No notice of dismissal while on probation

The Young Wan

I know that rights are vastly different while on probation as to full employment, but any advice here would be greatly appreciated.

I was hired by a magazine firm in September 2016 on a six month probationary period. In this time, I didn't get a lot of training for my role and was mostly sat in a room by myself to get the job done. It wasn't exactly rocket science, but as with every job there were processes specific to this company, and I wasn't given a lot of guidance in the role.

Week beginning January 18th I had a meeting with my employer, who told me there were some issues with my performance and to keep an eye on these. "Remember you are still on probation, and if needed we can extend this" was the outstanding message of this meeting. There was no reference of my possible dismissal.

Friday January 27th I was brought into the meeting office and told "we don't feel it's working out, and I think that we need to leave it here."

My dismissal was effective immediately, and it wasn't in any way inferred that I was to come back in on the Monday, but my contract stated I was to be given a week's notice. I wasn't given this. I am wondering if this is something that should be brought up with a solicitor.

mickmackmcgoo

The Young Wan wrote:

My dismissal was effective immediately, and it wasn't in any way inferred that I was to come back in on the Monday, but my contract stated I was to be given a week's notice. I wasn't given this. I am wondering if this is something that should be brought up with a solicitor.

That's lousy , sorry to hear that. Any decent company would give a weeks notice . Probably not worth pursuing legally but you could contact NERA and ask your rights to pay in lieu of a weeks notice

Senna

Assuming you haven't received a p35 yet, They may pay for that week, other companies have paid for the notice agreement in the contract even when it's not been mentioned when the employee was let go.
You should phone HR and ask them about it.

The Young Wan

Senna wrote: »

Assuming you haven't received a p35 yet, They may pay for that week, other companies have paid for the notice agreement in the contract even when it's not been mentioned when the employee was let go.
You should phone HR and ask them about it.

What's a P35, if I may ask? I haven't heard of one.

They don't have any HR so I would have to ask the person who fired me. Better to email so I have a record of it?

Senna

The Young Wan wrote: »

What's a P35, if I may ask? I haven't heard of one.

They don't have any HR so I would have to ask the person who fired me. Better to email so I have a record of it?

Typo P45.

Emails can be ignored, a call will usually get an answer, not sure what use having a record is in this case.

Grandeeod

Hi OP.

I hope you are still checking back on this thread. Its hard to figure out your exact rights based on what you presented here. However you may have recourse via the WRC under the Industrial Relations Act 1969. I would put the following questions to you.

Did your employer have a clear probationary policy and was it explained to you when you started working for them?

If they did have a policy, was it explained to you at the start of employment that you could be dismissed if you were not successful in the role?

Did your employer meet you regularly to review your performance? According to your post you had a meeting the week of January 18th. Was that the first meeting/review you had since starting employment the previous September? Were the issues covered in detail? Did you get a written copy of this meetying/review?

Do you believe that you were not given enough training/guidance for your role?

When you were dismissed on January 27th, did you receive the reasons in writing? Were you offered the opportunity to improve in the role before dismissal? Have you received your weeks notice pay and P45?

The answers to these questions can determine if you have a legitimate case against this employer. You can still move on with your life, while taking a case and you may in certain circumstances be entitled to compensation. It will also provide you with a continuous job record that you can stand over.

A lot of employers abuse the "probation" period in the hope that probationary employees assume they have no rights. Employers are still required to follow fair proceedure and natural justice when dismissing an employee on probation. If they don't then the employee has recourse via the WRC.

Of course this post is based on not knowing all the facts related to your case. Ultimately its up to you and the answers to the questions I have asked.

The Young Wan

Grandeeod wrote: »

Did your employer have a clear probationary policy and was it explained to you when you started working for them?

If they did, they didn't explain it to me on my first day.

Grandeeod wrote: »

If they did have a policy, was it explained to you at the start of employment that you could be dismissed if you were not successful in the role?

No.

Grandeeod wrote: »

Did your employer meet you regularly to review your performance? According to your post you had a meeting the week of January 18th. Was that the first meeting/review you had since starting employment the previous September? Were the issues covered in detail? Did you get a written copy of this meeting/review?

It was not my first meeting, but it was my first in quite some time. We used to have a weekly meeting, this went on for three weeks before my employer stopped it. On a contrary note, another employee who is currently on probation is having weekly meetings with the employer. I didn't get a written copy of this meeting.

