Advice needed on zoned pumps replacents

chuck eastwood

Hi folks. I was hoping to get some advice from someone with a bit more knowledge than myself on choosing the correct pump for a two zone system and stove/oil burner feeding a system link. Separate pumps to feed each zone upstairs and down stairs

Upstairs has 3 doubles and 1 single fed by a Tuscon GDP 25-5s on the lowest of the three-speed settings

Downstairs has 2 doubles and two singles is fed by a Myson 25 compact CP53 (pump left over from the old system)

The circulating pump from the stove to the system link is also Tuscon 25-5s.

Basically I want to replace them with more efficient pumps and I think the pumps might oversized as I can hear the water rushing through the upstairs system which sounds like the flow rate is to high, so loud it is waking our youngest when switched on at night. Its not cavitation or knocking.
I would be grateful for suggestions on pump sizing and i was wondering if something like the the Lowara Ecocirc 25-6. Again I am open to suggestions on pumps. If anymore info is needed i will get back to you ASAP

Dtp1979

chuck eastwood wrote: »

Hi folks. I was hoping to get some advice from someone with a bit more knowledge than myself on choosing the correct pump for a two zone system and stove/oil burner feeding a system link. Separate pumps to feed each zone upstairs and down stairs

Upstairs has 3 doubles and 1 single fed by a Tuscon GDP 25-5s on the lowest of the three-speed settings

Downstairs has 2 doubles and two singles is fed by a Myson 25 compact CP53 (pump left over from the old system)

The circulating pump from the stove to the system link is also Tuscon 25-5s.

Basically I want to replace them with more efficient pumps and I think the pumps might oversized as I can hear the water rushing through the upstairs system which sounds like the flow rate is to high, so loud it is waking our youngest when switched on at night. Its not cavitation or knocking.
I would be grateful for suggestions on pump sizing and i was wondering if something like the the Lowara Ecocirc 25-6. Again I am open to suggestions on pumps. If anymore info is needed i will get back to you ASAP

3 new pumps are gonna set you back 300 euro. Plus labour. It'll be a long time before your current pumps use that much. Turn down the pump setting or better still get a plumber in to see what's going on

chuck eastwood

Dtp1979 wrote: »

3 new pumps are gonna set you back 300 euro. Plus labour. It'll be a long time before your current pumps use that much. Turn down the pump setting or better still get a plumber in to see what's going on

Thank for your reply. I can get three lowara ecos' delivered for €240. Easy enough to fit and rewire myself. While it might take time to pay back the outlay but I am still going to replace for more efficient and quieter pumps as these are all in a press in the kitchen and driving me mad with the noise, all are already at the lowest speed setting. Again I am looking for guidance on sizing or alternative pumps that could use.

chuck eastwood

Snap shot of the layout

Dtp1979

chuck eastwood wrote: »

Thank for your reply. I can get three lowara ecos' delivered for €240. Easy enough to fit and rewire myself. While it might take time to pay back the outlay but I am still going to replace for more efficient and quieter pumps as these are all in a press in the kitchen and driving me mad with the noise, all are already at the lowest speed setting. Again I am looking for guidance on sizing or alternative pumps that could use.

A rated pumps aren't any quieter. But if you wish to buy them then work away. If your existing pumps are all set to 1 and you're still having issues then new pumps will not solve this

chuck eastwood

Dtp1979 wrote: »

A rated pumps aren't any quieter. But if you wish to buy them then work away. If your existing pumps are all set to 1 and you're still having issues then new pumps will not solve this

While I do appreciate your reply the pump I have said I would like to replace my existing pumps with is of a completely different construction and without copy and pasting the specs and pump I overveiw it is significantly quieter. The A rating only refers to the energy usage and not the mechanical construction, vibration or bearing type which governs sound produced.

Also my other primary concern is the flow rate which seems to high. My area is hydraulics and pnuematics so while I have little experience with domestic plumbing I do know fitting a different smaller pump will solves my excessive flow problem. I'm just looking recommendations on other pumps. I could spend fruitless hours searching online but I have gotten some brilliant advice here in the past. Thanks again for your reply but it leaves me now further up the road

Dtp1979

chuck eastwood wrote: »

While I do appreciate your reply the pump I have said I would like to replace my existing pumps with is of a completely different construction and without copy and pasting the specs and pump I overveiw it is significantly quieter. The A rating only refers to the energy usage and not the mechanical construction, vibration or bearing type which governs sound produced.

