Inward opening windows

munyt

Hi,

I'm wondering if anybody knows if there are any regulations against inward opening windows in Ireland? We are thinking of resourcing replacement windows for our house from another European country where inward opening windows is a standard. However, here, the opposite seems to be true.

Thank you!

Gumbo

No regulation against it.
Very common in Europe.

You have to be wary as you cannot put up curtains, or certain blinds afterwards that restrict the opening, especially on means of escape windows.

They still require the standard Part B items such as restrictors and no key locks.

munyt

kceire wrote: »

No regulation against it.
Very common in Europe.

You have to be wary as you cannot put up curtains, or certain blinds afterwards that restrict the opening, especially on means of escape windows.

They still require the standard Part B items such as restrictors and no key locks.

Thanks very much kceire, that's great news.

0lddog

Units @ hi level can be cleaned without risking life of window cleaner

Should be mandatory for above ground level (think even the Scots have got round to this as a reg)

Gumbo

0lddog wrote: »

Units @ hi level can be cleaned without risking life of window cleaner

Should be mandatory for above ground level (think even the Scots have got round to this as a reg)

Most new windows have a release hinge that allows you to clean the outside pane from within the room now a days.

I personally don't like inward opening windows and doors.

munyt

0lddog wrote: »

Units @ hi level can be cleaned without risking life of window cleaner

Should be mandatory for above ground level (think even the Scots have got round to this as a reg)

kceire wrote: »

Most new windows have a release hinge that allows you to clean the outside pane from within the room now a days.

I personally don't like inward opening windows and doors.

The easier cleaning of inward opening windows is probably the main advantage. I don't really have any strong objections to any type windows, at the moment it's the price that makes us think about inward opening ones.

Gumbo

munyt wrote: »

The easier cleaning of inward opening windows is probably the main advantage. I don't really have any strong objections to any type windows, at the moment it's the price that makes us think about inward opening ones.

Ask your partner if she (assuming you are a he) has any plans for blinds or curtains etc?
What will you fix curtain poles to? Or blind rails to?

munyt

kceire wrote: »

Ask your partner if she (assuming you are a he) has any plans for blinds or curtains etc?
What will you fix curtain poles to? Or blind rails to?

I'm she I hear people say there are certain issues with blinds etc for inward opening windows, but I'm not too fussy about it, I'll make it work with whatever suits the new windows best. Apparently there are new technologies for putting up the blinds to suit that type of windows.
Thanks again!

dusty207

Think they're called tilt and turn windows. In sunnier climes you can close the outer shutters and leave the windows open inside to give some ventilation during the day while being secure. Legit in Ireland.

Gumbo

dusty207 wrote: »

Think they're called tilt and turn windows. In sunnier climes you can close the outer shutters and leave the windows open inside to give some ventilation during the day while being secure. Legit in Ireland.

The problem is that the tilt projects into the reveal by about 3 inches. This rules out blinds etc, then to open the window, the blinds cannot be fixed anywhere in the reveal, so you fix them to the window. Destroying the frames in the process, then the windows don't open fully because the blinds hit the reveals!

dusty207

kceire wrote: »

The problem is that the tilt projects into the reveal by about 3 inches. This rules out blinds etc, then to open the window, the blinds cannot be fixed anywhere in the reveal, so you fix them to the window. Destroying the frames in the process, then the windows don't open fully because the blinds hit the reveals!

You are spot on in everything you say. I think the OP has to consider a few points.
1/ Price. Good prices from Poland etc, probably very good quality too.(Wood)?
2/ Practicality. All the points you raise.
3/ After a while you forget what you paid but are eternally annoyed by the problems mentioned in Point 2.

Metric Tensor

If you are using curtains with curtain rails fixed in the standard position above the window - not in the reveal - there is a lot more scope for tilt and turn windows.

I've seen some very nice T+T windows in my time so I definitely wouldn't rule them out.

In my experience they are slightly more susceptible to leaks because if the seal fails water flows inwards. With an outward opening window the frame of the opening section closes in on the frame giving a detail that's less likely to cause damage if it fails.