Grandeeod wrote: »

Do you believe that you were not given enough training/guidance for your role?

Yes. My employer said it themselves - "I know that since you began you haven't been given a lot of training but everything we've discussed is something you should have known.

Grandeeod wrote: »

When you were dismissed on January 27th, did you receive the reasons in writing? Were you offered the opportunity to improve in the role before dismissal? Have you received your weeks notice pay and P45?

I was told in the meeting on the 18th that I needed to up my game. On the day of my dismissal, I didn't get the reasons in writing. On that same day, I wasn't offered a chance to improve or make good. Perhaps that was what the week before was for?

I have contacted the company for my pay and P45, they've said that this won't be sent to me until the next pay run on the 27th. Obviously, that's not good news because I now need to sign on and I can't without my P45.

Grandeeod

The Young Wan wrote: »

If they did, they didn't explain it to me on my first day.



No.



It was not my first meeting, but it was my first in quite some time. We used to have a weekly meeting, this went on for three weeks before my employer stopped it. On a contrary note, another employee who is currently on probation is having weekly meetings with the employer. I didn't get a written copy of this meeting.



Yes. My employer said it themselves - "I know that since you began you haven't been given a lot of training but everything we've discussed is something you should have known.



I was told in the meeting on the 18th that I needed to up my game. On the day of my dismissal, I didn't get the reasons in writing. On that same day, I wasn't offered a chance to improve or make good. Perhaps that was what the week before was for?

I have contacted the company for my pay and P45, they've said that this won't be sent to me until the next pay run on the 27th. Obviously, that's not good news because I now need to sign on and I can't without my P45.

First and foremost, you don't need your P45 to sign on. The process is so long that that you can supply it at a later date. Explain the employers policy to them. I assume you will be signing on for JA and that will take at least 10 to 12 weeks for your claim to be processed.

In relation to all your other answers, I suggest you write it all down, because some of it sounds like the employer has not followed fair proceedure and natural justice. You can make a complaint on the WRC website that I have linked below. Even if you get your last wage payment, you may still feel aggrieved at why you were dismissed and its entirely up to you if you wish to make a complaint. I would stress that if you genuinely beleive that the employer was unfair to you, then make a complaint. You owe that to yourself. As I have said in my previous post, there is rampant abuse of employees on probabtion and an assumption that employees have no rights. This is wrong.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Complaints_Disputes/Refer_a_Dispute_Make_a_Complaint/

Take some time to explore the site and even look at adjudication results that may be relevant to your situation.

Senna

Grandeeod wrote: »

First and foremost, you don't need your P45 to sign on. The process is so long that that you can supply it at a later date. Explain the employers policy to them. I assume you will be signing on for JA and that will take at least 10 to 12 weeks for your claim to be processed.

In relation to all your other answers, I suggest you write it all down, because some of it sounds like the employer has not followed fair proceedure and natural justice. You can make a complaint on the WRC website that I have linked below. Even if you get your last wage payment, you may still feel aggrieved at why you were dismissed and its entirely up to you if you wish to make a complaint. I would stress that if you genuinely beleive that the employer was unfair to you, then make a complaint. You owe that to yourself. As I have said in my previous post, there is rampant abuse of employees on probabtion and an assumption that employees have no rights. This is wrong.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Complaints_Disputes/Refer_a_Dispute_Make_a_Complaint/

Take some time to explore the site and even look at adjudication results that may be relevant to your situation.

The vast vast majority of employers don't abuse the probation period, I know plenty of stories from the terminated employees point of view, which lets face it, is always going to make the employer out to be unfair. Employers don't what a high turnover if staff, new staff are a huge expense and burden. But not every staff member is suitable for every job, that just reality and some staff are let go.
OP, take the quoted advice with extreme caution, absolutely nothing with come from it and you will only waste your time pursuing it.
It's a learning experience, move on and best of luck in the next job.

amtc

You don't a p45 to sign on. A note from your employer is fine. And it won't take 10 to 12 weeks

Grandeeod

Senna wrote: »

The vast vast majority of employers don't abuse the probation period, I know plenty of stories from the terminated employees point of view, which lets face it, is always going to make the employer out to be unfair. Employers don't what a high turnover if staff, new staff are a huge expense and burden. But not every staff member is suitable for every job, that just reality and some staff are let go.
OP, take the quoted advice with extreme caution, absolutely nothing with come from it and you will only waste your time pursuing it.
It's a learning experience, move on and best of luck in the next job.

