Femme invisibility

baby and crumble

Just wondering what folk's opinions are on femme invisibility in the queer scene? I very much identify as butch/ masculine of centre so I can't speak frompersonal experience. But most of my friends (and my fiancee) are femme (pretty high femme, too) and I know it's something that is a real issue, similar to bi-erasure etc.

There's a good article published about it here.

"You’re too pretty to be a lesbian,” a gay male newspaper editor once told me with a dismissive wave of his hand when I went for a job interview. I’ve been ranted at by strangers in lesbian bars who essentially told me to go back to Straightsville where they mistakenly thought I belonged."

JackTaylorFan

Yeah, unless you got the whole K.D Lang thang going on, i Imagine a lot of people just assume it's an experimental thing for pretty girls to try out for a bit.

"Don't worry you'll come back 'round to the Dick eventually" - kinda mentality.

2 things that contribute massively to this misconception include (in ny opinion):

Female popstars looking for headlines by doing the whole "lesbian kiss" thing or at least singing about it

and

Girl-on-Girl Porn aimed at men

baby and crumble

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Girl-on-Girl Porn aimed at men

SO. MUCH. FINGERNAIL. :eek::eek::eek::eek:

JackTaylorFan

baby and crumble wrote: »

SO. MUCH. FINGERNAIL. :eek::eek::eek::eek:

I know, right.

Ouch!

I'm always making myself bleed... Just trying to pick my own nose

LLMMLL

Whenever I've walked through the front part of the front lounge there always seemed to be more femme than butch.....

baby and crumble

LLMMLL wrote: »

Whenever I've walked through the front part of the front lounge there always seemed to be more femme than butch.....

It's not about actual invisibility though, it's about a dismissal of the femme identity. I guess there's misogynistic tones to it too, and stereotypes- the "you're too pretty to be a lesbian" comments etc.

jobbridge4life

baby and crumble wrote: »

It's not about actual invisibility though, it's about a dismissal of the femme identity. I guess there's misogynistic tones to it too, and stereotypes- the "you're too pretty to be a lesbian" comments etc.

Baby, I have to say that when I was younger, like 5-6 years ago I was guilty of doing that. I'd like to apologise unresevedly for that now. Looking back on it now I am mortified, I don't know how I managed not to spot how ignorant it was. Thankfully I have copped a lot on since then.

baby and crumble

Ah sure we were all a bit like that at. I remember being flattered when a load of gay guys said it to me once.

Youth, whilst not an excuse for "bad" behaviour is an explanation for not picking up on the grey areas. When I was 19 I'd you'd asked me I would've told you I though bisexuality was a nonsense and that I didn't really think anyone could be transgender, and I certainly didn't think anyone could transition from male to female and then identify as a lesbian.

Luckily I've grown up a bit. But I can see quite a bit of misogyny in the community, particularly from Butch/ masculine of centre women. I dunno if it's a case of aping traditional male (and gross male, to be clear!) behaviour. But it's awful, I was just wondering what others thoughts were.

Rob G

It all boils down to trying to classify people with nice clean ticky boxes. Society likes to classify people as either
- XY masculine men with a mickey attracted to women, or
- XX effeminate women with a fairy attracted to men

In reality, even in the straight community, there are very butch women and very effeminate men.

Really, LGBT people who have fought long and hard to have their particular ticky box recognised should know better than to try putting others into a ticky box they recognise. To say a woman isn't lesbian because she likes handbags and lipstick is like saying they aren't lesbian because they have brown eyes. It makes no sense.

Full disclosure: I'm straight but supportive, my connection to the LGBT world is my trans daughter.

Annasopra

Rob G wrote: »

Really, LGBT people who have fought long and hard to have their particular ticky box recognised should know better than to try putting others into a ticky box they recognise.

They should but they often don't. Mysogyny, lesbophobia, biphobia and transphobia coming from lgbt people is quite common.

