Issues with tenant leaving

beaner92 · 26-02-2017 9:36pm #1

My girlfriend and her friend signed lease a year ago to a 2 bed apartment. It is due to be renewed on the 15th of march. However due to financial constraints, her friend has to move out. And My gf asked me to take over the lease with her thats totally fine.

We offered her friend the option to move out on the first or the 15th( the day the lease expires). He said the 1st is fine.

So Her friend has decided to move out on the first of march which is also fine. My gf and I have decided to share a room And sublet the other room. And the new tenant is due to move in on the first. And has paid rent and is waiting on his current letting agency to return his deposit, at which point we are fine to give the deposit back to the guy who is leaving.

If you are still reading , heres where is gets messy. The guy who is moving out on the 1st has said to us he needs the deposit back the day he leaves in order to pay the deposit for his new apartment. I said to him, once we get the deposit from the new tenant we will give it to you. Otherwise call the letting agency.

And he says well if he doesn't get it back he will be keeping the keys to the house. This really annoyed me.

I have given word to the letting agency if they gave him the deposit back we an top it up ourselves otherwise we will give it to him once received from the new occupant.

*We have also confirmed from the new occupant that he should have the deposit together by the time he moves in or within 4-5 days of that date.

What do you think ?

jameorahiely · 26-02-2017 9:41pm

I would think the deposit should be given back the day he moves out. Check for damage etc and return it that day.

syndrome777 · 26-02-2017 9:43pm

the guy leaving have nothing to do with the guy you will be subletting, you/the agency/ll who ever, should give him his deposit back if nothing was broken and deal with new guy when he moves in.

Samuel T. Cogley · 26-02-2017 10:01pm

All perfectly reasonable. The delay in returning the deposit and him keeping the keys so long as he returns them once the deposit is paid over.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-02-2017 10:10pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote:

All perfectly reasonable. The delay in returning the deposit and him keeping the keys so long as he returns them once the deposit is paid over.

Ah here. It's normal for there to be a few days waiting for a deposit to. E returnef. Keys are always returned on the day the lease ends.

It's not normal to hold on to the keys after the end of the lease. They have zero right to the keys after the lease ends.

Samuel T. Cogley · 26-02-2017 10:13pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah here. It's normal for there to be a few days waiting for a deposit to. E returnef. Keys are always returned on the day the lease ends.

It's not normal to hold on to the keys after the end of the lease. They have zero right to the keys after the lease ends.

Leave it out, with the constant no return of deposits I'd be looking for some guarantee it wasn't going to take 6 weeks to check a room. If they want the keys back that day arrange to inspect the room that day.

beaner92 · 26-02-2017 10:20pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah here. It's normal for there to be a few days waiting for a deposit to. E returnef. Keys are always returned on the day the lease ends.

It's not normal to hold on to the keys after the end of the lease. They have zero right to the keys after the lease ends.

Yes well this was my girlfriends argument. If we were all to leave on the first the letting agency will not give us the deposit for at least a week if not 2 . So he should relax.

Furthermore my girlfriend was living with this same guy and his boyfriend up until they broke up. And she decided to take on a lease with this guy. it took 6 months to get 75% of her deposit back. And this guy had the balls to tell her not to chase his ex down for the deposit. That he will pay her back.

jameorahiely · 26-02-2017 10:22pm

From what I gather from your post op you don't intend paying a deposit when you move in. You are waiting on the newer tenant to pay when he "gets it together"

What if he doesn't get it together?
What if it takes him longer to "get it together"?

What if he changes his mind about moving in?

newacc2015 · 26-02-2017 10:32pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

All perfectly reasonable. The delay in returning the deposit and him keeping the keys so long as he returns them once the deposit is paid over.

Under the law, until the day you return the keys you are liable for the rent. The guy is entitled to keep the keys when he moves out, but OP tell the agent to deduct the few days rent from him

Irish tenants expect the deposit to be in an envelope the day they move out. I know from experience it only when you start to clean the room, etc that you notice damage, what needs replacing etc.

pilly · 26-02-2017 10:39pm

beaner92 wrote:

Furthermore my girlfriend was living with this same guy and his boyfriend up until they broke up. And she decided to take on a lease with this guy. it took 6 months to get 75% of her deposit back. And this guy had the balls to tell her not to chase his ex down for the deposit. That he will pay her back.

