Cost of an architect

dellas1979

Hello all,

Hoping some people can provide me with some advice here and their experience.

It is quite hard to find this information in Ireland!

What would be a norm (if there is a norm) for the cost of an architect in Ireland (not an engineer or architect technician) for designing a full/new build. I've read one piece of information that says 10-12% of build costs. That would bring it to planning permission stage/plans for builder.

Any information (and your experience) would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

athtrasna

Try the construction and planning forum?

dellas1979

Oh...totally didnt realise there was a forum for this!
Mods could you move if possible?
Many thanks
Edit: Ive tried to find this forum on boards, but cant find it...

Gumbo

dellas1979 wrote: »

Hello all,

Hoping some people can provide me with some advice here and their experience.

It is quite hard to find this information in Ireland!

What would be a norm (if there is a norm) for the cost of an architect in Ireland (not an engineer or architect technician) for designing a full/new build. I've read one piece of information that says 10-12% of build costs. That would bring it to planning permission stage/plans for builder.

Any information (and your experience) would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

If you want the official Architect fees, the RIAI set out the recommend fees on their website.
Of course, some will agree different figures based on how much involvement you want them to have.

10% of overall build seems normal to me.
That can then be broken down to Initial Meeting

• Planning Stage
• Tender Stage
• Supervision Stage

dellas1979

Thanks very much for your reply.

See, I met an architect recently (RIAI registered), and they came to plot. Discussed build etc. There was a lot of information said during this. And its all new to me.

At the end, we discussed his fee for design up to passing the planning stage. Its about 5% of the build cost (or mortgage money available for me to build). Mortgage as its a new build doesnt cover architect fees. i.e., Id have to pay for architect myself outside what I can borrow. But I cant apply for mortgage until planning permission is passed.

Anyways (and the bit that confuses me, although they are to send me a full quote of costs for them-am wondering if I need to ask more questions), if I wanted them to continue to supervise the build (and engineer as well) I would have to pay roughly another 5-7% of the build cost. From what youve said, I guess this part would involve tender and supervision.

S0, basically, I guess that would work it out as the 10-12% (if that all that makes sense?).

Am sole contributor to the project, so trying to figure out all the costs involved (before a shovel even goes in the ground!), i.e.,
Architect cost (design/tender/supervision)
Perculation testing
Fee to planning authority after planning permission is passed
....
Insert more (if there are any!?)

Gumbo

Yes, no bank dovers the planning stage. You cannot apply until planning is in place and you must use an architect, engineer or surveyor to supervise.

dellas1979

Thanks for reply again. Really am learning all this as it happens.

I suppose, what am asking is, is it reasonable for 10-12% of the build cost for an architect to design a house, get it to planning stage, tender (not 100% sure what this is), and supervise (as architect/engineer).

This would get me the shell of a house. Finishings not included.

Vyse

Our architect/ engineer was a fixed price. I think it worked out around 8,000 for drawings, tendering, planning and overseeing the build (that was about 4 years ago and I know it has gone up since).

I don't understand this whole 10% of the build cost thing. Would it not be in the architects interest to up the cost of build if they were working off a %? Maybe I am just cynical:pac:

dellas1979

Vyse wrote: »

Would it not be in the architects interest to up the cost of build if they were working off a %? Maybe I am just cynical:pac:

Thanks for your post.

Lols-maybe...but cant pull money off the trees (as I told the architect). I can only borrow so much (as a sole applicant). Unless I proverbially rob the bank

Am just pure confused how all this goes...I need a list (as I will need to approach mortgage lender to say am taking out money out of savings for architect phase) and not sure what to put on the list, or if 10-12% of build cost is the norm for designing/getting planning permission, tendering, engineering/supervising.

Gumbo

dellas1979 wrote: »

Thanks for reply again. Really am learning all this as it happens.

I suppose, what am asking is, is it reasonable for 10-12% of the build cost for an architect to design a house, get it to planning stage, tender (not 100% sure what this is), and supervise (as architect/engineer).