Also my other primary concern is the flow rate which seems to high. My area is hydraulics and pnuematics so while I have little experience with domestic plumbing I do know fitting a different smaller pump will solves my excessive flow problem. I'm just looking recommendations on other pumps. I could spend fruitless hours searching online but I have gotten some brilliant advice here in the past. Thanks again for your reply but it leaves me now further up the road

Get a plumber in. You shouldn't be able to hear noise in your system. Especially if all pumps are at 1

chuck eastwood

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Get a plumber in. You shouldn't be able to hear noise in your system. Especially if all pumps are at 1

I've have two plumbers in. One who fitted it originally and another helped out when I changed the back boiler to a stove. Both had nothing useful to add. When it came to the circulating pumps and I don't know any heating engineers. No plumber I know seems to be able to do a proper calculation based on the actual pipe work and system I have. I've rang two plumbers since and neither have showed up.
As for saying the pumps are 1inch, this has no bearing on the flow rates of the pumps or vibration as again the pump I suggested and asked for advice on above (lowara Eco high efficiency/lownoise), a shaft less motor/impeller. To be honest the call a plumber solution has been useless to me as I have tried four and it's almost impossible to get one to size a system and pumps correctly. This is why I came here, plenty here who know what they are talking about rather than suggesting wasting more time

Dtp1979

chuck eastwood wrote: »

I've have two plumbers in. One who fitted it originally and another helped out when I changed the back boiler to a stove. Both had nothing useful to add. When it came to the circulating pumps and I don't know any heating engineers. No plumber I know seems to be able to do a proper calculation based on the actual pipe work and system I have. I've rang two plumbers since and neither have showed up.
As for saying the pumps are 1inch, this has no bearing on the flow rates of the pumps or vibration as again the pump I suggested and asked for advice on above (lowara Eco high efficiency/lownoise), a shaft less motor/impeller. To be honest the call a plumber solution has been useless to me as I have tried four and it's almost impossible to get one to size a system and pumps correctly. This is why I came here, plenty here who know what they are talking about rather than suggesting wasting more time

Tbh you're overthinking it. This is a domestic system so calculating pump flow rates etc isn't that vital for correct operation. I know more plumbers who know nothing about solid fuel pipework than plumbers who do. I'd honestly say your issue is pipework related

chuck eastwood

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Tbh you're overthinking it. This is a domestic system so calculating pump flow rates etc isn't that vital for correct operation. I know more plumbers who know nothing about solid fuel pipework than plumbers who do. I'd honestly say your issue is pipework related

Over thinking it ? I'm not being funny but my problem started with plumbers who worked on it under thinking it. It's a solid fuel oil combi linked through system link, a system most plumbers would have worked on over the last 5 years on new or retro fits.
There is a problem relating to the flow being to high which can only be eased by leaving all TRV's and opposite rad valves wide open to thus making all TRVs redundant. Obviously the pipework cannot be changed but the pump is a 20/30 min job if I can get advice from experienced plumbers on an alternative to the pumps in place.

Dtp1979

chuck eastwood wrote: »

Over thinking it ? I'm not being funny but my problem started with plumbers who worked on it under thinking it. It's a solid fuel oil combi linked through system link, a system most plumbers would have worked on over the last 5 years on new or retro fits.
There is a problem relating to the flow being to high which can only be eased by leaving all TRV's and opposite rad valves wide open to thus making all TRVs redundant. Obviously the pipework cannot be changed but the pump is a 20/30 min job if I can get advice from experienced plumbers on an alternative to the pumps in place.

A rated pumps don't have lower flow rates so the only advantage will be more efficient pumps. Fwiw I find lowara to be quite noisy. I'll say it again, if you have all pumps set to 1 and you still have noise then the pumps aren't the problem.

Dtp1979

I'd say the main problem you have is overkill. You have 4 pumps on a small domestic system heating 8 rads.

