Supposed Near Miss at Dublin now discredited as fake news

Shannon Control

Jaysus.. Near miss over Dublin, you hear about this every now and then but never in Irish airspace. URL removed as poster has made it private

AndyBoBandy

TCAS doing its job

KoolKid

Was listening live to that up at 16. Handled very well I though.

smurfjed

TCAS doing its job

Not really !
So what happened, Ryanair cleared to 210 and descended through that altitude? So the controller then instructed Aer Lingus to climb and then also instructed Ryanair to climb?
Neither aircraft reported a TA or RA.

AndyBoBandy

smurfjed wrote: »

Not really !
So what happened, Ryanair cleared to 210 and descended through that altitude? So the controller then instructed Aer Lingus to climb and then also instructed Ryanair to climb?
Neither aircraft reported a TA or RA.

As soon as the controller informed the pilots of the TA, a pilot replied saying yeah, TCAS picked it up. So had the controller remained silent, the pilots would still have been aware thanks to TCAS

faoiarvok

You can also hear the TCAS anunciator in the background of one of the transmissions.

When was this?

smurfjed

That noise was the autopilot disconnect not TCAS.

EchoIndia

From the description on the youtube page it seemed possible that the alert was triggered by a third aircraft which was below the Aer Lingus A320 and was diverting to Shannon. We don't know if the conversations put up on youtube in this case are complete and cover all aircraft that may be of relevance. I note that the initial poster on this Pprune conversation was coincidentally (?) from Ennis as well: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/590843-airprox-between-2-c-inbound-dublin.html#post9672879

Shannon Control

EchoIndia wrote: »

From the description on the youtube page it seemed possible that the alert was triggered by a third aircraft which was below the Aer Lingus A320 and was diverting to Shannon. We don't know if the conversations put up on youtube in this case are complete and cover all aircraft that may be of relevance. I note that the initial poster on this Pprune conversation was coincidentally (?) from Ennis as well: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/590843-airprox-between-2-c-inbound-dublin.html#post9672879

Yeah, subbed to the page after the British Airways incident. It sounds like it conflicted with the Ryanair in front of it, not the guy behind it, but I can't tell from the transmissions who was in front of them. You can see in the thumbnail that it makes a really hard left turn, but that was behind another a/c, so it's quite confusing.

tnegun

smurfjed wrote: »

That noise was the autopilot disconnect not TCAS.

@1.28 there's an automated Traffic x2 that sounds like TCAS but I'm guessing the controller got in a fews secs ahead of it. What does the crew to do if TCAS and controller give conflicting instructions?

KoolKid

tnegun wrote: »

@1.28 there's an automated Traffic x2 that sounds like TCAS but I'm guessing the controller got in a fews secs ahead of it. What does the crew to do if TCAS and controller give conflicting instructions?

They obey TCAS AFAIK

AndyBoBandy

tnegun wrote: »

@1.28 there's an automated Traffic x2 that sounds like TCAS but I'm guessing the controller got in a fews secs ahead of it. What does the crew to do if TCAS and controller give conflicting instructions?

I think I remember hearing before that TCAS should always be the instructions followed,

Wasn't there a mid air collision before where the pilots ignored TCAS and followed human instructions instead, resulting in the incident.

KoolKid

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I think I remember hearing before that TCAS should always be the instructions followed,

Wasn't there a mid air collision before where the pilots ignored TCAS and followed human instructions instead, resulting in the incident.

There was. Its on Air Crash Investigation. Cant remember the episode name at the moment.

EchoIndia

Bashkirian Tu-154 and a DHL 757. I remember the night it happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cberlingen_mid-air_collision

AndyBoBandy

KoolKid wrote: »

There was. Its on Air Crash Investigation. Cant remember the episode name at the moment.

It was the one between the Russian plane full of kids and a DHL 757,

Where the controller was subsequently killed by the father of one of the Russian kids.
(He lost his wife & 2 kids)

Growler!!!

A Traffic Advisory or TA can be heard in the backround. No action should be taken for a TA other than try to ID the traffic if visible.

A Resolution Advisory on the other hand must be followed until clear of conflict.

notharrypotter

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I think I remember hearing before that TCAS should always be the instructions followed,

Wasn't there a mid air collision before where the pilots ignored TCAS and followed human instructions instead, resulting in the incident.

Incorrect.
The Bashkarian followed ATC instructions which was the Russian rules at the time.
The DHL followed TCAS which was the western rules at the time.
Subsequently ICAO mandated that TCAS RA must be followed.
Today ATC will take no action when advised that an aircrew are manoeuvring to comply with a TCAS RA.

smurfjed

Although the video subtitles state Traffic Traffic @ 1.28.... i didnt hear it the call.....

tnegun

smurfjed wrote: »

Although the video subtitles state Traffic Traffic @ 1.28.... i didnt hear it the call.....

You're right I thought I just couldn't hear it! The Ryanair pilot at the end mentions he has the traffic on TCAS - Is the system always active showing aircraft in the vicinity not just conflicts or potential conflicts?

