Is it a criminal offence to not pay debts

Cartouche

such as bank loans or credit cards ?
Could a person be arrested for non payment of debt ?

infogiver

Cartouche wrote: »

such as bank loans or credit cards ?
Could a person be arrested for non payment of debt ?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/personal_finance/debt/court_procedures.html

Take a read of this.

Fred Swanson

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johnnyskeleton

Cartouche wrote: »

such as bank loans or credit cards ?
Could a person be arrested for non payment of debt ?

Theoretically if you had no intention of ever paying it back then it could be theft, but its very hard to prove that.

Peregrinus

It's not a criminal offence to fail to pay your debts.

Incurring debts that you don't intend to pay is an offence, generally speaking. It will be some species of fraud or obtaining money by deception. And "intend" here covers both "I do not want to pay these debts" and "I know that I will probably not be able to pay these debts".

JimsAlterEgo

so hypothetically if you got a mortgage knowing you were going to be let go could it be fraud?

Fred Swanson

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Peregrinus

Prosecution is unusual because it's rarely possible to prove that, when you applied for and drew down the mortgage, you intended not to repay. Unless you have been stupid enough to, e.g., write to somebody saying "I'm going to defraud the Bank of Ireland ha ha!" or similar, the prosecution won't be able to make out its case.

twowheelsonly

Whilst it's not a criminal offence (generally...) you can still end up in prison for non payment, sometimes via a contempt of court warrant if you ignore a court order. It's not at all unusual and there's a few people locked up almost every week for it.

BTW, the debt doesn't go away when you're locked up unlike a fine which is considered paid by your imprisonment. The debt is still there when you get out. Also, unlike a fine, you'll do all of the time on the warrant i.e if it's 45 days then that's what you'll do. With a fine you can be released the same day even if the warrant says 10 days or more.

Sam Quentin

Does it not have to be proved without a shadow of doubt! means tested, sheriffs etc etc and then the ultimate removal of valuables, property etc etc!?

twowheelsonly

Sam Quentin wrote: »

Does it not have to be proved without a shadow of doubt! means tested, sheriffs etc etc and then the ultimate removal of valuables, property etc etc!?

That's up to the Judge. The 'lender' will bring a case stating that they loaned you X amount and you haven't repaid it. Doesn't take much to prove that in normal circumstances. How the Judge deals with it is generally (AFAIK) up to him. This can be anything from a pound a week to seizure of goods to eventual imprisonment. Judges are usually fairly reasonable in these cases but if they think you're taking the piss then you can forget about them being reasonable. They've heard every excuse and sob story in the book and are fairly good at identifying the genuine ones.

Sam Quentin

twowheelsonly wrote: »

That's up to the Judge. The 'lender' will bring a case stating that they loaned you X amount and you haven't repaid it. Doesn't take much to prove that in normal circumstances. How the Judge deals with it is generally (AFAIK) up to him. This can be anything from a pound a week to seizure of goods to eventual imprisonment. Judges are usually fairly reasonable in these cases but if they think you're taking the piss then you can forget about them being reasonable. They've heard every excuse and sob story in the book and are fairly good at identifying the genuine ones.

Excuse me for my ignorance... I know money makes the world go round and all that.... BUT ..... If your taking stuff on 'HP' and buying materials, goods etc etc on loan then shouldn't you not be sure not 99% BUT 100% that you can repay or guarantor your dept..... <<Why is at least 70%(I assume)of people living in this way, but yet 30% of people chose to basically 'live by the seat of their pants'... I know there's no answer, but it IRKS me this one .... .... My eg: Started a job in a new Multi National.. long story short>> within 6 Months at least 30-40% of new employees were pulling up in new cars.. The rest of us still had what we started with(good, bad or indifferent)anyway after a year or so the company decided to pull our portion of its operation out of Ireland..... Anyway you can guess the rest.....

Peregrinus

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Whilst it's not a criminal offence (generally...) you can still end up in prison for non payment, sometimes via a contempt of court warrant if you ignore a court order . . .

If somebody gets a judgment against there are a variety of enforcement mechanism. Under the law as it stands, one of this is a committal order, under which you can go to prison.