Wearb

Have you considered fitting a bypass (loop) around a pump (put a valve on it) to see if that works. It should allow you to prove your too great a flow theory.

Dtp1979

Wearb wrote: »

Have you considered fitting a bypass (loop) around a pump (put a valve on it) to see if that works. It should allow you to prove your too great a flow theory.

Systemlink boxes have built in bypasses as far as I know

chuck eastwood

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I'd say the main problem you have is overkill. You have 4 pumps on a small domestic system heating 8 rads.

You're probably right. Before we zoned it we had one pump servicing all the rads upstairs and down which seemed to match up well capacity wise. I'm now using the same size pump on each zone doubling the previous flow through each. I cannot changed the pipe work so a smaller circulating pump for each zone is my only option

Dtp1979

chuck eastwood wrote: »

You're probably right. Before we zoned it we had one pump servicing all the rads upstairs and down which seemed to match up well capacity wise. I'm now using the same size pump on each zone doubling the previous flow through each. I cannot changed the pipe work so a smaller circulating pump for each zone is my only option

I don't think you can get smaller than a 5m pump set at speed 1 TBH.
Maybe use 1 pump for both zones and seperate with motorised valves.

xl500

I think you need a modulating Pump These are A rated but also vary Head according to Load as Valves Open Close they will change their Load

I have a Wilo Stratos Pico on a Domestic System with 3 Zones controlled by Zone Valves you can clearly see the power of the Pump Changing as the Zones open and close

On this Pump using the Menu you can vary the max Head to suit the installation

http://productfinder.wilo.com/ie/en/c00000016000391ce00020023/product.html#tab=range_description


Also the Pump is virtually Silent but I only have one Pump

chuck eastwood

Wearb wrote: »

Have you considered fitting a bypass (loop) around a pump (put a valve on it) to see if that works. It should allow you to prove your too great a flow theory.

I have one rad on each circuit fully open as a safety but a bypass after the pump and before the first rad might be a good solution. That would be easy enough to fit. Thanks for the reply

chuck eastwood

xl500 wrote: »

I think you need a modulating Pump These are A rated but also vary Head according to Load as Valves Open Close they will change their Load

I have a Wilo Stratos Pico on a Domestic System with 3 Zones controlled by Zone Valves you can clearly see the power of the Pump Changing as the Zones open and close

On this Pump using the Menu you can vary the max Head to suit the installation

http://productfinder.wilo.com/ie/en/c00000016000391ce00020023/product.html#tab=range_description


Also the Pump is virtually Silent but I only have one Pump

I've just had a quick look at it and it's perfect but almost €350 per pump. I need at least two, I'll ask the wife if she doesn't mind cancelling our Easter holiday first

xl500

chuck eastwood wrote: »

I've just had a quick look at it and it's perfect but almost €350 per pump. I need at least two, I'll ask the wife if she doesn't mind cancelling our Easter holiday first

this is the same pump just with a simpler display but still does all the functions I find it works Brilliant

http://productfinder.wilo.com/de/en/c0000002d0000270200030023/product.html



Your System seems very Complex using 4 Pumps could you not have only 2 pumps one for stove and one for Boiler and Zone Valves for Zones

I presume you have a seperate Primary Circuit for the Stove

This is the same price as any Decent Pump

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wilo-Domestic-circulating-1-6-130-4164018/dp/B00D43NVI8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1486396888&sr=8-2&keywords=wilo+pump

I got one on Done Deal for 60Euro and it was still in Box as new worth keeping an eye out

chuck eastwood

xl500 wrote: »

this is the same pump just with a simpler display but still does all the functions I find it works Brilliant

http://productfinder.wilo.com/de/en/c0000002d0000270200030023/product.html



Your System seems very Complex using 4 Pumps could you not have only 2 pumps one for stove and one for Boiler and Zone Valves for Zones

I presume you have a seperate Primary Circuit for the Stove

This is the same price as any Decent Pump

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wilo-Domestic-circulating-1-6-130-4164018/dp/B00D43NVI8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1486396888&sr=8-2&keywords=wilo+pump

I got one on Done Deal for 60Euro and it was still in Box as new worth keeping an eye out