Combine the above with the fact that almost nowhere in continental Europe is subjected to the same level of wind-driven rain as Ireland - means that you need to be very sure of build quality and after sales service if you are importing tilt and turn windows.

Also, separately as a BER assessor I've had difficulty getting appropriate details from foreign manufacturers to allow me to prove that these windows allow the house to comply with the Building Regulations.

BUT - as above - I've seen some lovely T+T windows so I wish you the best with them!

fatty pang

kceire wrote: »

The problem is that the tilt projects into the reveal by about 3 inches. This rules out blinds etc, then to open the window, the blinds cannot be fixed anywhere in the reveal, so you fix them to the window. Destroying the frames in the process, then the windows don't open fully because the blinds hit the reveals!

There are blinds readily available that have been specifically designed for tilt & turn windows, that fit onto the sash and doesn't impede its movement either. Here's an example - http://blog.blinds-2go.co.uk/blinds-2go-top-picks-linen-champagne-tilt-turn-pleated-blind/

fatty pang

Metric Tensor wrote: »

In my experience they are slightly more susceptible to leaks because if the seal fails water flows inwards. With an outward opening window the frame of the opening section closes in on the frame giving a detail that's less likely to cause damage if it fails.

A ‘Stormsash’ style casement window as you describe with the gasket on the sash is actually more likely to leak under heavy wind-driven rain then a tilt turn window. The gasket on the tilt turn window will invariably be set further back into the frame, away from the front face of the window, and therefore most of the force will have dissipated to the point where there is not enough energy to force water past the gasket. Any tilt & turn window will have a drainage route for water at the bottom rail. In contrast the Stormsash gasket will be far more exposed to water with the full energy of the wind behind it and will penetrate through any weak points in the gasket. It will build up behind the gasket – and not having the energy to force its way back out - will eventually overflow into the interior. I would have concerns about large internally-glazed tilt & turn windows in locations with heavy wind-driven rain but that’s another discussion

Metric Tensor

I bow to most definite superior knowledge!

Metric Tensor

fatty pang wrote: »

I would have concerns about large internally-glazed tilt & turn windows in locations with heavy wind-driven rain but that’s another discussion

Would love to hear more ....

fatty pang

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Would love to hear more ....

Windows have an external and internal seal between the frame/glazing bead and the glazing unit. Seals, whether wet (silicone) or dry (EPDM gasket), are subject to degradation from sunlight and flexing caused by gusting wind. The larger the glazing unit the more pronounced the flexing will be and the subsequent stress on the seal. The seal by its nature has a finite durability. With the externally beaded window below (‘Danish’) any water that gets behind the external EPDM seal will then run down the face of the glass, fall onto the sloped bottom rail of the sash and drain away underneath the glazing bead. Furthermore, the open area underneath the glazing bead being ventilated promotes quick drying of the timber. This is the drained and ventilated principle. The internally beaded window (‘German’) relies on a silicone seal external seal. When water breaches the seal it will run down the face of the window and sit on the flat glazing rebate. This rebate should have ‘weep holes’ in the bottom rail at intervals to drain away any such water. If the weep holes are not close enough together, or of sufficient diameter, then capillary action will hold the water in situ - resulting in a substantial risk of the perimeter seal of the insulated glazing unit breaking down resulting in the formation of condensation within the glazing cavity.
This highlights one of the issues of using windows that have been designed to function well in a central Europe in a climate with severe and persistent wind-driven rain, as you have noted.

fatty pang

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I bow to most definite superior knowledge!

Well seeing as how you you are interested....
To illustrate the perceived performance paradox let’s look at two examples. Helpfully the BBA have conducted performance testing on an inward opening window and an outward opening window and subjected both windows to the same testing regime as part of the Agrément certification progress.