This would get me the shell of a house. Finishings not included.

The thing is, it's not just an architect you need. You need to demonstrate compliance with the building regulations, so you need an engineer for the structural elements and at least an energy guy for the BER/deap, air tightness details.

A good architect will be able to offer both design and energy advice but then you'll pay for this also.

You need a good breakdown of what service you are getting from them.

Tender stage is when the architect sends out the construction drawings (not the planning drawings) to at least 3 builders to get a spread of quotes so you can choose a builder.

ontour2

My experience for what it is worth!

There is huge variation based on the budget, location, complexity of site and build spec such as passive house etc. Like lots of professionals the quote will vary based on their interest in your project and their availability. Up to the planning permission stage, fixed price or % will make very little difference if they stick to your budget. RIAI publish a graph of percentage fees based on budget which some architects provide with their quote. 5-6% is not unusual for 'up to planning permission' and 8-11% for full project engagements for budgets from 100-200k.

Couple of things to keep in mind:
- VAT. the additional 23% on top of the fees really adds up. Architects also regularly talk of the budget in ex VAT terms.
- Some architects provide good cost estimates of the design, other defer to (the appropriate professional) a quantity surveyor. Another fee.
- when you have planning there is project safety compliance work that may or may not be included in one of the professionals fees
- As above, factor in cost or engineer for structural, drainage design, supervision etc.

dellas1979

Thanks for replies. It is a passive house they would be designing.

Am still not sure/clear if paying 5% (the cost of a build) to an architect (to get it up to passing planning permission) and then another 5-7% after to the same architect to supervise/engineer the build.

Am running a tight build (due to money constraints). And, would like to get it right from the off. And maybe the money should be put into this (as the architect would act as the engineer as well).

Gumbo

Tight budget and passive usually don't go hand in hand.
This is where you have to pay extra for design, details, junctions and oversight of what the builder is actually doing on site.

Calahonda52

The architect will not engineer the build.

Reduce the area of the proposed house so as you can afford proper professional advice.

Designing PH is one thing, getting it built to PH stand is something else, a something else which is quite simply beyond a lot of builders.

You may also find that once you mention PH they may either lose interest or jack up the costs.

This will apply to both the architect and any builders

While you under the above, perhaps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9-s79Ek1CE
:D Simply Red - Money's Too Tight (To Mention) Live from Budapest June 27th 2009:D:D

dellas1979

The architect is an RIAI certified. And an expert in passive houses. Ive e150,000 to build, and that isnt going to change. Cant get any more out of me. I will have to use savings to pay architect etc.

The proposed size of the build is 100 sq meters, 2 storey (and would be designed so if an extension might be built at a later date). He does think it is doable (1500 per sq meter).

I really appreciate all the replies.

The engineer and architect then would be at the same firm.

What am asking is, would it be worth paying 5% to get a fantastic design (and pass planning permission). And then an additional 5-7% more for the architect and engineer.

I've spoken to people who had their house designed, then the engineer would be signing off on parts that werent to spec. Am wondering if it is worth paying that for peace of mind/no surprises scenario. i.e., extra money...

Thanks for the advice on the tender. I need to bring this up with him. If its a specialised kind of house, do I need builders with specific skills. As building a passive house that isnt air tight would be pointless.

