Thining Question

forestnewbeee

Is it a done thing to just get one area of your forest thinned or would it be more common to have it all done in one go? What would be the disadvantages of doing one part and not the other if any? I know its a bit of an odd question im asking here out of the fear thats its a stupid question as not to embarras myself in real life with the forester.

Melodeon

It's all about being cost effective and economic.
Unless you're doing it yourself and have a way of doing something with the product (firewood, very small volume roundwood sales, whatever), a contractor looking at a thinning job is going to have to have it worth their while doing the job and ending up with enough product to sell to justify the whole exercise.

Truly selective piecemeal thinning will produce the best possible final crop at the end of the rotation, but economic reality dictates that the great majority of forestry will be done by machine over the largest feasible area at a time.

timfromtang

Melodeon wrote: »

It's all about being cost effective and economic.
Unless you're doing it yourself and have a way of doing something with the product (firewood, very small volume roundwood sales, whatever), a contractor looking at a thinning job is going to have to have it worth their while doing the job and ending up with enough product to sell to justify the whole exercise.

Truly selective piecemeal thinning will produce the best possible final crop at the end of the rotation, but economic reality dictates that the great majority of forestry will be done by machine over the largest feasible area at a time.

I'd like to add, that piecemeal selective thinning can be rewarding and a lot can be achieved with a chainsaw and a farm tractor and winch, whilst thinning our first hardwoods (ourselves) in 2013 we discovered that a ring feeder (used for feeding cattle silage bales) strapped to a round bale carrier on edge with a couple of good strong lorry straps was an excellent way of recovering firewood lengths, 6 ft lengths stack nicely in the ring and you can carry a big load (which can be "tipped" out at the yard), similarly a back loader with the bucket removed and a loop of chain can be used to "skid" bundles of hardwood thinnings. Dry it well, or sell it wet and unprocessed, a combination works well, sell a portion wet and unprocessed to finance petrol, chains, ppe, wedges, etc, retain the rest, dry well and sell, Quality locally grown firewood is a premium product and easy to sell.

similarly i suggest it should be possible to cut softwoods (well and tidily limbed) to suitable lengths and sell for pulp or pulp and pallet using just a farm tractor and winch, haul em to roadside, tidy em up, a neighbour or contractor with a loader could help perhaps with stack building, I admit i have no experience of softwoods yet, i've 7 acres of norway spruce to tackle next year.

so I'd say on balance you can thin your forest a bit at a time and of course you will recover the maximum income also by so doing, but it'll be sloooow and pullin an draggin, I've found that two folk are best working a winch in the forest.

medium sized farm tractor and winch skidding logs, i'd estimate 30 to 50 round trips would be required per lorry load of timber moved from forest to roadside. I'm talking whole tree lengths here, and would suggest sorting and cutting to length at the roadside, leave the brash (branches leaves etc) in the forest, we often do not brash the tree at the felling site, we wait until we are on the next muddy bit and brash the tree directly where the brash is needed to reduce damage to the forest from rutting and draggging.

you buy the diesel, petrol, do the work, and sell the timber, get paid for your time and for your produce.

Hopefully your forester would be keen to help you in this regard

I'd suggest that you take great care that your produce is presented to your customer exactly as they would wish.

hope this helps
tim

timfromtang

a word about economic reality,

it is what we (who grow trees) make it

for example
hire a contractor for your thinning lets imagine you do well and have a remainder of 7 euro per cubic metre, yet........ the timber was sold for 44 a tonne at the sawmill weighbridge

figures here are not meant to be accurate example only

say you spend 44 saturdays of the year, thin selectively, taking out the urgent first, favouring "stems with a future" by clearing space around for them to grow into, removing all the diseased stems, forked stems etc, loads of thinning guidelines out there and you've a forester to instruct you,
some of the saturdays are spent drawing timber, you manage to get up 4-6 lorry loads of timber to roadside stacked, you have to pay 8 euro per tonne for haulage, you've taken care to present your timber well and get 44 a tonne, there's about 22 tonne on a lorry i think,

will you enjoy your 44 saturdays, ??

or be dissapointed at whats left over after the contractor

tim

Means Of Escape

Does one have to get a felling licence before any thining can be done on the forest ?

timfromtang

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Does one have to get a felling licence before any thining can be done on the forest ?

