Legal System Cost

Samuel T. Cogley

I'm out in the other thread due to the borderline trolling, although if you want to come here and behave, please do. But when challenged on my assertion that the German and French systems cost the tax payer a huge amount more than the Irish system I was staggered on two fronts:

(i) I was correct for once
(ii) The difference was no where near what I thought it would be

The 'Justice System' including legal aid costs Paddy Taxpayer €50.30c per year mean while Fritz (Germany) is paying 114.30. Okay huge difference in relative terms. However the limies (UK) are up there at 114.60 with an almost identical legal system to us and the French are only paying 61.20.

What am I missing here? I was under the impression there was amazing access to courts in Germany? What are the French doing right that the Brits can't seem to?

Data is for 2012

tayto lover

If found Not Guilty --- Free Legal Aid.

If found Guilty -- Pay the charges YOU incurred yourself (even out of your dole).

I'd have crime cut to the minimum in no time and much cheaper for the taxpayer.

hullaballoo

In France, they pay their lawyers peanuts. What do you get if you pay in peanuts?

Samuel T. Cogley

hullaballoo wrote: »

In France, they pay their lawyers peanuts. What do you get if you pay in peanuts?

Barristers with under 10 years of practice ripping your arm off? :pac:

Joking aside, that helps to explain France.

TimingChain77

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Barristers with under 10 years of practice ripping your arm off? :pac:

Joking aside, that helps to explain France.

The professional class never let go of the old peanuts and monkeys analogy. You'd almost forget they oversaw one of the greatest financial debt crisis the world has ever seen. The monkeys over in France didn't get anywhere near to close to them. I reckon we should start paying peanuts and hope that the monkeys will come and take their jobs.

All joking aside, would you elaborate on those numbers and how you are reaching them.

Samuel T. Cogley

TimingChain77 wrote: »

The professional class never let go of the old peanuts and monkeys analogy. You'd almost forget they oversaw one of the greatest financial debt crisis the world has ever seen. The monkeys over in France didn't get anywhere near to close to them. I reckon we should start paying peanuts and hope that the monkeys will come and take their jobs.

All joking aside, would you elaborate on those numbers and how you are reaching them.

I linked the book, please behave here - I think you're getting a huge amount of lattitude in the other thread as it's been opened by a mod and it would be unseemly (lawyers generally having a sense of fair play and all that) to moderate you.

Edit: Was looking for the page reference but I've had too many views of the book today. The index is hyperlinked.

TimingChain77

Ok. I will behave.

I did look into the link but identified a number of different figures relating to each country so i'm not sure which figures you are using. I do have a genuine interest in this.

After I will vacate the board in recognition of me being a little too lively for "reasoned" discussion.

4ensic15

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I'm out in the other thread due to the borderline trolling, although if you want to come here and behave, please do. But when challenged on my assertion that the German and French systems cost the tax payer a huge amount more than the Irish system I was staggered on two fronts:

(i) I was correct for once
(ii) The difference was no where near what I thought it would be

The 'Justice System' including legal aid costs Paddy Taxpayer €50.30c per year mean while Fritz (Germany) is paying 114.30. Okay huge difference in relative terms. However the limies (UK) are up there at 114.60 with an almost identical legal system to us and the French are only paying 61.20.

What am I missing here? I was under the impression there was amazing access to courts in Germany? What are the French doing right that the Brits can't seem to?

Data is for 2012

How much does Paddy contribute to the funding of the legal system via his insurance payments?

impr0v

4ensic15 wrote: »

How much does Paddy contribute to the funding of the legal system via his insurance payments?

The cost to commerce and, more broadly, society of the huge inefficiency in the system is immeasurable, but I'll wager that it's very substantial.

I haven't looked for statistics, but one would be doing very well to conclude a High Court (non-commercial) plenary action of any substance within three years.

A lot of that is down to the need for procedural reform. But the limited procedural reform that has been commenced has been paused due to the lack of resources with which to implement it.

The system, like most arms of the public sector, needs more funding. For Judges, for support staff, and for facilities.