This whole bit doesn't make any sense??

jameorahiely · 26-02-2017 10:48pm

newacc2015 wrote: »

Under the law, until the day you return the keys you are liable for the rent. The guy is entitled to keep the keys when he moves out, but OP tell the agent to deduct the few days rent from him

Irish tenants expect the deposit to be in an envelope the day they move out. I know from experience it only when you start to clean the room, etc that you notice damage, what needs replacing etc.

That's not exclusive to Irish tenants. I've rented in various places on the continent and deposit was always returned on the day the tenancy ends after an inspection.

astrofool · 26-02-2017 10:50pm

When renting, I got the deposit back the day we returned the keys, we got it in the apartment after checking everything was in good condition, and after getting the final readings on the meters, before assigning them over to the landlord.

I don't understand why it doesn't always work this way, it leaves no confusion, no disputes, no chasing money, or disagreements on things being repaired due to damage etc.

If it's not being done that way, then it's generally one side trying to "get one over" on the other side by deception (or laziness).

beaner92 · 26-02-2017 11:16pm

jameorahiely wrote: »

From what I gather from your post op you don't intend paying a deposit when you move in. You are waiting on the newer tenant to pay when he "gets it together"

What if he doesn't get it together?
What if it takes him longer to "get it together"?

What if he changes his mind about moving in?

Well let's say for example the rent in 2000€

The gent moving in pays 1000€ deposit and 1000 rent .

As a result the letting agency still has the original deposit . All that's needed is to give the exiting tenant his deposit back.

I have paid my deposit of 500€ to my partner.

beaner92 · 26-02-2017 11:21pm

Quick question, should all this be handled by the estate agent? The whole deposit mess? Should this guy just go to the agency?

El_Duderino 09 · 26-02-2017 11:21pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote:

Leave it out, with the constant no return of deposits I'd be looking for some guarantee it wasn't going to take 6 weeks to check a room. If they want the keys back that day arrange to inspect the room that day.

Electronic transfers can take days to complete, that's normal. Holding on to keys after the end of a lease is not normal.

Holding on to keys implies access to the property, in which case the tenant hasn't fully moved out. I get that they want to hold to the keys as leverage, but handing over keys is part of moving out. What are they implying, that they might continue to use the keys and use the house until the deposit is returned?

OP could have the locks changed and deduct the cost from the deposit. Let them keep the keys and return the remainder of the deposit within a reasonable length of time.

jameorahiely · 26-02-2017 11:37pm

beaner92 wrote: »

Well let's say for example the rent in 2000€

The gent moving in pays 1000€ deposit and 1000 rent .

As a result the letting agency still has the original deposit . All that's needed is to give the exiting tenant his deposit back.

I have paid my deposit of 500€ to my partner.

So there is already half of the leavers deposit ready to give back.

beaner92 · 26-02-2017 11:58pm

jameorahiely wrote: »

So there is already half of the leavers deposit ready to give back.

totally, and we are ready to give him that, Literally offered him the cash this afternoon. and told him we would give him the rest when the new guy drops it off. Wants all or nothing.

Books4you · 27-02-2017 12:04am

If you do the inspection and all is fine just give him back his deposit. If it was the other way round you'd be on here with a thread saying 'they won't give me my deposit back'

beaner92 · 27-02-2017 12:11am

Books4you wrote: »

If you do the inspection and all is fine just give him back his deposit. If it was the other way round you'd be on here with a thread saying 'they won't give me my deposit back'

I wouldn't, 1. the move out date hasn't come,
2. i don't expect to receive my deposit back from anywhere i rent for at least for 2 weeks after I leave. Its been my general experience renting since moving up here for uni.

jameorahiely · 27-02-2017 12:18am

beaner92 wrote: »

I wouldn't, 1. the move out date hasn't come,
2. i don't expect to receive my deposit back from anywhere i rent for at least for 2 weeks after I leave. Its been my general experience renting since moving up here for uni.

So you have half of the deposit (the deposit you paid) amd in your OP you say the new tenant moving in has already paid rent, what valid reason do you have for withholding the leavers deposit?

Why has the sublettter paid rent already and not the deposit?
It's not their issue that you chose to sublet it to someone with no deposit ready

beaner92 · 27-02-2017 12:27am

jameorahiely wrote: »

So you have half of the deposit (the deposit you paid) amd in your OP you say the new tenant moving in has already paid rent, what valid reason do you have for withholding the leavers deposit?

Why has the sublettter paid rent already and not the deposit?
It's not their issue that you chose to sublet it to someone with no deposit ready

Rent for march has already been paid to the letting agent.
plus when we interview subletters he was the best fit, we both got along with him. And he will have the deposit ready within days of moving in, im sure of it.

