Old Wall + New Raised Fence + Wind = Morning Surprise :(

cormie

My friend got their own place a few months ago and wanted to raise the boundary wall slightly with blocks as they've big dogs, just to be extra sure they won't try jump the wall if they see a cat or the likes.

The boundary connects to a few different neighbours so they had to ask each neighbour if they were ok with them raising it, but one section is between a neighbour who for years had large trees along the perimeter of the wall on their side, which had to be cut down a few years ago as the wall was being weakened by the growth. They decided not to use blocks here and only 3 days ago just did a bit of raised fencing.

This is what was woken up to this morning after the wind last night:

Photos: http://imgur.com/a/DTPga

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf5h91z9FAU

You can see from the video how unstable the wall actually was. I'm not sure if it was only a matter of time before a big enough wind came and blew it down, perhaps it would have even blown down in last nights wind without the fence having been put up and it's just horrible timing on my friend that they put up a fence when it would have eventually blown down anyway with any strong wind.

My friend is assuming all blame will be put on them due to the fence. They had to rush off to work so didn't have time to chat with the neighbours so I thought I'd post here for what may be the possible outcomes.

Thankfully they started a new home insurance policy only last week, but I'm not sure if this would fall under the "Act of God" get out clause? There's also a €500 excess.

Any advice would be really appreciated!

drunkmonkey

What did he use superglue?

mloc123

Looks like a fairly long run of wall without many double blocked pillars for support.

oppenheimer1

100mm block on edge is not suitable for a garden wall of that height.

The but he added to the top certainly wouldn't have helped

Metric Tensor

Yeah. Wall was too high for the block on edge used and the pillars were too small and too far apart. The new extra bit on top only made it worse ... as did taking down the protective trees.

Having said that the mortar layers don't look too well bonded to the blocks either so it possibly wasn't a super high quality of build either.

I'd say there are thousands of walls all over the country that are like this or worse...

Calahonda52

Concrete built is better built:D

furandfeather

They look like light weight blocks?

dmaprelude

I woke up to this, this morning

cormie

Ahw no way, we feel your pain How bad were winds last night on a scale of 1-10 for Ireland does anyone know?

It seems everyone is in agreement that the wall wasn't build properly in the first place from what I can see above?

Any suggestions as to how to approach it with the neighbours? My friend only moved in a few months ago, the neighbours have been there probably 30 years plus. Any ideas who should bear the responsibility? I mean if my friend didn't put the fence up, surely most of it would be the responsibility of the neighbour and it would have probably some day blown down anyway?

I'm guessing the fence didn't help, would it have happened without it, I don't know, but perhaps it only sped up the inevitable?

The neighbour just called to them between me writing this, he was saying most of of the trees were cut down 7 years ago and the last 4 were removed about 4 years ago and it's been standing since. He thinks bolting the fence weakened it. My friend wasn't in at the time so no talk of responsibility etc.


Any ideas on how to rebuild it? I'm guessing:

Knock down the rest of the wall
Dig new foundations
lay new blockwork?

Would it be possible to re-use the blocks that have fallen? What about cleaning the old mortar off? It'd probably take a long time to clean each block though?

fepper

Looks like timber on top would catch more wind and add more pressure on wall but wall looks very weak anyway

sydthebeat

proper piers lads !!!!

BudEliJackson

Hi all,


can anybody advise on how to fix that wall fast and as low cost as possible? can old blocks be re-used or should we order new blocks? Is there any special way to lay blocks in order to make wall more stable? Can you suggest anybody who could do that kind of asap- this weekend? It is really urgent as myself and neighbours have dogs.

PS- I am friend Cormie is referring to and the wall is now in my garden in bits

oppenheimer1

BudEliJackson wrote: »

Hi all,


can anybody advise on how to fix that wall fast and as low cost as possible? can old blocks be re-used or should we order new blocks? Is there any special way to lay blocks in order to make wall more stable? Can you suggest anybody who could do that kind of asap- this weekend? It is really urgent as myself and neighbours have dogs.