However, the creditor can't apply for a committal order unless he has first of all applied for and obtained an instalment order (requiring you to pay off the judgment debt in period instalments of an amount that the court thinks you can afford) and you have failed to honour it. The judge can then order imprisonment for up to three months, but only if the creditor proves, beyond reasonable doubt, that your failure to pay the required instalments is not due to "mere inability to pay", but to mere inability to pay but is due to "wilful refusal or culpable neglect". Plus, the creditor has to prove that you have no goods that could be seized and sold, as an alternative to sending you to prison.

That's the position under the law as it stands. But the Oireachtas has passed legislation abolishing commital to prison as an enforcement mechanism. When that legislation is brought into force, imprisonment for debt will no longer be possible. (Imprisonment for comtempt of court will still be possible if, e.g., the sheriff arrives to enforce an order to seize your goods, and you assault or obstruct him. That wouldn't be imprisonment for debt, but rather for actions you took to prevent the enforcement of a judgment.)

Victor

Sam Quentin wrote: »

Does it not have to be proved without a shadow of doubt!

'Beyond reasonable doubt' is the term.

Peregrinus

Sam Quentin wrote: »

Excuse me for my ignorance... I know money makes the world go round and all that.... BUT ..... If your taking stuff on 'HP' and buying materials, goods etc etc on loan then shouldn't you not be sure not 99% BUT 100% that you can repay or guarantor your dept..... <<Why is at least 70%(I assume)of people living in this way, but yet 30% of people chose to basically 'live by the seat of their pants'... I know there's no answer, but it IRKS me this one .... .... My eg: Started a job in a new Multi National.. long story short>> within 6 Months at least 30-40% of new employees were pulling up in new cars.. The rest of us still had what we started with(good, bad or indifferent)anyway after a year or so the company decided to pull our portion of its operation out of Ireland..... Anyway you can guess the rest.....

In a case like that there'd be no chance of a successful fraud charge. It may have been foolish for employees to borrow on the expectation that their employment would continue for as long as it took to pay off the loan, but there's no reason to think it was dishonest, which is what you'd have to prove to make a fraud-type charge stick.

twowheelsonly

Peregrinus wrote: »

If somebody gets a judgment against there are a variety of enforcement mechanism. Under the law as it stands, one of this is a committal order, under which you can go to prison.

However, the creditor can't apply for a committal order unless he has first of all applied for and obtained an instalment order (requiring you to pay off the judgment debt in period instalments of an amount that the court thinks you can afford) and you have failed to honour it. The judge can then order imprisonment for up to three months, but only if the creditor proves, beyond reasonable doubt, that your failure to pay the required instalments is not due to "mere inability to pay", but to mere inability to pay but is due to "wilful refusal or culpable neglect". Plus, the creditor has to prove that you have no goods that could be seized and sold, as an alternative to sending you to prison.

That's the position under the law as it stands. But the Oireachtas has passed legislation abolishing commital to prison as an enforcement mechanism. When that legislation is brought into force, imprisonment for debt will no longer be possible. (Imprisonment for comtempt of court will still be possible if, e.g., the sheriff arrives to enforce an order to seize your goods, and you assault or obstruct him. That wouldn't be imprisonment for debt, but rather for actions you took to prevent the enforcement of a judgment.)

As you say that's the correct procedure as it stands. The new attachment orders as far as I've been led to believe doesn't abolish imprisonment entirely but is an absolute last resort in the event of someone not complying with payment, payment through wages deduction and finally community service. I stand to be corrected but that's my understanding of it so far.

Contempt of Court committals are semi-regular - I've probably seen 4 to 6 a year over the past 15+ years and a lot of them, but not all, tend to be for maintenance orders. Most would seem to be fellas that 'know their rights' and the Judge is ALWAYS wrong and they're ALWAYS being held illegally and more than a few of them represent themselves as some of the finest legal minds in the country "haven't a clue" or are just not as intelligent as some of these guys apparently :rolleyes:

BTW, my experience in all of this stems from the Prisons point of view as an Officer that regularly processes committals. As such we'll be the last to know the finer details of any changes to the legislation which we're expected to know automatically by some telepathic means

Fred Swanson

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