I dont think its too much to ask to wait a few days . Its also not my issue that the gent leaving is a terrible planner and cant cover himself for a few days.

It is not custom to receive your deposit on the same day you leave. Most people i know have said the same. So come Wednesday ill tell him for every day he holds the key i deduct a days rent.

jameorahiely · 27-02-2017 12:37am

beaner92 wrote: »

Rent for march has already been paid to the letting agent.
plus when we interview subletters he was the best fit, we both got along with him. And he will have the deposit ready within days of moving in, im sure of it.

I dont think its too much to ask to wait a few days . Its also not my issue that the gent leaving is a terrible planner and cant cover himself for a few days.

It is not custom to receive your deposit on the same day you leave. Most people i know have said the same. So come Wednesday ill tell him for every day he holds the key i deduct a days rent.

The same could be said about your new subletter being a terrible planner.....
And you intend having 2 people paying rent for the same room?

beaner92 · 27-02-2017 12:46am

jameorahiely wrote: »

The same could be said about your new subletter being a terrible planner.....
And you intend having 2 people paying rent for the same room?

I agree, but due to the case he made when he viewed and after I verified the situation, i've being in the same spot which is why we gave him the time to sort it out.

His references were perfect and he and I had rugby schools connections, he deserved the slack.

The gent leaving is undeserving of any gwg from me due to prior experiences.

I am not charging 2 on 1 room, how ever For everyday he holds the key I will deduct the rent from the deposit. That I believe is the best solution for all involved.

jameorahiely · 27-02-2017 1:34am

beaner92 wrote: »

I agree, but due to the case he made when he viewed and after I verified the situation, i've being in the same spot which is why we gave him the time to sort it out.

His references were perfect and he and I had rugby schools connections, he deserved the slack.

The gent leaving is undeserving of any gwg from me due to prior experiences.

I am not charging 2 on 1 room, how ever For everyday he holds the key I will deduct the rent from the deposit. That I believe is the best solution for all involved.

You would be charging 2 on one 1 room. Whose going to keep the money from the rent you are charging him for everyday he holds the key? You?

beaner92 · 27-02-2017 1:39am

jameorahiely wrote: »

You would be charging 2 on one 1 room. Whose going to keep the money from the rent you are charging him for everyday he holds the key? You?

Bro damn ! Well What do you want me to say. I'll donate it to a homeless shelter?

If he wants his deposit, leave the key. And he'll get it back.once we get it. Those are my terms other wise key the key till I get it back and I'll deduct the rent from the deposit end of .

TheChizler · 27-02-2017 1:42am

How does him having a key cause you a loss equal to a day's rent? If there's no damage or mess for you to clean he deserves his entire deposit back. You can't just introduce fines on an ad-hoc basis.

You were saying he's poor at planning for needing his deposit quickly, but equally, and perhaps more deservedly you could blame the person who spent his original deposit and now needs the new one to replace it instead of keeping it in escrow to give it back to him when he moves out. That's not his problem.

jameorahiely · 27-02-2017 1:48am

beaner92 wrote: »

Bro damn ! Well What do you want me to say. I'll donate it to a homeless shelter?

If he wants his deposit, leave the key. And he'll get it back.once we get it. Those are my terms other wise key the key till I get it back and I'll deduct the rent from the deposit end of .

Why do you get to keep the money? That's dodgy. I hope you have an explanation ready for the rtb.

beaner92 · 27-02-2017 1:48am

TheChizler wrote: »

How does him having a key cause you a loss equal to a day's rent? If there's no damage or mess for you to clean he deserves his entire deposit back. You can't just introduce fines on an ad-hoc basis.

You were saying he's poor at planning for needing his deposit quickly, but equally, and perhaps more deservedly you could blame the person who spent his original deposit and now needs the new one to replace it instead of keeping it in escrow to give it back to him when he moves out. That's not his problem.

I don't feel comfortable with him having a key being able to enter the house when I'm not there or no one is around. It's a penalty imo. I'll tell him this tomorrow.
It's a letting agents running the apartment he and my girlfriend signed the lease together. But he doesn't want to renew . THe letting agent has the full deposit . I did tell him try to go the the letting agent and collect but it's likely they will probably say no. Sort it out among yourselves. And he will have to agree to my terms .

jameorahiely · 27-02-2017 1:51am

<quote snipped>

Deep or not, what you suggest doing is illegal btw
You can't just fine him lol

jameorahiely · 27-02-2017 1:57am

<quote snipped>

He gets his deposit, you get you keys

Everyone's happy

beaner92 · 27-02-2017 2:01am

jameorahiely wrote: »

He gets his deposit, you get you keys

Everyone's happy

That's what I want . But we are at the mercy of the new tenant . Hopefully he has it on the 1st if not . Oh well. We will just have to see

TheChizler · 27-02-2017 2:01am

Since you've clarified that it's the letting agent he should be getting the deposit from. You still have no business fining him though, especially as his lease wasn't with you it's with the letting agent/landlord.

