MSc graduate advice

scrapsmac

Hi Folks,

I'm currently sitting an MSc in Software Development (graduating in Sept 2017), after coming from a non-IT background. I'm getting on really well with it and now I'm at the stage of looking out for jobs come graduation.

I'm really keen to get into a smaller company where I can gain exposure to a wider variety of technologies. I'm in my late twenties and have a few years of office work under my belt.

Trouble is, there seems to be a feeling on our course that the only roles which we'll be eligible for will be with larger corporate style IT houses. I've no problem with this and will stay open minded but obviously my preference is for a smaller outfit.

Any truth to this or any thoughts to where I should be looking / my approach?

Thanks I really appreciate all the advice given out here on boards!

a fat guy

This is a conversion course right?

scrapsmac

a fat guy wrote: »

This is a conversion course right?

Yep!

Talisman

I would think that the answer depends on what modules you have chosen to do on your course. Did you choose your modules to target a particular sector of industry?

a fat guy

They say that a bit in some threads, how ye don't get dev roles. But one of the conversions course people in my old place of work ended up as a true blue software engineer in our quite small (15 people?) telecomms business.

scrapsmac

We are learning java mostly but I have tried to learn a bit of python in my own spare time. Module choices were limited to semester 2 - I have tried to keep all avenues open with regard to industry so I am learning testing and verification and web/mobile development (with a focus on android).

I have absolutely nothing against larger companies but I have just heard that sometimes you gain a wider exposure in a smaller outfit.

14ned

scrapsmac wrote: »

Trouble is, there seems to be a feeling on our course that the only roles which we'll be eligible for will be with larger corporate style IT houses. I've no problem with this and will stay open minded but obviously my preference is for a smaller outfit.

Any truth to this or any thoughts to where I should be looking / my approach?

I think it's much more the case that the large corporates have a well understood wishlist for graduate programmers, so courses naturally aim for those. Smaller companies have a much wider gamut of wishes, and in particular they generally want more commercial experience because they don't have the resources to train up graduates.

That said, your additional maturity goes a very long way with small businesses. They'll take a fresh graduate like you with a bit of cop on long before a younger person still interested in nightclubbing during weeknights etc.

I think you just need to get out there and find the small businesses with needs to be fulfilled and convince them to hire you. You have plenty of natural advantages over the competition, so now it's just a question of networking, networking, networking until you land a role.

Niall

scrapsmac

14ned wrote: »

I think it's much more the case that the large corporates have a well understood wishlist for graduate programmers, so courses naturally aim for those. Smaller companies have a much wider gamut of wishes, and in particular they generally want more commercial experience because they don't have the resources to train up graduates.

That said, your additional maturity goes a very long way with small businesses. They'll take a fresh graduate like you with a bit of cop on long before a younger person still interested in nightclubbing during weeknights etc.

I think you just need to get out there and find the small businesses with needs to be fulfilled and convince them to hire you. You have plenty of natural advantages over the competition, so now it's just a question of networking, networking, networking until you land a role.

Niall

Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate this!

BrokenArrows

One thing two of my friends have experienced over the last few years in a similar position to you.

Being hired as a Junior Java Developer with the promise of training but the employer has you spending 95% of your time doing non development work and the remainder being menial bug fixing of minor issues.

Try and get some concrete promises (in the contract if possible) about training. Try and get information about what exactly their plan is for you. If they're taking on a junior and dont have a plan on how to upskill you then its not a great sign.

14ned

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Being hired as a Junior Java Developer with the promise of training but the employer has you spending 95% of your time doing non development work and the remainder being menial bug fixing of minor issues.

To be honest, that's also a lot of contracting work, especially onsite stuff. Difference is you're getting well paid for it.

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Try and get some concrete promises (in the contract if possible) about training. Try and get information about what exactly their plan is for you. If they're taking on a junior and dont have a plan on how to upskill you then its not a great sign.

It's not tax advantageous like it is in the US for employers to significantly train employees in Ireland. It's also not a cultural norm here, unlike in Continental Europe. The expectation is that an employer will train you just enough to make you useful to them, but not enough to increase your worth (else you'd leave or want more pay). Here, non-contractual promises of training are usually meaningless and are a pure recruitment tactic for those naive enough to believe them.