mike_2009

Hi,
Note: When going for the mortgage, you can include "Development fees" such as Architects, Engineers etc as part of your deposit. Check with your bank. Just keep the receipts!
Assume you own the land already? You can use the value of that as a deposit also.
Your bank will insist the inclusion of a 10% contingency. Take that from your 150K budget.
Legislation requires a Design Certifier (DC) and Assigned Certifier (AC), I think self builders can appoint themselves but check if you get this included in the fees or not, or it's another extra. Expect LOTS of little extras! Council Contribution fees is another as is service connections, land survey, build insurance etc.
Check the architect is a certified passive house designer as they'll need to do PHPP calcs for planning also, don't want to get them wrong!
Once you get planning, it's out to tender and only then once you know exact price can you get the bank to see what mortgage you can get. The initial valuation done by a person appointed by the bank will look at nearby houses, sell values and the build costings and determine this. You'll get up to 90% of this value or 3.5x salary, whichever is lower! Make sure you do the maths carefully.
Some architects are fixed fee rather than %. The current Passive House Plus magazine has an article you may have read on their fees, worth a read.
The key part is finding a builder you trust, depending how what building system you choose may introduce risk if the lead contractor hasn't built to passive standard before, check previous work. If you buy from a timber frame company, that company ensures air tightness, you just have to police later contractors to avoid drilling holes where they shouldn't etc!
Best of luck!

Metric Tensor

Make sure you know what you mean by "Passive House." Due to marketing and general buzz-word-ology it means different things to different people.

Do you mean a certified "passivhaus"? If so you won't build it for 1500 per square metre and your consultancy fees by the time you get to the end of the project will be well above your current estimate. There's also a very limited number of contractors that will be able to do it.

Do you mean a house that meets the "passivhaus" standard but without certification to prove same? If so the consultancy fees will probably be lower but the build cost in theory should be the same.

Does passive house mean something else to? Maybe it's just a certain kWh/year performance value you expect to achieve in the DEAP calculation? Depending on what number you expect you may be able to build to your budget.

What I'm getting at is that "Passive House" is not a defined standard or value - it's a wishy washy term that can mean nothing at all.

With your tiny budget you will need to make some very tough decisions and you will need good professionals to guide you. The problem is that the amount of design work required for a 100sq m house is way more than half of what's required for a 200sq m house so they won't scale down too quickly as you reduce the house size. 10% for you is 15K - that's not a lot of consultancy work.

Also you seem to be in a rural location ... the effluent treatment works on their own could be up to 10% of your budget. If you need an Irish Water connection it'll be another 6K-8K or the same if you need a well. Council development fees could be 2-3K or more. I'm not sure your budget is realistic ... especially for a "passive" house of some sort.

dellas1979

Sorry if am not making myself clear.

150k is to build the house. Are you saying you cant build a passive 100 sq meter house for 150K? What value would you put on it then?

Fees, council etc would be from my own savings (I was saving up for years for a deposit to buy a house-never found a house I liked, and this opportunity came up. And should be seen as an opportunity. I was gifted the land). Yes, I dont have to pay deposit because of the land.

I have a list for a 100 sq meter passive house, so far:
Architect fees: 5% of build
Copies of planning/applying for planning: e500
Perculation test: Around 1k
Council: Around 3-4k
To actually build the house (the shell): e150k (the bank will not give me anymore)
Architect/Engineer when build starts: 5-7%
Utilities (esb/water connection): 15k
I'd be putting roughly 36k of my own money to this.

Am I missing anything. So that I can query this. Ill have another 13k save by the end of the year to then start the interiour. Ye are frighthening the bejaysus out of me here lols :-) but also good to have a discussion and a reality check. Am sole financial contributor, and so far, I dont think am doing too bad!

Gumbo

What's the €500 planning cost?
Is the architect a set 5% fee for planning? (You should be able to negeotiate a flat fee for this stage).
Will it be the same architect that will supervise the construction?
Engineer fee could be 5k alone separate to the architects supervision cost.

I personally think you need to agree a set planning fee with a good PH architect then get a detained bill of quantities from a QS so you know the coastings going forward.

You have to finish the house to draw down the final payment.

€150k is a low mortgage, even for a sole earner as the new central bank rules state a max LTI (loan to income) of 3.5 times salary, 150k would only require a salary of 43k.

Once you have some coatings you can then evaluate your options. I also don't think you will get a 100 square meter PH built for 150k either. I think it would be over 200k.

dellas1979

e186,000 (150 for build. e36 for everything else-estimated)

So, the general consensus is I wouldnt be able to build (just build) a 100 square meter passive house for e186,000.

