I can't wait to see one of them interrogating me on the side of a road

Read the legislation and you will see they can stop cars (when accompanied by the Gardaí or Revenue).

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Where does it say it's an offence to refuse to answer any question asked by an inspector?

S250 (6)(b)

(6) A person who—
(a) wilfully delays or obstructs a social welfare inspector in the exercise of any duty or power under this section, or
(b) refuses or neglects to answer any question or to give any information or to produce any record when required to do so under this section, or
(c) conceals or prevents or attempts to conceal or prevent any person from appearing before or being examined by a social welfare inspector or any other person appointed under this section,
is guilty of an offence.

elperello wrote: »

(c) by substituting the following subsection for subsection (16):

“(16) For the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, a social welfare inspector may, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform, or an officer of the Customs and Excise in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle, and

(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment where so requested—

(i) question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle or in the vicinity of the vehicle, and

(ii) require such person, where the social welfare inspector reasonably suspects that the vehicle is being used in the course of employment or self-employment, to give to the social welfare inspector any record relating to the employment or self-employment of such person which such person has possession of in the vehicle.”.

Thanks again.
The above is a direct quote from your link and seems to suggest that the Garda or Customs and Excise officer must be in uniform.Also the reasonable suspicion part is still there.

S15 (a)(iv) of the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2014 removes the requirement for a uniform.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/16/section/15/enacted/en/html

(iv) in subsection (16), by deleting “in uniform” in each place where it occurs

Reasonable suspicion only applies to S250 (16)(ii) specifically in relation to records of employment for vehicles they suspect is used for employment/self employment.

bladespin wrote: »

Not with a third party present.

And how do you think that? Legislation allows them to ask any question of any person in the vehicle, also DP laws to not apply to the investigation of a potential offences anyway.

Atlantic Dawn

So any question, basically they could ask for your PIN for your ATM card and you would have to answer it? A Garda can't even do that, crazy laws in place.

Have you a link to the actual text confirming this?

GM228

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

So any question, basically they could ask for your PIN for your ATM card and you would have to answer it? A Garda can't even do that, crazy laws in place.

Have you a link to the actual text confirming this?

People forget or obviously don't realise that the DSP and Revenue actually have far greater powers than Gardaí.

Read S250 of the Act:-

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/26/section/250/enacted/en/html#sec250

It allows them to ask any question, and failure to answer any question as per S250 (6)(b) is an offence because it does not give a list of what they can/can't ask so until somebody challenges a particular question they ask in the High Court or Supreme Court any question realistically is fair game unfortunately.

bladespin

GM228 wrote: »

And how do you think that? Legislation allows them to ask any question of any person in the vehicle, also DP laws to not apply to the investigation of a potential offences anyway.

They may well be entitled to ask whatever they like and the DP laws may or may not apply to them but they do apply to the trird party in the vehicle and therefore you are entitled to point that out, by all means I'd answer outside the car/whatever, but not in, even asking the question infront of a stranger is a massive overreach and warrants a challenge.

GM228

bladespin wrote: »

They may well be entitled to ask whatever they like and the DP laws may or may not apply to them but they do apply to the trird party in the vehicle and therefore you are entitled to point that out, by all means I'd answer outside the car/whatever, but not in, even asking the question infront of a stranger is a massive overreach and warrants a challenge.

With all due respect, you obviously do not understand DP law and what it entails and when it applies.

DP law does not apply when investigating a potential offence, therefore when someone asks a question in relation to investigating an offence it does not apply, weather you are alone or not does not change that as there is no qualifying criteria for the exemption.

The law allows an inspector ask any person any question, it isn't subject to any person who is alone etc or any other conditions.

Atlantic Dawn

GM228 wrote: »

People forget or obviously don't realise that the DSP and Revenue actually have far greater powers than Gardaí.

Read S250 of the Act:-

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/26/section/250/enacted/en/html#sec250

It allows them to ask any question, and failure to answer any question as per S250 (6)(b) is an offence because it does not give a list of what they can/can't ask so until somebody challenges a particular question they ask in the High Court or Supreme Court any question realistically is fair game unfortunately.

I feel that power is far too open to abuse and against my civil liberty and I will 100% refuse all questions except to confirm my name, address and DOB if I ever come across such a checkpoint as a result. If the law had the definition "any question in relation to welfare fraud" that would be acceptable.

Miike

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I feel that power is far too open to abuse and against my civil liberty and I will 100% refuse all questions except to confirm my name, address and DOB if I ever come across such a checkpoint as a result. If the law had the definition "any question in relation to welfare fraud" that would be acceptable.

I'm fairly sure they'd be reasonable about it if you said "Can we talk outside the ear shot of my friends in the car?" But refusing to answer will just have you prosecuted. Ultimately they're not asking you questions to invade your privacy, there is a purpose behind it.

That's not to say I disagree with you, I think it's a bit much they can get away with asking you whatever they want and you've to answer on the side of the road.

RustyNut

GM228 wrote: »

It allows them to ask any question, and failure to answer any question as per S250 (6)(b) is an offence

I wonder where that leaves someone's constitutional right not to incriminate themselves?

bladespin

GM228 wrote: »

With all due respect, you obviously do not understand DP law and what it entails and when it applies.

DP law does not apply when investigating a potential offence, therefore when someone asks a question in relation to investigating an offence it does not apply, weather you are alone or not does not change that as there is no qualifying criteria for the exemption.