RagsOBrien

This is definitely still a problem. I think the vast majority of people I meet assume I'm straight. I would say I am femme and dress and appear so. It doesn't help that I don't have any lgbt network or friends to speak of these days and dating seems a distant fantasy now- I've had zero luck with the online apps. Seems Tinder even throws in straight women for the craic and lots of couples experimenting which isn't my thing.

I have been out to some of the gay bars but I think most people I encounter in there assume I am a straight friend.I would like to try a meetup but with ther hobbies I have, I always end up chickening out or making excuses and not finding time. Alas, what does one do?!

Meab

Before I met my gf I didn't know any gay people.

I met her on POF. Could see from her profile that we were similar, messaged her for a while and then met up.

And both of us new each other were gay because we were both on the Lesbian section of POF. Been with her well over a year now.

Give it another go! And don't get disheartened if you encounter a few who you are totally not interested it.

JackTaylorFan

Meab wrote: »

Before I met my gf I didn't know any gay people.

I met her on POF. Could see from her profile that we were similar, messaged her for a while and then met up.

And both of us new each other were gay because we were both on the Lesbian section of POF. Been with her well over a year now.

Give it another go! And don't get disheartened if you encounter a few who you are totally not interested it.

I do wonder sometimes.. How people get from point A to 78Z

RagsOBrien

I was on POF a few years ago but got fed up of it as didn't have much luck...even met a few but we didn't have any park or the ones I met weren't interested in any type of relationship. I am a bit hopeless at the moment:pac:.

That's cool though- you can be lucky with those things as well!

Lauren3142

Femme invisibity is a real thing .
grown so sick of the

"your too pretty to be a lesbian"
"you havent met the right man yet"
"your sure your not bi"

POF - one of the most useless tools ive found when it comes to finding women


even at the front lounge or the george men approach me and its always these resposes when i come out , its a daily sturggle.



irritates the bejesus out me !!

Ive accepted it might take some time to meet a woman in Dublin

RagsOBrien

Lauren3142 wrote: »

Femme invisibity is a real thing .
grown so sick of the

"your too pretty to be a lesbian"
"you havent met the right man yet"
"your sure your not bi"

POF - one of the most useless tools ive found when it comes to finding women


even at the front lounge or the george men approach me and its always these resposes when i come out , its a daily sturggle.


irritates the bejesus out me !!

Ive accepted it might take some time to meet a woman in Dublin

Haha I have the same struggles. POF is nearly worse than Tinder I think. Haven't been into the George or FL in a long time but I was assumed straight in those places too although did get chatting some nice gay guys but they were not exactly romantic leads.:(

I think it's a long term project finding love if you aren't a straight woman!

Vojera

I wouldn't consider myself very femme-y (I guess I'd be a 'low femme', according to the article - it's not something I ever think about, tbh) but even at my level of "femmeness" I've often been told I don't look "butch enough" to be a lesbian, or that I'm not a "real" lesbian (whatever that means).

Those comments have all come from straight people, though. I'm not involved in the scene at all so I honestly couldn't say whether it is or isn't an issue but it's definitely something I've heard of before.

I wonder is it a bit of annoyance that feminine-presenting women can get through life without people assuming they're queer?

Glitter

This is absolutely a real thing and incredibly annoying and invalidating.

I'd consider myself high femme and have done since the late 90's - which is a long time to be hearing the 'you're too pretty to be a lesbian' schtick.

As someone who has almost always dated butches what used to get to me the most was only being identified as a lesbian in the company of a butch partner. Like my queerness was written in invisible ink until the shadow of the butch made it visible (and ipso facto 'real').

Infuriating!

Not on the mainstream scene much these days but I can't imagine much has changed.

baby and crumble

Glitter wrote: »

Not on the mainstream scene much these days but I can't imagine much has changed.

My high femme partner can assure you- nothing much has changed.

What can be done? It genuinely angers me.

Goodshape

Sounds not too dissimilar on the gay male side of things. There's not much, if anything, about me that would signal I'm gay. Have been accused of being not-really-gay, not-that-gay, that I'm putting on the 'straight-acting' thing, that I'm holding something back, and even been turned away from gay bars because "I don't think this place is for you".

