Tenants want to stay another 1-2 months?

pilly

Hi All,

Okay, I have 3 tenants currently in my house in Dublin, it was a six month lease, due to expire 17th March. They are foreign students. That was the reason for the 6 month lease and also because it suited me.

They've just text me to ask if they can stay another 1-2 months.

Now, I've 2 dilemmas:

1. My son is returning from Canada around the end of March to live in Dublin so he will want to stay in the house. He doesn't mind sharing with them though.

2. Will this give them Part 4 rights etc. ? If my son doesn't get on with them that may be a problem.

I may add that I haven't had any problems with them except for they expect a bit of handholding in terms of maintenance but they've paid on time and I haven't heard of any anti-social behaviour from them.

I don't want them to be out there looking for somewhere else in the current market but I don't want to leave myself in a bad situation either.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thoie

Someone else will know the legalities, but if their lease expires in March, could you give them a new contract as licensees of your son from when the lease expires, and point them in the direction of what this means to them? If he's back living there at the end of March, and they only want to stay an extra month or two, they'd only have to share for about 6 weeks. How many bedrooms in the house? Is there a 4th room for your son to move into, or would two of them have to start sharing a room?

Once your son moves in before the end of the 6 months then they won't get part4 rights.

If it was a person/people living and working in Dublin I would be saying no for sure though as I wouldn't want to risk them getting part 4 as you could be stuck with them.

The fact they are foreign students would make me a little less worried about it even if they did acquire part 4 as the chances of them actually putting their foot down and staying on is probably very slim.

pilly

Thoie wrote: »

Someone else will know the legalities, but if their lease expires in March, could you give them a new contract as licensees of your son from when the lease expires, and point them in the direction of what this means to them? If he's back living there at the end of March, and they only want to stay an extra month or two, they'd only have to share for about 6 weeks. How many bedrooms in the house? Is there a 4th room for your son to move into, or would two of them have to start sharing a room?

No, there is 4 rooms so there's currently a room spare. Unless they've moved someone else in now but the lease is only with 3 people.

pilly

Kallie Howling Storyteller wrote: »

Once your son moves in before the end of the 6 months then they won't get part4 rights.

If it was a person/people living and working in Dublin I would be saying no for sure though as I wouldn't want to risk them getting part 4 as you could be stuck with them.

The fact they are foreign students would make me a little less worried about it even if they did acquire part 4 as the chances of them actually putting their foot down and staying on is probably very slim.

He won't be able to move in before the 6 months end though because he won't be back in the country by then.

Yeah, I don't think they will decide to stay any longer. If anything they might stay for the summer and then go back.

punisher5112

No don't unless you want them to get part 4 rights and will be impossible to get out if they feel they want to stay even longer.

Its totally up to you but I would be very careful.

Also could work if you were to move back in take a room then they would no longer have rights as you could get them to leave when you need them to.

pilly

pilly wrote: »

He won't be able to move in before the 6 months end though because he won't be back in the country by then.

Yeah, I don't think they will decide to stay any longer. If anything they might stay for the summer and then go back.

You could move him in without him being there, take over the room, move in some stuff and inform them that he has taken this room and will arrive "soon".

Of course tell them if they don't agree to him moving in that they have to move out at the end of the lease.

pilly

Kallie Howling Storyteller wrote: »

You could move him in without him being their, take over the room, move in some stuff and inform them that he has taken this room and will arrive "soon".

Of course tell them if they don't agree to him moving in that they have to move out at the end of the lease.

Yes, that could work. Thanks Nox.

Sarn

Did you rent them the entire place or on a per room basis? If its the entire place then your son can't move back in until their tenancy ends. If it's on a per room basis then there's no problem.

I think to be on the safe side, serve them notice advising them that the tenancy will end on March 17th. Advise them that your son will be moving in and that if they want to stay on as licencees for another month or two then that can be arranged. While it is likely that they won't cause any problems it is better to err on the side of caution. Even if your son moves in, I don't think their tenancy can default to licencees without appropriate notice.

Spanish Eyes

Just curious. If a licensee refuses to move what can the owner/occupier do about that?

PRTB is not an issue so what recourse is available?

Can one just dump their stuff outside and change the locks or what?

TheAnalyst_

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just curious. If a licensee refuses to move what can the owner/occupier do about that?

PRTB is not an issue so what recourse is available?

Can one just dump their stuff outside and change the locks or what?

You can forcibly remove them and their belongings with zero notice. Pretty much like kicking a visitor out of your house that is no longer welcome.

Spanish Eyes

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

You can forcibly remove them and their belongings with zero notice. Pretty much like kicking a visitor out of your house that is no longer welcome.

Are you sure?