PS- I am friend Cormie is referring to and the wall is now in my garden in bits

Some good advice on garden walls here.
http://www.garden.ie/gardendesign.aspx?id=477

Cheapest way to fix that, (as Donald Trump will soon find out) is to build a big beautiful fence.

cormie

dmaprelude wrote: »

I woke up to this, this morning

Can I ask, how long has that wall been standing without any structural changes? Has it lasted through storms for the last 7 years without anything being done to it and the wind last night was the first in 7 years to blow it down?



Folks, can anyone advise how to go about this with regards to insurance etc? Between the two neighbours, who calls their insurance? Does each neighbour call their insurance and their own assessor come out and decides if the fault is with their customer or the neighbour?

If one of the neighbours chooses to pay to get it built before an assessor comes, is it impossible to then get the insurance to pay for it?

Johnnyhpipe

Christ almighty! The put a sail on top of the wall without any design consideration...

Whoever did this should be shot!

cormie

Called to the neighbour and before we mentioned about who pays etc, they said we go 50/50, so probably not going to bother with insurance?

Would anyone have any idea what kind of cost it would be?

DOCARCH

cormie wrote: »

Called to the neighbour and before we mentioned about who pays etc, they said we go 50/50, so probably not going to bother with insurance?

Who added the fence to the top of the wall?

cormie

My friend, but I guess there's no way to know if it would have eventually fallen without the fence being added?

dmaprelude

cormie wrote: »

Can I ask, how long has that wall been standing without any structural changes? Has it lasted through storms for the last 7 years without anything being done to it and the wind last night was the first in 7 years to blow it down?

Has only been up for 4 years, next door put the fence up on it, but I still don't think it should have come down, builder is to come look at it today.

Johnnyhpipe

cormie wrote: »

My friend, but I guess there's no way to know if it would have eventually fallen without the fence being added?

A structural engineer could have analysed it and designed an appropriate solution. Too late now but at least nobody was hurt.

cormie

Hey folks,

The wall is still down and have gotten the following quotes:

First guy oferred 2 solutions, we clean the blocks and they build the wall same way as it was with piers on both sides from the blocks that we have, will be 500e, we supply all material or second option is that they will also clean the blocks which would then be 750e

Second guy quoted really high, whole wall from cavity blocks with widened foundation for 3200, he said he would supply all material. He wouldn't be using the existing blocks and I'm not sure if the quote includes disposal of old blocks (probably 2 skips worth, about €500 worth)? He said he wouldn't reuse the existing blocks.

Third guy, 1400 e labour only, we will supply all material, they will take remaining wall down, clean the blocks, the foundation will be widened, 4 layers of old blocks, but laying flat down, then cavity blocks, then last row of the new blocks to close over cavities, wall would be 9 blocks high at the end. They provided the following shopping list:
480 hollow blocks for wall.
54-4" blocks for 6 pelars
52-4" blocks for last cors
3T bulhding sand.
1T of gravel
20 bags of cement
5L motarsizer.

I'm guessing the materials will push it over €2,000 total


Both the second and third guy said there's no point in building it without cavity and widening foundation if it's to be 9 or 10 blocks high that it would just blow down again, they both said it wasn't built with enough piers to begin with and that it would also need a 10mm expansion joint in the middle.

We're leaning towards the third guy, but waiting on the neighbour to check with their uncle who's a builder and may be able to do it, or recommend someone.

Just want to make sure the above quotes and descriptions are ok and that it does indeed need to be a widened foundation with flat or cavity blocks so that it won't blow down again?

Any help would be great!

Johnnyhpipe

Is this your wall or your friend's wall?

Anyway, builder No. 1 is for some reason going to rebuild the wall using the same blocks, same foundation and same detail? Is he aware that that exact detail has just collapsed..? I'm at a loss trying to understand that approach.