Generally it's on you alone to upskill yourself. An employer can not get in your way on that e.g. permit unpaid time off so you can attend conferences. They might even support you by making it a salary paid week, or god forbid, actually pay for the conference (this is rare). But some employers can and will go out of their way to stop you attending a conference because they really don't want you to upskill past what they're "training" you in. I've heard of outright bans i.e. if you attend that conference you will receive an official written warning and you will lose that quarter's bonus. Even though EU labour law makes that illegal, good luck doing something about it.

Niall

Royale with Cheese

I did a conversion course Msc and went on to Accenture Technology's graduate program immediately after finishing. After being stuck in test for 6 months I got my first dev role working with .Net (I'd done nearly everything through java in college), and continued on doing that for another 4 years on various different projects across a couple of different client sites. I'm now working as an independent .Net contractor and I guess would be getting towards the salary ceiling for what you can get doing pure dev work in Dublin at the moment.

I wouldn't recommend Accenture to anyone bar graduates, but as unhappy as I was there at times, looking back at it I got a pretty good education. After the initial testing role, I was just thrown dev work, and once I'd shown I could handle it they gave me some more complex stuff. Nearly everyone is trying to get up the ladder, the more senior devs probably want to move into management so are often more than happy to pass their technical work down the chain. Senior devs who don't want to move into management usually leave, so there is often a space to be filled that management will be more than happy to fill with a cheaper junior dev if they think he/she are up to the task. I ended up leading my own small team of developers about two years after graduating. I also switched the client site I was working on about half way through, which was like completely starting over. That was probably the best thing that could have happened to me, as I got exposure to completely different projects. It also taught me I was nowhere near as good as I thought I was.

Maybe it's just a personal thing but I'm not particularly bothered with classroom based learning (I was sent on a couple of training courses in my time there), I find learning on the job far more valuable. I'm sure there will come a time when my skill set will start to become a little dated and it may become a necessity for me, but until then I'm happy to leave it. I couldn't tell you anything about smaller software houses as even since I've moved on I've worked in solely large enterprise roles. But I thought the above might give you an idea of how just about the most corporate place around can give you a good start in software development.

Hollister11

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

I did a conversion course Msc and went on to Accenture Technology's graduate program immediately after finishing. After being stuck in test for 6 months I got my first dev role working with .Net (I'd done nearly everything through java in college), and continued on doing that for another 4 years on various different projects across a couple of different client sites. I'm now working as an independent .Net contractor and I guess would be getting towards the salary ceiling for what you can get doing pure dev work in Dublin at the moment.

I wouldn't recommend Accenture to anyone bar graduates, but as unhappy as I was there at times, looking back at it I got a pretty good education. After the initial testing role, I was just thrown dev work, and once I'd shown I could handle it they gave me some more complex stuff. Nearly everyone is trying to get up the ladder, the more senior devs probably want to move into management so are often more than happy to pass their technical work down the chain. Senior devs who don't want to move into management usually leave, so there is often a space to be filled that management will be more than happy to fill with a cheaper junior dev if they think he/she are up to the task. I ended up leading my own small team of developers about two years after graduating. I also switched the client site I was working on about half way through, which was like completely starting over. That was probably the best thing that could have happened to me, as I got exposure to completely different projects. It also taught me I was nowhere near as good as I thought I was.

Maybe it's just a personal thing but I'm not particularly bothered with classroom based learning (I was sent on a couple of training courses in my time there), I find learning on the job far more valuable. I'm sure there will come a time when my skill set will start to become a little dated and it may become a necessity for me, but until then I'm happy to leave it. I couldn't tell you anything about smaller software houses as even since I've moved on I've worked in solely large enterprise roles. But I thought the above might give you an idea of how just about the most corporate place around can give you a good start in software development.

Is it true you need 400 LC points to get a graduate job at accenture.

Royale with Cheese

It was 300 for technology (dev work) and 400 for what they'd call consulting when I was interviewing with them. The consulting career path would be testing --> business analyst --> project manager -- > sales. This was seven years ago though so the points requirements could well have changed in that time.

LC2017

400 is the minimum for both consulting and the technology analyst roles.

scrapsmac

Thanks for all the advice! It is much appreciated and has given me some food for thought.

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

BrokenArrows

LC2017 wrote: »

400 is the minimum for both consulting and the technology analyst roles.

They seriously still care about the LC results once you have graduated?
Thats bazaar. Surely its the degree results they should be concerned about.

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

beauf

Some places have very old fashioned HR. Colleges, and PS seem to insist on very traditional metrics which are probably not useful for someone 10yrs out of school.