What should really happen since the lease is being reassigned to you is: the agent should give him back his deposit once they've inspected, you give the letting agent your deposit to complete the lease reassignment, and the new housemate you're subletting to gives you his deposit. Taking a shortcut is asking for trouble. He has every right to get his deposit directly from the agent even if you give him money since he only has a contract with them, so I'd just stay out of it.

If you do decide to shortcut the process his deposit should really come from your portion by rights, as you are replacing him on the lease, not the new subletee. And presumably your portion is available immediately?

beaner92 · 27-02-2017 2:06am

TheChizler wrote: »

Since you've clarified that it's the letting agent he should be getting the deposit from. You still have no business fining him though, especially as his lease wasn't with you it's with the letting agent/landlord.

What should really happen since the lease is being reassigned to you is: the agent should give him back his deposit once they've inspected, you give the letting agent your deposit to complete the lease reassignment, and the new housemate you're subletting to gives you his deposit. Taking a shortcut is asking for trouble. He has every right to get his deposit directly from the agent even if you give hime money since he only has a contract with them, so I'd just stay out of it.

Ok fair. I proposed this to the letting agent. They said they will send a new contract at the end of the march. Because on the lease they signed , it expires on the 15/03. But the guy leaving doesn't want to wait till the 15th or at the end of the month when the new tenants sign the lease to get money from the letting agent.

riffmongous · 27-02-2017 2:09am

beaner92 wrote: »

I don't feel comfortable with him having a key being able to enter the house when I'm not there or no one is around. It's a penalty imo. I'll tell him this tomorrow.
It's a letting agents running the apartment he and my girlfriend signed the lease together. But he doesn't want to renew . THe letting agent has the full deposit . I did tell him try to go the the letting agent and collect but it's likely they will probably say no. Sort it out among yourselves. And he will have to agree to my terms .

Why not? He's been living there the past while already. Now if you decide to hold on to his deposit, make deductions and create a lot of bad feeling then you should be worried alright.

TheChizler · 27-02-2017 2:10am

A lease can be reassigned at any time, and an email is sufficient in terms of paperwork. Actually do you have any reason to accept the new lease? Normally there's very little if no advantage from the tenant's point of view.

beaner92 · 27-02-2017 2:12am

riffmongous wrote: »

Why not? He's been living there the past while already. Now if you decide to hold on to his deposit, make deductions and create a lot of bad feeling then you should be worried alright.

I don't want to hold his deposit. Damn lol. all he has to do is leave the keys and leave . The day he stops paying rent .

beaner92 · 27-02-2017 2:15am

TheChizler wrote: »

A lease can be reassigned at any time, and an email is sufficient in terms of paperwork. Actually do you have any reason to accept the new lease? Normally there's very little if no advantage from the tenant's point of view.

I'd sign a lease now get letting agent to pay him ! But the agency won't send one till end of march.

Thanks for you input folks greatly appreciated

the_syco · 27-02-2017 4:41am

How much is a new set of lock & keys? It'd be coming out of his deposit, as he didn't return them when he left the apartment.

El_Duderino 09 · 27-02-2017 7:07am

beaner92 wrote:

I don't feel comfortable with him having a key being able to enter the house when I'm not there or no one is around. It's a penalty imo. I'll tell him this tomorrow. It's a letting agents running the apartment he and my girlfriend signed the lease together. But he doesn't want to renew . THe letting agent has the full deposit . I did tell him try to go the the letting agent and collect but it's likely they will probably say no. Sort it out among yourselves. And he will have to agree to my terms .

Change the lock and deduct the cost. But you can't profit from deducting it

If he's getting arsey, just let him go through the letting agent and have nothing more to do with it.

jameorahiely · 27-02-2017 8:34am

The thing about changing the locks on the 1st is the guys lease is until the 15th. Illegal evictiom and no room for the new lad moving in until the 15th will be nice

Samuel T. Cogley · 27-02-2017 9:05am

newacc2015 wrote: »

Under the law, until the day you return the keys you are liable for the rent. The guy is entitled to keep the keys when he moves out, but OP tell the agent to deduct the few days rent from him

Irish tenants expect the deposit to be in an envelope the day they move out. I know from experience it only when you start to clean the room, etc that you notice damage, what needs replacing etc.