Irish Steve

I have received the following from a reliable source, and on that basis, I think further discussion about the "incident" over Dublin is probably inappropriate, as it is doubtful that the incident occurred as originally reported.

Three aircraft involved:

EI-433 was cleared to FL200
FR-9431 was about 1nm ahead and below
FR-9451 was about 20nm behind and above cleared to FL210

ATC audio in that video referenced is authentic, verified via LiveATC,
however:

I have no "Traffic! Traffic!" in the same transmission where the Video has
it. I seriously doubt this "Traffic! Traffic!" in the video is real at all
(also the sound is not like a real TCAS system).

Separation between EI433 and FR9431 was 1800 feet (see attached radar tracks
in Google Earth) when the "800 feet below 1nm lateral" information was
provided by ATC at 13:13Z.

>From my point of view: no close call whatsoever. Plan by ATC did not work
out, and separation was no longer assured, hence controller took action to
restore the separation assurance - no actual loss of separation occurred
according to the Mode-S data.

faoiarvok

tnegun wrote: »

You're right I thought I just couldn't hear it! The Ryanair pilot at the end mentions he has the traffic on TCAS - Is the system always active showing aircraft in the vicinity not just conflicts or potential conflicts?

The system can show all proximate traffic if so set up. Otherwise a Traffic Advisory will activate when another aircraft is heading for the aircraft in question, but not immediately in danger of colliding. A Resolution Advisory will issue and recommend an avoidance action to both aircraft if they are in immediate danger of colliding. Once an RA is given, the pilots should follow the RA and inform ATC as early as possible what they're doing

faoiarvok

Irish Steve wrote: »

I have received the following from a reliable source, and on that basis, I think further discussion about the "incident" over Dublin is probably inappropriate, as it is doubtful that the incident occurred as originally reported.

Sorry, I was typing my reply as this was posted.

I notice comments have been disabled on the YouTube video since it was first posted. Can I ask when the alleged incident is supposed to have taken place? I don't think this has been answered on YouTube or here.

Irish Steve

I don't have any more details than the comments I've posted, and the source I received it from earlier this evening would prefer not to be named, and I've agreed that while we would use the information provided, we would not get into detailed discussion or exchanges about it, in that as it's not as such an incident, spending time on researching it would be counter productive and inappropriate.

No problem about the crossover, these things happen.

smurfjed

TCAS II issues the following types of aural annunciations:

• Traffic advisory (TA)
• Resolution advisory (RA)
• Clear of conflict

When a TA is issued, pilots are instructed to initiate a visual search for the traffic causing the TA. If the traffic is visually acquired, pilots are instructed to maintain visual separation from the traffic. Training programs also indicate that no horizontal maneuvers are to be made based solely on information shown on the traffic display. Slight adjustments in vertical speed while climbing or descending, or slight adjustments in airspeed while still complying with the ATC clearance are acceptable.^[4]
When an RA is issued, pilots are expected to respond immediately to the RA unless doing so would jeopardize the safe operation of the flight. This means that aircraft will at times have to manoeuver contrary to ATC instructions or disregard ATC instructions. In these cases, the controller is no longer responsible for separation of the aircraft involved in the RA until the conflict is terminated.
On the other hand, ATC can potentially interfere with a pilot's response to RAs. If a conflicting ATC instruction coincides with an RA, a pilot may assume that ATC is fully aware of the situation and is providing the better resolution. But in reality, ATC is not aware of the RA until the RA is reported by the pilot. Once the RA is reported by the pilot, ATC is required not to attempt to modify the flight path of the aircraft involved in the encounter. Hence, the pilot is expected to "follow the RA" but in practice this does not always happen.

This is basically how TCAS works, the term "got him on TCAS", just means that "yep I can see him on my TCAS screen".

smurfjed

Source..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system

eatmyshorts

faoiarvok wrote: »

. Once an RA is given, the pilots should follow the RA and inform ATC as early as possible what they're doing

Technically, they SHALL follow the RA, not SHOULD.
Those two words have a big implication in aviation.

The term Resolution Advisory is a bit misleading, as to all intents and purposes, it's a command, not an advisory.

Of course there's always exceptions, such as not following a descend RA when below 1000 feet.

billie1b

Irish Steve wrote: »

I have received the following from a reliable source, and on that basis, I think further discussion about the "incident" over Dublin is probably inappropriate, as it is doubtful that the incident occurred as originally reported.

The "traffic, traffic" you hear in the video is that of a Boeing 738's TCAS, I hear it multiple times a day in work being tested. I'll try get a recording later and post it up.

Buffman

Shannon Control wrote: »

Jaysus.. Near miss over Dublin, you hear about this every now and then but never in Irish airspace. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSPdSEn-aYk

I know you probably posted that in good faith, but from my very quick bit of online research with FR24 and LiveATC, that video has been edited with some 'alternative' sound effects that Kellyanne Conway would be proud of and cannot be trusted.