I should research it more, but the thread got me thinking about my aunt who is all there with her cough drops but is in need of a bit more income now. She has a three bed house.

She is terrified of the consequences of having lodgers if they dig their heels in.

Obviously if required her nephews and nieces will help on that score as you say, but she is also concerned that lodgers may come back and bite her in some way. Ah well it's a gamble I suppose.

TheAnalyst_

Information is hard to come by and most basically gives a list of the rights you don't have like in a proper tenancy. 
From citizens info. 

[font=Arial, "Trebuchet MS", sans-serif, Verdana]ou do not have a standard tenancy agreement. Instead, you have a [/font][font=Arial, "Trebuchet MS", sans-serif, Verdana]licensee[/font][font=Arial, "Trebuchet MS", sans-serif, Verdana]agreement with your landlord. This means that you are in the  property by the landlord’s consent or invitation.[/font]

Its a bit grey about what happens when that consent is removed. They are then trespassing. Gardai would be unlikely to get involved as they would see the greyness of the situation and would say its a civil matter.

Spanish Eyes

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Information is hard to come by and most basically gives a list of the rights you don't have like in a proper tenancy. 
From citizens info. 

Its a bit grey about what happens when that consent is removed. They are then trespassing. Gardai would be unlikely to get involved as they would see the greyness of the situation and would say its a civil matter.

Exactly. But maybe we are overthinking it.

My worry for auntie K who could get another 800 quid a month tax free (minimum for where she is), is what happens if they refuse to leave.

Don't hear much about that scenario, but plenty about PRTB and tenant/landord problems.

athtrasna

Mod note

Please don't hijack the OP's thread with unrelated questions

newacc2015

OP you could give them a license agreement and have a monthly cleaner so they dont 'exclusive use'.

Are they students that are returning to college in their home country? As there is reduced risk of overstaying

the_syco

pilly wrote: »

No, there is 4 rooms so there's currently a room spare. Unless they've moved someone else in now but the lease is only with 3 people.

If they're renting the rooms only, I'd say you could plant your son in there. If they're renting the house, I don't think you can.

Spanish Eyes

Thanks all for the information. If OP ends up in a licensee position, the information here could be useful for anyone in the same, or Rent a room position.

Baralis1

You can't move your son or his stuff in or make any changes to the living arrangements until after the date the 6 month lease is up at the very minimum.
Even then, I don't think you can stop them getting part 4 tenancy as once they are there 6 months, they automatically have it. All you can do I'd say is give them the minimum notice period under part 4 from the date the lease is up citing your son needing the house as a reason. Ensure you follow the rules exactly when giving notice.
The only other option is to come to a gentleman's agreement with them to let your son move in and waive their rights. Otherwise, there's nothing you can do except giving minimum notice under part 4 from the end of their lease. You can't force them to become liciencees. (spelling?)

TheAnalyst_

If a tenant has six months and is given notice to leave at the end but overholds by a day do they then have part 4 rights?. Even with part 4 your son needing the property is grounds to end the part 4.

4ensic15

newacc2015 wrote: »

OP you could give them a license agreement and have a monthly cleaner so they dont 'exclusive use'.

Are they students that are returning to college in their home country? As there is reduced risk of overstaying

A monthly cleaner won't turn a tenant into a licencee. Writing "Licence" on the top of a piece of paper does not create a licence of itself. the RTB look at the reality.

pilly

newacc2015 wrote:

Are they students that are returning to college in their home country? As there is reduced risk of overstaying

No, they finished a post graduate here and I think they just want to stay another couple of months for the craic.

They're renting the whole place at the moment but it was only ever a 6 month lease. They are due to move out on 17th March so as I understand it once I give them notice by 17th Feb that ends the current lease.

I could then tell them they have the option to stay as licensees.

Or maybe I'm going to too much trouble to accommodate them?

I don't know.

pilly

Baralis1 wrote:

You can't move your son or his stuff in or make any changes to the living arrangements until after the date the 6 month lease is up at the very minimum. Even then, I don't think you can stop them getting part 4 tenancy as once they are there 6 months, they automatically have it. All you can do I'd say is give them the minimum notice period under part 4 from the date the lease is up citing your son needing the house as a reason. Ensure you follow the rules exactly when giving notice. The only other option is to come to a gentleman's agreement with them to let your son move in and waive their rights. Otherwise, there's nothing you can do except giving minimum notice under part 4 from the end of their lease. You can't force them to become liciencees. (spelling?)

This is what I don't get. What's the point of a 6 month lease if you can't terminate at the end of the 6 months? So frustrating.