Is this a licensee agreement or a lease. If it's a licensee agreement could you point me to the case law if it's a lease the provision in the RTA that requires keys to be returned?

It might very well be in the lease but as far as I know that's the only way such a situation would be a legal requirement, under contract. I stand to be corrected though.

I hand keys over the moment I get a deposit and don't expect them back until that deposit is returned.

El_Duderino 09 · 27-02-2017 9:42am

jameorahiely wrote:

The thing about changing the locks on the 1st is the guys lease is until the 15th. Illegal evictiom and no room for the new lad moving in until the 15th will be nice

They're both agreeing to terminate the lease on the 1st. Otherwise he pays until the 15th and shouldn't expect his deposit returned until the 15th - with a few days leeway for arranging the return.

I don't know why the tenant is getting involved with returning the deposit at all. Why not just let him deal with the estate agent?

27-02-2017 10:10am

It's fairly standard in houseshares to have to wait for the next person moving in to hand you the deposit, certainly in my experience anyway. This of course means there could be a little time before you get it if the new person isn't moving in straight away.

jameorahiely · 27-02-2017 1:44pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

They're both agreeing to terminate the lease on the 1st. Otherwise he pays until the 15th and shouldn't expect his deposit returned until the 15th - with a few days leeway for arranging the return.

I don't know why the tenant is getting involved with returning the deposit at all. Why not just let him deal with the estate agent?

If the OP has that in writing well then that's something. The rent is already paid for march so the estate agent isn't going to care if it was the departer or who gave it. It would be up to the new subletter to chase the departer for the refund.

The OP decided to select someone for the room who didn't have a deposit ready. The departer could find someone with the deposit ready to move in and replace them.

I don't know why the estate agent isn't dealing with this either

Harold Creamy Earth wrote: »

It's fairly standard in houseshares to have to wait for the next person moving in to hand you the deposit, certainly in my experience anyway. This of course means there could be a little time before you get it if the new person isn't moving in straight away.

But the person is moving in straight away, they just don't have their deposit together

the_syco · 27-02-2017 4:19pm

beaner92 wrote: »

*We have also confirmed from the new occupant that he should have the deposit together by the time he moves in or within 4-5 days of that date.

beaner92 wrote: »

Quick question, should all this be handled by the estate agent? The whole deposit mess? Should this guy just go to the agency?

At this stage, I thing it should be handled by the agency, as otherwise you may be the ones to lose out.

chocfan · 27-02-2017 11:43pm

Somebody else may have already suggested this but to me, the most obvious solution is that you (beaner92) just pays your whole deposit to the guy leaving.

I think you mentioned you had given your OH 500 already to cover some or all of it. Why not just pay it all and just give it to him? Then agree with the letting agency that the deposit he originally paid is now yours when you move out eventually

Can't really criticise him wanting his cash back when you're getting away with only paying a portion of yours

pilly · 27-02-2017 11:59pm

chocfan wrote:

Can't really criticise him wanting his cash back when you're getting away with only paying a portion of yours

I presume OP is only paying 500 cause he's sharing a bedroom?

chocfan · 28-02-2017 12:04am

Well that's fair enough and makes sense

I know he has offered to pay the flatmate that 500 and I think he should definitely do that but himself and his OH agreed to take on this other guy even though he hasn't a deposit paid. Instead, they chose to allow him to pay rent as it suited them because the rent for the up coming month was due.

The fairest thing would have been to take money off the new flatmate (whatever amount they had agreed), given the current flatmate his deposit out of it and then come up with the extra that they might have needed to cover the upcoming rent while waiting on the deposit from the new flatmate.

A bit much to be having a go off this guy for not having the means to support himself while they chose to support themselves through agreeing to allow the new guy to be late with the deposit but using his funds to pay the rent rather than refunding the deposit to the current flatmate

El_Duderino 09 · 28-02-2017 8:09am

chocfan wrote:

Somebody else may have already suggested this but to me, the most obvious solution is that you (beaner92) just pays your whole deposit to the guy leaving.

There's no way I'd leave myself out of pocket, relying on the word of someone I don't know to reimburse me. Let him go through the letting agency to get his deposit back. If he has to stay and pay until the 15th, that's part of the problem he created. I bet he can work something out until he gets his deposit back - borrow for his own deposit from his own credit card for example.

As I said, if someone has to be in debit here, it wouldn't be me for even one day

Issues with tenant leaving

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