The other two seem to have some understanding of what they're at. But I would like to know that there is at least some design basis behind the wall construction if it were me.

cormie

It's my friends wall, I'm just trying to help get it sorted with them

The neighbours uncle came to have a look last night and said what they would do would be:

Knock existing blocks
clean all blocks
check existing foundation and see if any cracks etc and if so, these parts would need to be dug up and redone
They said it wasn't necessary to widen foundation and that they could build the wall 9 or 10 blocks high without needing cavity or any laying flat, but to add more pillars, and stagger them between my friends garden and the neighbours garden every 9 blocks (around 2m) and that they would dig a foundation for each pillar and do an expansion joint in the middle, with a pillar on each side, so two pillars right beside eachother with a 10mm gap, so it's essentially two separate walls.

He said if it was build like this 9 or 10 high it'd never blow down again and there'd be far less materials and labour needed?

oppenheimer1

cormie wrote: »

It's my friends wall, I'm just trying to help get it sorted with them

The neighbours uncle came to have a look last night and said what they would do would be:

Knock existing blocks
clean all blocks
check existing foundation and see if any cracks etc and if so, these parts would need to be dug up and redone
They said it wasn't necessary to widen foundation and that they could build the wall 9 or 10 blocks high without needing cavity or any laying flat, but to add more pillars, and stagger them between my friends garden and the neighbours garden every 9 blocks (around 2m) and that they would dig a foundation for each pillar and do an expansion joint in the middle, with a pillar on each side, so two pillars right beside eachother with a 10mm gap, so it's essentially two separate walls.

He said if it was build like this 9 or 10 high it'd never blow down again and there'd be far less materials and labour needed?

A 2m high wall improperly designed and constructed is dangerous.

You've been given plenty of conflicting advice and I would ignore all of it. You would be best engaging a professional to design a high wall, it shouldn't be expensive for a single element €250-500.

Any other approach is just guesswork.

cormie

I've gotten advice from a relative who is an architectural engineer and has suggested to go with the third guys quote:

1400 e labour only, we will supply all material, they will take remaining wall down, clean the blocks, the foundation will be widened, 4 layers of old blocks, but laying flat down, then cavity blocks, then last row of the new blocks to close over cavities, wall would be 9 blocks high at the end. They provided the following shopping list:
480 hollow blocks for wall.
54-4" blocks for 6 pelars
52-4" blocks for last cors
3T bulhding sand.
1T of gravel
20 bags of cement
5L motarsizer.

He said there's no point in building it without cavity and widening foundation if it's to be 9 or 10 blocks high that it would just blow down again and it wasn't built with enough piers to begin with and that it would also need a 10mm expansion joint in the middle.

He actually dropped the labour cost to €1,250 and we got a price of €846 for the shopping list:

480 hollow blocks for wall. - 552eur
54-4" blocks for 6 pelars + 52-4" blocks for last cors- 106 blocks - 64eur
3T bulhding sand. - 90e
1T of gravel - 30eur
20 bags of cement - 100e
5L motarsizer. - 10eur

Materials: €846

TOTAL: €2,096


Seems like a huge amount of hassle so far just for a garden wall :eek:

cormie

cormie wrote: »

I've gotten advice from a relative who is an architectural engineer and has suggested to go with the third guys quote:



He actually dropped the labour cost to €1,250 and we got a price of €846 for the shopping list:

480 hollow blocks for wall. - 552eur
54-4" blocks for 6 pelars + 52-4" blocks for last cors- 106 blocks - 64eur
3T bulhding sand. - 90e
1T of gravel - 30eur
20 bags of cement - 100e
5L motarsizer. - 10eur

Materials: €846

TOTAL: €2,096


Seems like a huge amount of hassle so far just for a garden wall :eek:

Was Planning Permission gotten? I think it would be needed for a wall that high.