Contract language - "to include VAT"

Thoie

I'll be talking to my solicitor tomorrow, and this isn't urgent, but I wonder if anyone can shed some light on this to appease my curiosity.

I've got a contract here which says

"The Price" shall mean the sum of €100 (to include VAT) being the price of [...].

Hard for a layman to tell from that if the €100 is inclusive or exclusive of VAT. I'd read it as being inclusive of VAT - the total you will pay is €100. Someone else with me thinks it means that you have to add the VAT on, so the total you'll pay is €123.

I'll find out tomorrow either way, it's just an odd way of phrasing it (to me).

troll_a_roll

I think the 100 includes the vat, and total payment is 100.

lifeandtimes

To be honest I'd think it excludes vat,the words "to include" usual means something is going to be added

Example "buy this washer for 100 euro,to include an iron pay a future 25 euro"

exaisle

lifeandtimes wrote: »

To be honest I'd think it excludes vat,the words "to include" usual means something is going to be added

Example "buy this washer for 100 euro,to include an iron pay a future 25 euro"

No."To include" doesn't mean something is going to be added. It means that it's already added. Your example is misleading as it is not in the same context as the OP's post.

"€100 to include" VAT in the OP's post means that the €100 is to be considered to include VAT, so the net amount is €81.30 and the VAT (if it's at 23%) will be €18.70.

lifeandtimes

exaisle wrote: »

No."To include" doesn't mean something is going to be added. It means that it's already added. Your example is misleading as it is not in the same context as the OP's post.

"€100 to include" VAT in the OP's post means that the €100 is to be considered to include VAT, so the net amount is €81.30 and the VAT (if it's at 23%) will be €18.70.

Well to he honest it really depends on the context...most shops include vat...however services like solicitors ex do not

But op could just ask whoever he is taking this contract out and make easier than going to a solicitor

hullaballoo

To Include means to have inside of something. It's a VAT inclusive price.

exaisle

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Well to he honest it really depends on the context...most shops include vat...however services like solicitors ex do not

But op could just ask whoever he is taking this contract out and make easier than going to a solicitor

OP isn't referring to solicitor's costs. He's referring to the terms of a contract and within a contract the expression "to include VAT" means that VAT is already included.

Thoie

Thanks for all the answers, I completely forgot today is Friday, so it would have bugged me all weekend

lifeandtimes wrote: »

To be honest I'd think it excludes vat,the words "to include" usual means something is going to be added

Example "buy this washer for 100 euro,to include an iron pay a future 25 euro"

That was the other person's thinking. E.g. "I have floors to wash" means that I'm going to wash them in the future, so "to include VAT" could mean that I'm going to include VAT in the future. The way the figure was given it looked to me as if the VAT was already included, which seems to be the consensus here.

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Well to he honest it really depends on the context...most shops include vat...however services like solicitors ex do not

But op could just ask whoever he is taking this contract out and make easier than going to a solicitor

I'm not going to a solicitor specially for this, and the solicitor is reviewing the contract anyway (€100 was just an example figure - I'm not running to a solicitor for the fun of it).

exaisle wrote:

OP isn't referring to solicitor's costs. He's referring to the terms of a contract and within a contract the expression "to include VAT" means that VAT is already included.

Is the phrasing particular legal terminology, or was it just written by someone trying to "sound" legal? The more usual way to phrase it to my mind would be "The price shall mean the sum of €100 (inclusive of VAT) being the price of [...]". Though I'd probably just type the actual price in all (2) locations, rather than giving it a definition

Samuel T. Cogley

Semantics aside, I've no idea why some, in and out of the legal profession, insist on using obtuse language. It's entirely appropriate to use dense and forbidding language in legislation, but for christ sake, letters to clients. €100 Inc VAT or inclusive of VAT is perfectly readable and understandable.

exaisle

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Semantics aside, I've no idea why some, in and out of the legal profession, insist on using obtuse language. It's entirely appropriate to use dense and forbidding language in legislation, but for christ sake, letters to clients. €100 Inc VAT or inclusive of VAT is perfectly readable and understandable.

The OP mentioned that the phrase was included in a contract and not in a letter to him/her although your point is well made. There's no reason why the contract couldn't have included the expression "inclusive of VAT" which would have removed all confusion but then that's what professions do....they shroud their work in jargon to make it sound more complicated than what it is....in order to justify their fees.....

Oh dear....did I sound cynical? ;-)

hullaballoo

Any professional worth their salt knows you use plain, unambiguous and commonly used language in any kind of contractual drafting.

Some people insist on using language that is beyond their means and that's where problems arise.

If your level is Ann and Barry, that's how you should write, said hullaballoo.

Samuel T. Cogley

exaisle wrote: »

Oh dear....did I sound cynical? ;-)

Not cynical... :pac:

Thoie

hullaballoo wrote: »

Any professional worth their salt knows you use plain, unambiguous and commonly used language in any kind of contractual drafting.

Some people insist on using language that is beyond their means and that's where problems arise.

If your level is Ann and Barry, that's how you should write, said hullaballoo.

I know a few solicitors. Most of them write "normally". Their level of education means that sometimes they'll use "big" words, but they use them correctly, and they use them in places where they'd use them in normal conversation as well. No problem with that.

I also know a few who can turn a one line email into a 5 page rambling, nonsensical, stream of consciousness, because they think it makes them look clever when the recipient goes "WTF is he talking about?" Those are the ones who invariably misuse words, or phrase things peculiarly. I suspect the contract was drawn up by one of those kind.