While I am at it: the salary scale for judges needs to be revised upwards. If all the monkeys down below are getting paid more than peanuts, who will accept the peanuts on offer on the bench?

Elemonator

The two systems are very different. In a lot of European civil law systems, judges are not experienced barristers or solicitors like Ireland. You can study at college, do the exams after and go to judge school. They are just another legal practitioner. I know its a marginal cost in comparison to the overall cost, but the little things possibly add up OP!

TimingChain77

There has to be a caveat on this thread as the numbers have not yet been explained to us by the OP.

Samuel T. Cogley

4ensic15 wrote: »

How much does Paddy contribute to the funding of the legal system via his insurance payments?

The thread that inspired this thread is discussing that very point. Perhaps mosey on over?

The fallacy that Paddy is paying a huge amount or a huge amount more the Fritz seems to be undergoing a bit of a long over due analysis.

Samuel T. Cogley

Elemonator wrote: »

The two systems are very different. In a lot of European civil law systems, judges are not experienced barristers or solicitors like Ireland. You can study at college, do the exams after and go to judge school. They are just another legal practitioner. I know its a marginal cost in comparison to the overall cost, but the little things possibly add up OP!

Training is taken into account, but it's tiny in Ireland, the budget in civil law countries is quite a bit bigger alright!

TimingChain77 wrote: »

There has to be a caveat on this thread as the numbers have not yet been explained to us by the OP.

I linked you the entire book...

TimingChain77

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Training is taken into account, but it's tiny in Ireland, the budget in civil law countries is quite a bit bigger alright!



I linked you the entire book...

I have looked at the book but I can not seem to the same numbers you are.

Surely its not that difficult for you to explain how you are reaching the figure for one of the countries?

Samuel T. Cogley

TimingChain77 wrote: »

I have looked at the book but I can not seem to the same numbers you are.

Surely its not that difficult for you to explain how you are reaching the figure for one of the countries?

Christ, I really have to explain how to use a contents page?

See page 57. The data isn't me doing some rough sums on the back of a fag packet, it's a published and properly researched dataset. The methodology is in the book and I'm not copy and pasting it here.

TimingChain77

That wasn't hard was it.

The link you originally posted brings you to page 84.

Apologies, I'm not as sensitive to questioning as you seem to be so I'm not as delicate when I discuss issues. I should be more conscious of others needs when I communicate with them.

Mod
Pls keep it civil

Samuel T. Cogley

TimingChain77 wrote: »

That wasn't hard was it.

The link you originally posted brings you to page 84.

Apologies, I'm not as sensitive to questioning as you seem to be so I'm not as delicate when I discuss issues. I should be more conscious of others needs when I communicate with them.

The data was right there in front of you, I explained to you why I couldn't link you directly yesterday.

I'm more than happy to enter into a discussion with you but if you ask for something have the common courtesy to have a quick look for it when it's linked.

TimingChain77

Samuel,

I appreciate you taking the time to establish the veracity your earlier statement re costs and provide an informative resource detailing same.

However, for the sake of maintaining the rhythm of a board discussion it is better that easy clarification can be given where possible. I could read the book etc but how long would that take and if eventually I did return to comment would anybody care.

As it is, you made your point, i sought a direction, you directed, i conceded the point.

Thank you.

Mr. Incognito

Your analysis is flawed.

It sets out on page 57 the total annual budget allocated to the Justice System which is expressed covers

1. Courts
2. Legal Aid
3. Public Prosecution.

It cites the cost as 2.3 Billion. This is a very unsatisfactory rough estimate. The Justice Deparment Budget in 2017 in Ireland is 2.5 Billion which covers a host of things such as An Garda Síochána; Courts Service; Prisons; Department of Justice and Equality; Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission; Policing Authority; Valuation Office; Property Registration Authority.

http://agsi.ie/articles/budget-2017-justice-equality-budget-tops-e2-5-billion/

A like for like is not possible from the source you linked as it has not drilled down into the figures properly.