What qualifies you to state that? I'm not being smart by the way.

I never said the vast vast majority of employers abuse the probabtion period. I said that abuse was rampant and it is. It is widely reported because the vast majority of employees don't even realise they have rights. I'm speaking from a HR perspective and the questions I posed to the OP are points that HR firms constantly advise employers on to prevent them making mistakes.

I accept that some people on probation may not be suitable for the job and once proper proceedures are followed the employee can be let go and get on with their lives. I've no problem with that. However probationary employees do have rights, if they think they have been dismissed unfairly. Believe it or not the OPs claim that the employer admitted they didn't provide enough training is actually grounds for a complaint.

I read this forum a lot, but don't post much on it. But I have noticed a very slack attitude to dismissal of employees during the probation period.

infogiver

Grandeeod wrote: »

What qualifies you to state that? I'm not being smart by the way.

I never said the vast vast majority of employers abuse the probabtion period. I said that abuse was rampant and it is. It is widely reported because the vast majority of employees don't even realise they have rights. I'm speaking from a HR perspective and the questions I posed to the OP are points that HR firms constantly advise employers on to prevent them making mistakes.

I accept that some people on probation may not be suitable for the job and once proper proceedures are followed the employee can be let go and get on with their lives. I've no problem with that. However probationary employees do have rights, if they think they have been dismissed unfairly. Believe it or not the OPs claim that the employer admitted they didn't provide enough training is actually grounds for a complaint.

I read this forum a lot, but don't post much on it. But I have noticed a very slack attitude to dismissal of employees during the probation period.

Service

Normally you must have at least 12 months' continuous service with your employer in order to bring a claim for unfair dismissal. However there are important exceptions to this general rule. If you have less than 12 months' continuous service you may bring a claim for unfair dismissal if you are dismissed for:

• Trade union membership or activity
• Pregnancy, giving birth or breastfeeding or any matters connected with pregnancy or birth
• Availing of rights granted by the Maternity Protection Acts 1994 and 2004, the Adoptive Leave Acts 1995 and 2005, the Paternity Leave and Benefit Act 2016 the National Minimum Wage Act 2000, the Parental Leave Acts 1998 and 2006 and the Carer's Leave Act 2001
• Making a protected disclosure under the Protected Disclosures Act 2014

Note: employment equality legislation prohibits dismissal based on any of the following 9 grounds for discrimination: gender, civil status, family status, age, disability, religious belief, race, sexual orientation or membership of the Traveller community. So, for example, if you have been employed for less than a year you may not be able to bring a claim under the unfair dismissals legislation, but you may be able make a complaint of discriminatory dismissal - see 'How to apply' below.
In general, the continuity of an employee's employment is only broken by the dismissal of the employee by the employer or the termination of the employment by the employee.

This employee cannot make a complaint re unfair dismissal because they simply haven't been working there long enough.

Grandeeod

infogiver wrote: »

Service

Normally you must have at least 12 months' continuous service with your employer in order to bring a claim for unfair dismissal. However there are important exceptions to this general rule. If you have less than 12 months' continuous service you may bring a claim for unfair dismissal if you are dismissed for:

• Trade union membership or activity
• Pregnancy, giving birth or breastfeeding or any matters connected with pregnancy or birth
• Availing of rights granted by the Maternity Protection Acts 1994 and 2004, the Adoptive Leave Acts 1995 and 2005, the Paternity Leave and Benefit Act 2016 the National Minimum Wage Act 2000, the Parental Leave Acts 1998 and 2006 and the Carer's Leave Act 2001
• Making a protected disclosure under the Protected Disclosures Act 2014

Note: employment equality legislation prohibits dismissal based on any of the following 9 grounds for discrimination: gender, civil status, family status, age, disability, religious belief, race, sexual orientation or membership of the Traveller community. So, for example, if you have been employed for less than a year you may not be able to bring a claim under the unfair dismissals legislation, but you may be able make a complaint of discriminatory dismissal - see 'How to apply' below.
In general, the continuity of an employee's employment is only broken by the dismissal of the employee by the employer or the termination of the employment by the employee.

This employee cannot make a complaint re unfair dismissal because they simply haven't been working there long enough.