GGTrek

pilly wrote: »

Baralis1 wrote:

You can't move your son or his stuff in or make any changes to the living arrangements until after the date the 6 month lease is up at the very minimum. Even then, I don't think you can stop them getting part 4 tenancy as once they are there 6 months, they automatically have it. All you can do I'd say is give them the minimum notice period under part 4 from the date the lease is up citing your son needing the house as a reason. Ensure you follow the rules exactly when giving notice. The only other option is to come to a gentleman's agreement with them to let your son move in and waive their rights. Otherwise, there's nothing you can do except giving minimum notice under part 4 from the end of their lease. You can't force them to become liciencees. (spelling?)

This is what I don't get. What's the point of a 6 month lease if you can't terminate at the end of the 6 months? So frustrating.

I suggest you to read this old thread that will explain to you all the legal problems that the biased pro-tenant interpretation of the RTB adjudicators create if you have a lease of 6 months:
https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057525425
Lease should be of 5 months + 28 days notice of termination in order to provide no reason for the termination

pilly

GGTrek wrote:

Lease should be of 5 months + 28 days notice of termination in order to provide no reason for the termination

Too late now!

the_syco

pilly wrote: »

No, they finished a post graduate here and I think they just want to stay another couple of months for the craic.

They're renting the whole place at the moment

They have two choices; new lease with one bedroom kept aside for tenant coming in X weeks, or B; move out.

Baralis1

GGTrek wrote: »

I suggest you to read this old thread that will explain to you all the legal problems that the biased pro-tenant interpretation of the RTB adjudicators create if you have a lease of 6 months:
https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057525425
Lease should be of 5 months + 28 days notice of termination in order to provide no reason for the termination

Well the rules are there to protect the tenant so that the landlord can't turf them out of their home whenever he/she feels like. One of the causes of all the economic woes in this country is the mentality that everyone has to buy their own home because long term tenants don't have enough rights and protection from being turfed out and in general, landlords are just in it for the rent and invest as little money as possible back into their rental properties to maintain them to a decent standard.

pilly

Baralis1 wrote:

Well the rules are there to protect the tenant so that the landlord can't turf them out of their home whenever he/she feels like. One of the causes of all the economic woes in this country is the mentality that everyone has to buy their own home because long term tenants don't have enough rights and protection from being turfed out and in general, landlords are just in it for the rent and invest as little money as possible back into their rental properties to maintain them to a decent standard.

My tenants are not long term though. I gave them a 6 month lease because that's what they wanted and that suited me.

As far as I'm concerned if 2 parties agree to a 6 month contract then it's over at the end of those 6 months.

Baralis1

pilly wrote: »

My tenants are not long term though. I gave them a 6 month lease because that's what they wanted and that suited me.

As far as I'm concerned if 2 parties agree to a 6 month contract then it's over at the end of those 6 months.

I know, I was talking in general in that post in response to the assertion that the laws and RTA are biased towards tenants. A bit off topic I know. It's unfortunate in your case as it was always meant to be a short term let but the law allows them part 4 tenancy so unfortunately nothing you can do.

the_syco

the_syco wrote: »

They have two choices; new lease with one bedroom kept aside for tenant coming in X weeks, or B; move out.

Her son won't be a tenant and if they are living with the ops son they can't have a lease as they are licensees.

newacc2015

4ensic15 wrote: »

A monthly cleaner won't turn a tenant into a licencee. Writing "Licence" on the top of a piece of paper does not create a licence of itself. the RTB look at the reality.

Yes, writing "Licence" on the top of a piece of paper does not create a licence. Seeing that the main difference between a tenancy agreement and license agreement is based around 'exclusive use'. When someone signs a license agreement and loses exclusive use of the property ie the monthly cleaner, they do not have a bona fide tenancy arrangement anymore. A monthly cleaner means they lost exclusive use

The RTB will look at the reality, which is these occupiers no longer had 'exclusive use' and therefore aren't tenants. You are more than welcome to show cases where this strategy is wrong.

4ensic15

newacc2015 wrote: »

Yes, writing "Licence" on the top of a piece of paper does not create a licence. Seeing that the main difference between a tenancy agreement and license agreement is based around 'exclusive use'. When someone signs a license agreement and loses exclusive use of the property ie the monthly cleaner, they do not have a bona fide tenancy arrangement anymore. A monthly cleaner means they lost exclusive use

The RTB will look at the reality, which is these occupiers no longer had 'exclusive use' and therefore aren't tenants. You are more than welcome to show cases where this strategy is wrong.

A cleaner coming in once a month to carry out cleaning does not mean there is no exclusive use. The RTB have time and again found against artificial attempts to create a licence. exclusive possession at a rent are the badges of a tenancy, but the RTB have interpreted exclusive use as being exclusive against other persons given a right to reside on the premises.