The law allows an inspector ask any person any question, it isn't subject to any person who is alone etc or any other conditions.

With all due respect back to you, I'm not debating that or whatever powers they have but refusing to answer until you could have a 'private conversation' with the inspector is quite a reasonable request and making a complaint about the approach is fine too.
It may be an offence but I'd risk it, can you imagine that scenario ending up in court? The DP would be laughed out the door.

GM228

RustyNut wrote: »

I wonder where that leaves someone's constitutional right not to incriminate themselves?

The right to silence is not absolute and does not apply when statute requires you to answer a question.

Atlantic Dawn

Miike wrote: »

I'm fairly sure they'd be reasonable about it if you said "Can we talk outside the ear shot of my friends in the car?" But refusing to answer will just have you prosecuted. Ultimately they're not asking you questions to invade your privacy, there is a purpose behind it.

That's not to say I disagree with you, I think it's a bit much they can get away with asking you whatever they want and you've to answer on the side of the road.

Yes I'd like to be prosecuted to highlight it, the ordinary people need to know this level of power has been given to the inspectors.

Larbre34

Interesting tone in this thread. It sounds very much to me like some people are uneasy that they might be challenged on various little fiddles they might be pulling as regards their cars or their declared income.

Its a bit of an Irish tradition to revel in avoidance of taxes or other obligations, but these efficient checkpoints shouldnt annoy unless youve something to hide. Personally Im delighted there are efforts to catch people that are pulling down dole from the taxes I pay while working off the books, or running cars on agri diesel while I pay full duties at the pump, or underdeclaring VRT on vehicle specs while the rest of us pay it through our dealers.

bladespin

Larbre34 wrote: »

Interesting tone in this thread. It sounds very much to me like some people are uneasy that they might be challenged on various little fiddles they might be pulling as regards their cars or their declared income.

Its a bit of an Irish tradition to revel in avoidance of taxes or other obligations, but these efficient checkpoints shouldnt annoy unless youve something to hide. Personally Im delighted there are efforts to catch people that are pulling down dole from the taxes I pay while working off the books, or running cars on agri diesel while I pay full duties at the pump, or underdeclaring VRT on vehicle specs while the rest of us pay it through our dealers.

Actually not really, for my part I'm completely compliant (over compliant actually lol, awaiting a rebate) but take my privacy very seriously, I have no problem with these checkpoints or the fact that the DP are actually proactive (long overdue) but the scenario above is crazy, demeaning even, I've a problem with that.

Atlantic Dawn

Larbre34 wrote: »

Interesting tone in this thread. It sounds very much to me like some people are uneasy that they might be challenged on various little fiddles they might be pulling as regards their cars or their declared income.

Its a bit of an Irish tradition to revel in avoidance of taxes or other obligations, but these efficient checkpoints shouldnt annoy unless youve something to hide. Personally Im delighted there are efforts to catch people that are pulling down dole from the taxes I pay while working off the books, or running cars on agri diesel while I pay full duties at the pump, or underdeclaring VRT on vehicle specs while the rest of us pay it through our dealers.

So you would be happy as either a PRSI employee or fully tax compliant self employed individual for someone to ask you your salary, ask you how much money you have in your bank account, ask you how much money you spend a month and anything else they feel like asking despite the fact there's not one thing suspicious about you pulling up in your car? In addition you have no way of knowing if they are securely going to hold your data they are recording or just leave it on a piece of notepaper and discard it accidentally in some pub they are having lunch in?

bladespin

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

In addition you have no way of knowing if they are securely going to hold your data they are recording or just leave it on a piece of notepaper and discard it accidentally in some pub they are having lunch in?

The civvies don't have the best rep with laptops either

Couldn't resist sorry.

elperello

I feel that we owe a debt of gratitude to GM 228 for telling us about all these powers that have been granted by law to civil servants to keep us all in line.

It's not our usual bill of fare on Motors so it's useful to know what we might encounter on the roads.

I have no recourse whatsoever to the DSP and off the top of my head I wouldn't be able to give my RSI number.

In the course of various hobbies and interests I am often roaming about togged out in working clothes and steel toecaps with a boot full of tools and various spare parts. Only on reading this legislation did I realise that I am a likely suspect at one of these checkpoints.

I'm not sure what my response would be if they started asking me details of income, tax affairs etc in front of a passenger.

I should add that I am fully tax compliant.

Miike

elperello wrote: »

I feel that we owe a debt of gratitude to GM 228 for telling us about all these powers that have been granted by law to civil servants to keep us all in line.

It's not our usual bill of fare on Motors so it's useful to know what we might encounter on the roads.

I have no recourse whatsoever to the DSP and off the top of my head I wouldn't be able to give my RSI number.

In the course of various hobbies and interests I am often roaming about togged out in working clothes and steel toecaps with a boot full of tools and various spare parts. Only on reading this legislation did I realise that I am a likely suspect at one of these checkpoints.

I'm not sure what my response would be if they started asking me details of income, tax affairs etc in front of a passenger.

I should add that I am fully tax compliant.

If your job is a tax adviser for company X in Industrial Estate Y, you've no reason to be going into work togged out to change an engine either though so you won't be raising suspicion. These check points aren't something you'll often find outside of places like industrial estates or business districts and if you're tax compliant then there is absolutely nothing to worry about. You're allowed to have hobbies and interests.