I see the edited video/audio has been made private on Youtube, so I wonder have either Aer Lingus or Ryanair legal departments taken action? (It's still up on the Daily Mail 'story' on this, I'm not going to link to it, but the addition of the sound effects is very obvious when listening on headphones.)
(EDIT: Since I posted this earlier, the Youtube video has been made public again, there now looks to be multiple versions of this audio around, the Youtube one with autopilot disconnect sound (No TCAS sound now), the Daily Fail audio which has autopilot disconnect and TCAS sound, and the unedited Live ATC one with no autopilot disconnect or TCAS)

For anyone interested in the actual facts, playback Flightradar24 on 06 Feb 2017 from 13:10 UTC and look 10-15km East off the coast of Bray/Greystones. (There was no loss of separation at all that I could see between EI443 and FR9431)

The original unedited ATC is available on LiveATC, if you listen from 12:10 on you'll hear the conversation minus the autopilot disconnect and TCAS sound effects.

EIDW3-Feb-06-2017-1300Z

Irish Steve wrote: »

I think further discussion about the "incident" over Dublin is probably inappropriate, as it is doubtful that the incident occurred as originally reported.

Irish Steve wrote: »

I don't have any more details than the comments I've posted, and the source I received it from earlier this evening would prefer not to be named, and I've agreed that while we would use the information provided, we would not get into detailed discussion or exchanges about it, in that as it's not as such an incident, spending time on researching it would be counter productive and inappropriate.

Apologies for continuing on about it, unfortunately this 'story' is already in the Daily Fail and a few of the Irish tabloids, so I wanted to put the available facts out there.

Shedite27

Nothing to see here

0lddog

So, an example of your actual Fake News then ?

IngazZagni

Simon from the Aviation Herald has made a comment on this over on PPRUNE and also made reference to boards.ie.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/590843-airprox-between-2-c-inbound-dublin.html

Just to confirm: I have it now officially, that there was no loss of separation at all. The controller restored the scenario in time to avoid a loss of separation (it was only a loss of separation assurance therefore).

I have further confirmed, that the audio has been manipulated/faked. The sounds of the autopilot disconnect wailer as well as the "Traffic! Traffic!" advisory are not present on any other recordings that became available to me in the meantime, including (but not only) LiveATC.

According to information I have received from Ireland during our research the thread initiator here (as well as on boards.ie) and the video author most likely are the same person (and I have more information about that person, which however would be inappropriate to be mentioned here).

Servus
Simon Hradecky
The Aviation Herald
The Aviation Herald

It seems this was created to generate likes and hits on a YouTube page. A clear case of "fake news" if you ask me.

Austrian Simon

Buffman wrote: »

Apologies for continuing on about it, unfortunately this 'story' is already in the Daily Fail and a few of the Irish tabloids, so I wanted to put the available facts out there.

Thanks for your checks - you arrived at the same conclusions I arrived at (making my debut post here now - maybe sort of a hint how I picked my nick if you look at Irish Steve!) prompting me to make the strong comment under the video (which today became online again) and posts on Pprune.
Hats off ;-)
Austrian Simon aka Simon Hradecky, The Aviation Herald
P.S.: Shannon Control here, ShannonACC on Pprune and the video author appear to be the same person.

Buffman

Austrian Simon wrote: »

Thanks for your checks - you arrived at the same conclusions I arrived at (making my debut post here now

Hello Simon,

Thank you for that, I'm glad I could be of assistance. Well done on your very good article about this. I think your assessment of the motive behind the fake video is spot on and it is unfortunate that it is still trending on Youtube.ie. (#1 at the moment:mad:) (Edit: Video has since been made private again on Youtube)

Keep up the great work on AVHearld and welcome to boards.ie.

Shannon757

Welcome Simon. Love your work.

JCX BXC

The worst part about these awful sensationalised videos is the vast amount of people who actually believe them, media is getting worse by the day and it seems the audience is going with it. Even what were the more broadsheet outlets are going tabloid lately, namely the Irish times.

...And Justice

Getting network 404 now, is the video gone?

Buffman

...And Justice wrote: »

Getting network 404 now, is the video gone?

Ye, he's made it private again, probably doing some more creative editing now that he's been called out on it. The 'first fake' with AP and TCAS sound effects is still on the Daily Fail site if you want to see it.

If the video author is reading this, do yourself and us a favour and either delete it or put up an accurate record of what actually happened.

KoolKid

Made AH

http://avherald.com/h?article=4a4e9685&opt=0

JCX BXC

KoolKid wrote: »

Made AH

http://avherald.com/h?article=4a4e9685&opt=0

I see you haven't read over the last few posts

KoolKid

Sorry, missed a page.:mad::o

Tenger

KoolKid wrote: »

Sorry, missed a page.:mad::o

No harm, no foul.

I think we can lay this to bed at this point. A great example of the system of cross checking the information you are being presented with on the internet.

Irish Steve

This supposed incident has received wide publicity in a number of places, but it has now also been discredited as false news, so on that basis, I am not going to delete it, but I am going to move the relevant items out into a separate thread, as it is not an accident or incident, and close the thread to deny the original poster the oxygen of any more publicity

I would also like to acknowledge the support, assistance and information that was provided by a number of people that has ensured that this fake news has been exposed as such.