I'm definitely not the most masculine of guys, but I guess there's just a bit of grunge and punk influence to my outward appearance.


Anyway yeah, it is annoying alright. Less so as I've gotten older (33 now and to be honest, couldn't really care less about conforming to any standard) but coming out in my early-and-mid-20s, I never really felt the open-armed welcoming embrace form "the community" that I thought I might. Maybe I just expected too much.

Glitter

baby and crumble wrote: »

My high femme partner can assure you- nothing much has changed.

What can be done? It genuinely angers me.

Figured as much re the scene!

As to what can be done? Sadly, I think as is often the case, those whom it affects are the ones left holding the can. Being as visible and as vocal as one can about ones queerness to let people know you can wear flicky eyeliner and red lipstick and still be a dyke. It's exhausting sometimes though, always having to out yourself because the presumption is made immediately that you're straight.

confusted

Eh, I'm kind of in a similar situation and a bit at a loss as to how to meet a woman. The extent of my recent attempts have been to walk in the front door of the Front Lounge and out the back door. I know there's meetups and Running Amach looks great but I've kind of chickened out. POF has been okay for me actually although I get the impression that at least one of the women I've met, quite a few times, is testing the water, which is fine, I'd just like to know rather than feeling like there's something only to realise that she hasn't got a clue what she wants. Will have to give Running Amach events a real go and stop chickening out.

newinireland25

I have the same problem.... I am a 26 years old girl, who is too afraid to go to any LGBT events... Still waiting for a miracle to find someone by "accident"

JupiterKid

When I came out in my early 20s I still had long hair and a goatee and was into grunge/classic rock/hard rock and because I didn't like Kylie and Madonna was told by quite a few gay guys on the scene that I wasn't "truly gay" - whatever that means!

Yep, if you don't conform to the stereotype (a stereotype society often places on us, ironically) you can have problems fitting in.

nkav86

newinireland25 wrote:

I have the same problem.... I am a 26 years old girl, who is too afraid to go to any LGBT events... Still waiting for a miracle to find someone by "accident"

Same, well I'm 31, but still. Is it a case that femme women find it easier online? Less questions or comments like 'you don't look gay'.

When I was on POF I was surprised at the different types of gay women on there, I'm not sheltered I swear (!), when I went out on the scene I never saw as many different types of women that were genuinely looking for women. Not just a flirtation with the idea, one night thrill. It was mainly more butch/stereotypical looking gay women.

Bear in mind I was 18-25ish and almost always drunk on the scene, so I could be totally wrong!

newinireland25

I tried a while ago Tinder <dont judge>, but but but I guess not everyone liked my description about not being interested in threesomes and one night-stands. Serious me....

RagsOBrien

newinireland25 wrote: »

I tried a while ago Tinder <dont judge>, but but but I guess not everyone liked my description about not being interested in threesomes and one night-stands. Serious me....

Tinder either has women who are only on for the look or maybe curious, bots, straight or the ones I do get chatting to disappear once they figure I don't want a threesome, a ONS or they are just wasting time. I've found it impossible to meet anyone off it. Overall, think it's terrible and POF not much better?

Not sure how to meet anyone I guess but some of the LGBT events seem the best option. Although I do know someone who has great lukc on Tinder- don't know how she manages it to be honest. Are any of you going to the May 20th boards meetup? Seems a good place to start right? ( :

I also get told I don't look or act gay as well- prevailing problem for us it seems!

newinireland25

Two years ago, I was lucky, I met a honest and a very nice person there. I was in a happy relationship, but it wasn't in Ireland, but another country. But that is the past ^^

confusted

Boards meetup definitely seems like a good place to start. And now that I've googled VCC I know where it's on!

confusted

Just to say there's an event on in the Odeon Bar on Saturday 24 June organised by Running Amach on Meetup that could be worth going to. Might be some femme women there.

LegacyUser

I was wondering if there are any groups around the midlands for bi/lesbian women? Everything seems to be in the city. I can't travel often due to health and I often feel lonely and that I have no one who understands me.