Am looking for help and advice here guys. Maybe some of you are experienced in this. Ive to learn as I go. Hence why am on here asking questions and trying to learn. Its very hard to get information (impartial advice).

No wonder housing is so screwed up in Ireland if you couldnt even build a house for e186k!

Calahonda52

The costs are also a function of the design so if the house design is complex then pH detailing for airtightness [A/T] and thermal bridging etc becomes more costly and complex.
Your posts are silent on house construction type: my preferred construction type is one where the services are all brought in through the floor slab in an airtight duct and are distributed throughout the house inside the A/T layer in a service cavity.

The pluses on this include there being no need to perforate the A/T layer for elec and piping.
Obviously the MHVR intake and extract pipes will need to perforate the A/T layer but they are big enough to get right easily
The obvious downside is that there is no thermal mass in the walls to help maintain a steady state temperature.

Re the additional 13k, that could go on a decent worktop in the kitchen
edit just see the post re the 36, you need to itemise, for yourself, what is in this.

Its the internal finishes that can eat up the mula so again think of the type of construction that would allow you to build it for 150, but it would be a long way from being finished.

dellas1979

Am going to have to wait to answer your question, as I need details from the architect.

I dont know how to say anymore, am a newbie at this (feel people are getting angry at me). And am doing my best (on my own). I cant go to college and get a job in construction and learn all this in a few months.

The architect explained to me (after talking to me/my needs) and I tell this in layman's terms per the above (and what I understood) that the house because of its size, wouldnt have any heating system (just maybe one wood burning pellet for instant heat). That the insulation and vents would do the rest.

Calahonda52

Angry! not at all, we are not even warmed up, too damned cold:D

What we are trying to do is to point out the value of good professional advice and introduce some realism to your cost estimates.

What you could do is read this
https://www.nsai.ie/S-R-54-2014-Code-of-Practice.aspx

While it is aimed at retro/refurb, the ideas will cross over to new.
Also look here
http://passiv.de/en/

As regard College.
Buy this book
http://www.adverts.ie/school-college-books/construction-technology-leaving-certificate-book-by-trevor-hickey/10756167

Finally, if the architect talks about vents then you are not on the same page as for PH it is MHVR, with no vents

dellas1979

Thanks. See, am pure confused

Yep, this is what he was talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation

So, now ive to off an find out the difference between passive and this.

And this is exactly why am on here...so, that is useful to me.

Metric Tensor

Apologies for an hyperbole OP. I should not have called your budget tiny .... very limited is probably a better description!

Sub 100 would be tiny!

dellas1979

It isnt the biggest budget indeed. And fully aware of that

If I had a partner to put in his side of money injection, would be great. But, shur I dont. So Ive to get on with what I do have.

So, am trying to figure it all out (and learning lots), pick up the lingo, do budgets, find out whats the best.

Ive watched this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut9wQmbUY7I

This is the system he was talking about. Also says passive house, even tho it uses MHVR ventilation system. So....am still mighty confused what is considered a passive house.

Edit: He was trying to explain the concept to me, and to get the idea across, he used vents. As in, he is breaking it down to the likes of me. But the above is what he described/explained.

Calahonda52

The PH spec is here:
http://www.passiv.de/en/02_informations/02_passive-house-requirements/02_passive-house-requirements.htm
In simple terms it sets an upper limit on

1. energy consumption and on
2. airtightness which is measured in terms of air changes per hour.

"In terms of Airtightness, a maximum of 0.6 air changes per hour at 50 Pascals pressure (ACH50), as verified with an onsite pressure test (in both pressurized and depressurized states)."
Once you are down at these low levels of air changes and energy demand, MHVR is a must.
As pointed out earlier, you don't have to get the house certified as being PH, but you do need to get the air changes down as low as possible..
If I was to say one thing: insist on a target for air changes that is close to the PH requirement of 0.6