This is getting tiresome.:rolleyes: and probably why there is so much ignorance abounding.

Read below.

http://www.algoodbody.com/insightspublications/Probationary_Periods_and_Fair_Procedures

This is merely one example from one particular legal firm of how it works. I can quote more if need be.

Once again - Employees on probation can make a claim for unfair dismissal under the Industrial Relations Act 1969 or the Employment equality acts 1998 - 2011.

davo10

Grandeeod wrote: »

This is getting tiresome.:rolleyes: and probably why there is so much ignorance abounding.

Read below.

http://www.algoodbody.com/insightspublications/Probationary_Periods_and_Fair_Procedures

This is merely one example from one particular legal firm of how it works. I can quote more if need be.

Once again - Employees on probation can make a claim for unfair dismissal under the Industrial Relations Act 1969 or the Employment equality acts 1998 - 2011.

Tiresome indeed. The labour court is not a court of law and its findings are non binding, the employer is recommended to give its findings consideration but the employer is not legally required to pay the employee ( first two paragraphs of Labour relations website). You know this, the employee has to go to a court of law for enforcement. How many employees want to go through that hassle and what effect will it have on future employment?

You can recommend this, that and the other, but let's face it, during the probationary period it is far easier for the employee to be let do than it is to go through the LC and DC. Op, move on and don't be giving consideration to this kinda over reaching.

infogiver

Grandeeod wrote: »

This is getting tiresome.:rolleyes: and probably why there is so much ignorance abounding.

Read below.

http://www.algoodbody.com/insightspublications/Probationary_Periods_and_Fair_Procedures

This is merely one example from one particular legal firm of how it works. I can quote more if need be.

Once again - Employees on probation can make a claim for unfair dismissal under the Industrial Relations Act 1969 or the Employment equality acts 1998 - 2011.

The Labour Court is non-binding. Why would you send this employee off on a wild goose chase when you know he'll need a barrister?

Mrs OBumble

Grandeeod wrote: »

Once again - Employees on probation can make a claim for unfair dismissal under the Industrial Relations Act 1969 or the Employment equality acts 1998 - 2011.

Yes, they can.

I even know of a local case where they guys claim was successful - because the employer never turned up to court. ( No idea if he actually saw any cash at the end of the day though.)

But things are not clear cut, and to win you need a good lawyer. Something which recently unemployed people usually cannot afford.

People's energy at this time is far better focused on getting another job, not on taking a case which will scare future employer's off of hiring them.

Senna

Now that the nonsense is cleared up.

OP, your contract stated one weeks notice, that can mean instant dismissal but you should still be paid for the weeks notice, I would push for that.

Grandeeod

davo10 wrote: »

Tiresome indeed. The labour court is not a court of law and its findings are non binding, the employer is recommended to give its findings consideration but the employer is not legally required to pay the employee ( first two paragraphs of Labour relations website). You know this, the employee has to go to a court of law for enforcement. How many employees want to go through that hassle and what effect will it have on future employment?

You can recommend this, that and the other, but let's face it, during the probationary period it is far easier for the employee to be let do than it is to go through the LC and DC. Op, move on and don't be giving consideration to this kinda over reaching.

I pointed out to you before that decisions can be enforced. Your point about the effect it would have on future employment reinforces the belief that probationary employees should keep their mouths shut, hence the abuse that goes on. We'll agree to differ.

infogiver wrote: »

The Labour Court is non-binding. Why would you send this employee off on a wild goose chase when you know he'll need a barrister?

I didn't send anyone off on a wild goose chase. I simply pointed out options if they felt they were unfairly treated. And you don't need a barrister either. I was just quoting from a particular legal practice.

davo10

Grandeeod wrote: »

I didn't send anyone off on a wild goose chase. I simply pointed out options if they felt they were unfairly treated. And you don't need a barrister either. I was just quoting from a particular legal practice.

But you do agree that the LC cannot enforce a ruling in a case like this and that to receive redress, if the LC rules in his/her favour the op would have to go to a court of law, yes? And to do so the op would need a solicitor at the very least who has a very good knowledge of employment law, yes? Unless of course the op represents his/herself in which case he/she has a fool for a client as the saying goes. And do you agree that such a case risks drawing a considerable amount of attention to the op which could be detrimental to his/her chances of gaining future employment?

Sometimes common sense is rare thing.