Thanks for that, I'll definitely check out that pump. I'm going to ring system link in the morning to see if they recommend using valves. I seem to remember reading the literature at the time saying they advised the use of pumps. I just went on their recommendations. If there was sufficient flow from the circulating pump to feed upstairs and downstairs via vales it would make life a lot easier plus halving my energy consumption

xl500

chuck eastwood wrote: »

Thanks for that, I'll definitely check out that pump. I'm going to ring system link in the morning to see if they recommend using valves. I seem to remember reading the literature at the time saying they advised the use of pumps. I just went on their recommendations. If there was sufficient flow from the circulating pump to feed upstairs and downstairs via vales it would make life a lot easier plus halving my energy consumption

NO I think using the systemlink you need a pump for each circuit it just seems a lot of energy to be using at least 3 pumps most of the time

You could do it with one pump but would have to remove system link and install Zone valves and have a seperate primary circuit for Stove but thats probably too big a job easier to pay the pump bill

Those modulating pumps i find work very well if you could find one one Done deal and try it you wouldnt be out much

chuck eastwood

xl500 wrote: »

NO I think using the systemlink you need a pump for each circuit it just seems a lot of energy to be using at least 3 pumps most of the time

You could do it with one pump but would have to remove system link and install Zone valves and have a seperate primary circuit for Stove but thats probably too big a job easier to pay the pump bill


Those modulating pumps i find work very well if you could find one one Done deal and try it you wouldnt be out much

Yeah it's not worth a full redesign of the system as I find the system link is excellent at combining the boiler and stove flows. My fuel bills are way down by just being careful and fitting proper controls on each zone. I think pumps similar to yours are the way forward as at some point in the next year or two I'll probably ad an extension with a few more rads. You have been very helpful, really appreciate it

chuck eastwood

xl500 wrote: »

this is the same pump just with a simpler display but still does all the functions I find it works Brilliant

http://productfinder.wilo.com/de/en/c0000002d0000270200030023/product.html



Your System seems very Complex using 4 Pumps could you not have only 2 pumps one for stove and one for Boiler and Zone Valves for Zones

I presume you have a seperate Primary Circuit for the Stove

This is the same price as any Decent Pump

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wilo-Domestic-circulating-1-6-130-4164018/dp/B00D43NVI8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1486396888&sr=8-2&keywords=wilo+pump

I got one on Done Deal for 60Euro and it was still in Box as new worth keeping an eye out

Quick update on this. I tried a grundfos GRUNDFOS UPS2 15-50/60 as the Tuscon pump failed. Disaster, the flow rate was way to much and the noise was unbearable. Took it out after a day and after doing some research on the flow rates and data sheet curves which melted my brain i settled on the WILO YONOS PICO 25/1-6-130. Maybe €30 more expensive than a standard 3 speed pump but it is esseantally VSD pump with settings for rads or underfloor.

My original problem with flow noise has gone and as you can see in the attached photo with amp clamp meter attached the energy consumption is extremely low compared to any standard 3 speed pump that meets thr new regs

xl500

chuck eastwood wrote: »

Quick update on this. I tried a grundfos GRUNDFOS UPS2 15-50/60 as the Tuscon pump failed. Disaster, the flow rate was way to much and the noise was unbearable. Took it out after a day and after doing some research on the flow rates and data sheet curves which melted my brain i settled on the WILO YONOS PICO 25/1-6-130. Maybe €30 more expensive than a standard 3 speed pump but it is esseantally VSD pump with settings for rads or underfloor.

My original problem with flow noise has gone and as you can see in the attached photo with amp clamp meter attached the energy consumption is extremely low compared to any standard 3 speed pump that meets thr new regs

Great Glad its working the Wilos Pump is way better than the Grundfos From a control perspective you can now experiment with it and find the lowest head setting that still meets the heating load also has auto Air ejection Variable Head or fixed head Constant Pressure or Delta P Great Pump

Problem really from the start was your Circuits were so small even at the Lowest setting the other Pumps were creating too much flow so noise, this Wilos will modulate down to very low head depending on load even if you turn on off rads you will see it modulate way better than Grundfos which I find has very coarse regulation