YEP
FOR SURE
TWOULD BE A GOOD IDEA
leastwas there's loadsa folk who believe you must and loadsa bits a paper wid words on the say YOU MUST or some such etc etc,, tis a good idea to have a registered forester advise you, choose one who will answer the phone and agree with you the objectives before advising you, etc

I am real happy with the advise and help i get from SWS forestry

tim

greysides

timfromtang wrote: »

.....using just a farm tractor and winch, haul em to roadside, tidy em up, a neighbour or contractor with a loader could help perhaps with stack building...

Question: Are there safety implications to using a winch in such situations on your own?

I thinking of wire rope breakage etc.

Maybe there's enough implications to just being in woods on your own with the type of equipment that would be needed..?

timfromtang

Sure there are safety implications, using a tractor and chainsaw alone in the woods can be perilous, especially if approached with little knowledge and lack of mindfulness.

PPE personal protective equipment is essential HOWEVER it is not a replacement for mindfullness and care.

The right tools in good condition are essential, wedges, felling lever, axe.

I always prefer to work in company in the woods, someone who will come along and simply watch alone makes you much safer, a helper is best though.

you will note i mentioned several times that two folk are much more productive, they are potentially also safer if the culture of mindfulness and care is right.
Fortunately in a first thin operation the trees are light enough, a good way to cut your teeth so to speak,
get training
get advise
get experienced company
go and help an experienced man and learn
Take care
tim

forestnewbeee

timfromtang wrote: »

a word about economic reality,

it is what we (who grow trees) make it

for example
hire a contractor for your thinning lets imagine you do well and have a remainder of 7 euro per cubic metre, yet........ the timber was sold for 44 a tonne at the sawmill weighbridge

figures here are not meant to be accurate example only

say you spend 44 saturdays of the year, thin selectively, taking out the urgent first, favouring "stems with a future" by clearing space around for them to grow into, removing all the diseased stems, forked stems etc, loads of thinning guidelines out there and you've a forester to instruct you,
some of the saturdays are spent drawing timber, you manage to get up 4-6 lorry loads of timber to roadside stacked, you have to pay 8 euro per tonne for haulage, you've taken care to present your timber well and get 44 a tonne, there's about 22 tonne on a lorry i think,

will you enjoy your 44 saturdays, ??

or be dissapointed at whats left over after the contractor

tim

Thanks Tim, this is what I am thinking. The forester is really sound but the deal was a harvester would come down take the wood and we get so much a ton.

The harvester was coming from two counties over. But we have a sawmills up the road (less then 1k). I'm new to this and fairly wet behind the ears so I've been buying books and learning as much as I can. I did a chainsaw course last year and have been doing bits and bobs around the forest since. We've put off the thinning with the forester for the time being as I try to learn more things and because there is no rush at the moment, we have the felling license for 5 years.

Ideally I want to make a life of this by storing and seasoning the wood myself, processing locally and selling locally, I want to start making charcoal, producing mushrooms, try to grow gingsing and other stuff. I think ill do as much as I can with myself and a few lads and try get some more experience myself. Its not the typical woodland venture as you can see.

Melodeon

forestnewbeee wrote: »

...but the deal was a harvester would come down take the wood and we get so much a ton.

This is how commercial forestry is managed, intending to produce the maximum possible high value sawlog over a reasonable timeframe, then replanting and starting the cycle again.

Your intentions sound much more like the ethos of the good people at ProSilva Ireland (https://prosilvaireland.wordpress.com/), managing forestry to produce a variety of timber products in an unending cycle of continuous growth and regeneration, extending to the traditional woodland crafts and managenent systems promoted by Muintir na Coille (http://www.muintirnacoille.ie/)

Both of these bodies would be well worth your while contacting.