The outward opening window certificate can be found here
http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/CertificateFiles/51/5106PS1i1.pdf
Page 5 shows the frame profile with a ‘Stormsash’ (or covered joint profile) and internally beaded. You will note two gaskets. The external gasket, fixed into the sash, compresses against the external surface of the frame with a second gasket set into the frame and compressing against the rear of the sash. Test results (P.7) show this window remains watertight to 450 Pascals (Class 7A, BS EN12208). The size of the opening sash is 900 x 1200mm (P.5)

The inward opening window certificate can be found here
http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/CertificateFiles/44/4446ps1i2.pdf
Page 5 shows the frame profile to be an inward opening window (drained and ventilated design). You will note a single gasket set well back into the frame. Test results (P.7) show this window remains watertight to Class 9A (600 Pascals). The size of the opening sash is 1188 x 1788mm (P.4)

It is very unusual to stop a watertightness test at less than 600Pa, particularly so for such a relatively small opening sash. The only conceivable reason would be water ingress. The inward opening window in contrast that remained watertight to 600Pa is virtually twice the opening area of the outward opening window. The air permeability (leakage) rating is identical at Class 4. This is not surprising (except to some people who judge window performance on the basis of what their THERM models and Excel sheets tell them )

I would be of the opinion that the outer gasket has allowed water ingress. The water having entered the cavity behind the outer gasket cannot drain out due to the external air pressure. Water continues to be forced past the external gasket and the resultant pressure build up forces this water past the second gasket resulting in the test being halted.

‘Wood Windows: Designing for High Performance’ published by TRADA if you have a professional interest is well worth it. The book costs about £50.

0lddog

Metric Tensor wrote: »

.........Combine the above with the fact that almost nowhere in continental Europe is subjected to the same level of wind-driven rain as Ireland

Perhaps Scotland for starters ?

Apart from the ( great ) advantage of being able to clean them without risk to life and limb this arrangement opens up the option of external window shutters being opened and closed from within ( without the need for any fancy electromechanical gizmos )

Now I wonder just how one would work out the BER of a house with external shutters and inward opening windows

Metric Tensor

0lddog wrote: »

Perhaps Scotland for starters ?

Scotland is not in continental Europe!

You should have said Norway .. at least you could argue that Scandinavia is continental!

(Edit: I've never seen anyone import windows from Scotland for their house!)

Metric Tensor

Thanks very much for the detailed reply fatty pang. I very much appreciate the effort you put in to it for my education!

A quick - half related - follow up question:

What are your thoughts on outside vs internal bead and security?

fatty pang

Metric Tensor wrote: »

What are your thoughts on outside vs internal bead and security?

My opinion, from a strictly security perspective, would be that once the window or door has passed PAS 24 testing it is not important where the bead is. Some internal beads on PVC systems with toughened glazing units could be ‘bumped’ off from the outside if you know what you are doing. Many windows and doors on sale here meet this standard because they are on sale in the UK and the English Part Q recently mandated meeting this standard for ‘accessible’ windows and doors. AGS recommend it on the crime prevention pages of their website.
www.garda.ie/Documents/User/CP%20Info%20Sheet%20-%20HS3-%20Windows%20-%202015-12-01.pdf
http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/CP%20Info%20Sheet%20-%20HS2%20-%20Doors%20-%20Feb%2017.pdf
Inward opening windows are generally more secure – the hinges and locking points not being visible to attack. At a minimum I would strongly recommend one pane of laminated glass in all ground floor units. It won’t add a significant cost to a new window or door.

You may have heard of ‘Secured by Design’ (SBD). Licenced products have passed PAS24 testing and have an approved audit and Q/C system in place. The relevant EN standards – EN1627-1630 – do not include some typical attack techniques commonly in UK and Irish burglaries. For that reason SBD require certain additional testing for imported products tested to the EN standards in order to be licenced. It’s not unknown for suppliers to use the ‘SBD’ logo for certified components – handles locks etc – and insinuate the whole window or door is a Certified product. Plod, who administer the SBD scheme, takes a dim view of such activities when it’s brought to their attention in the UK. Obviously they have no jurisdiction to control such behaviour here.
One last thing – there is no such thing as a burglar-proof window despite them being advertised. There are merely varying degrees of resistance. A burglar will typically only want to spend a few minutes attacking a window or door and then will move on to an easier target. Rarely will they break the glass and risk leaving DNA evidence.