Monks and alchemy .

Fighting leprechaun 20

ive been thinking is it possible irish monks were well versed and practiced alchemy . is there any solid evidence for this ?

some famous examples of irish monks of the time . St. Columcille,St. Brendan the Mariner,st columban ,St. Fridolin . St. Kilian. Firghil. Siadhal.

l remember st kevin is said to have a keen eye for alchemy . its possible he or another irish monk invented whiskey . l remember something being mentioned in the lives of irish monks by plummer.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://archive.org/details/bethada02plumuoft&ved=0ahUKEwiIyaeWnuDRAhWrDsAKHSv9BMIQFghGMAU&usg=AFQjCNFZuYYGSZlnFEo13lGPTzbdqTwucw&sig2=yy73Y3aGpLwfVWrNfFnTqQ

is there any solid evidence of alchemy in ireland in the 6th century . maybe a mention in some manuscript someone has missed ?

Robert Swinhurst an Anglo-Irishman of the 17th century had mentioned whiskey .

"Being moderatlie taken, saith he, it sloweth age, it strengneth youth, it helpeth digestion, it cutteth flegme, it abandoneth melancholie, it relisheth the heart, it lighteneth the mind, it quickeneth the spirit...it keepeth and preserveth the head from whirling, the eies from dazeling, the toong from lisping, the mouth from maffling, the teeth from chattering, and the throat from rattling; ...it keepeth the stomach from wambling, and the heart from swelling, the bellie from wirtching, the guts from rumbling, the hands from shivering and the sinews from shrinking, the veines from crumpling, the bones from aking, and the marrow from soaking. "

The oldest known written record of whiskey comes from Ireland in 1405 . but surely it predates this .

l know the irish made it to germany . france . iceland actually were the first people in iceland even before the vikings . Austria, Slovak. Switzerland, Holland, Italy ..to name a few .

why not say syria ?

anything?

Peregrinus

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

ive been thinking is it possible irish monks were well versed and practiced alchemy . is there any solid evidence for this ? . . .

is there any solid evidence of alchemy in ireland in the 6th century . maybe a mention in some manuscript someone has missed ?

No, SFAIK there's no such evidence. And furthermore it's not very likely that any kind of alchemy was practiced in Ireland at that time.

Alchemy is generally regarded as having arrived in Western/Latin Europe in the 12th century. It came from the Islamic world, part of the cultural exchange that accompanied the crusades. It's not likely that there was any alchemy practised in Irealdn until some time after that date.

Chisler2

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

ive been thinking is it possible irish monks were well versed and practiced alchemy . is there any solid evidence for this ?

some famous examples of irish monks of the time . St. Columcille,St. Brendan the Mariner,st columban ,St. Fridolin .  St. Kilian. Firghil. Siadhal.

l remember st kevin is said to have a keen eye for alchemy . its possible he or another irish monk invented whiskey . l remember something being mentioned in the lives of irish monks by plummer.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://archive.org/details/bethada02plumuoft&ved=0ahUKEwiIyaeWnuDRAhWrDsAKHSv9BMIQFghGMAU&usg=AFQjCNFZuYYGSZlnFEo13lGPTzbdqTwucw&sig2=yy73Y3aGpLwfVWrNfFnTqQ

is there any solid evidence of alchemy in ireland in the 6th century . maybe a mention in some manuscript someone has missed ?

Robert Swinhurst an Anglo-Irishman of the 17th century had mentioned whiskey .

"Being moderatlie taken, saith he, it sloweth age, it strengneth youth, it helpeth digestion, it cutteth flegme, it abandoneth melancholie, it relisheth the heart, it lighteneth the mind, it quickeneth the spirit...it keepeth and preserveth the head from whirling, the eies from dazeling, the toong from lisping, the mouth from maffling, the teeth from chattering, and the throat from rattling; ...it keepeth the stomach from wambling, and the heart from swelling, the bellie from wirtching, the guts from rumbling, the hands from shivering and the sinews from shrinking, the veines from crumpling, the bones from aking, and the marrow from soaking. "

The oldest known written record of whiskey comes from Ireland in 1405 . but surely it predates this .

l know the irish made it to germany . france . iceland actually were the first people in iceland even before the vikings . Austria, Slovak. Switzerland, Holland, Italy ..to name a few .

why not say syria ?

anything?

Not exactly "alchemy" but it is certainly a respectful appreciation of the good effects of alcohol taken in moderation.

Fighting leprechaun 20

Chisler2 wrote: »

Not exactly "alchemy" but it is certainly a respectful appreciation of the good effects of alcohol taken in moderation.

The Origins of Alcohol are most certainly Alchemic .....

Fighting leprechaun 20

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, SFAIK there's no such evidence. And furthermore it's not very likely that any kind of alchemy was practiced in Ireland at that time.

Alchemy is generally regarded as having arrived in Western/Latin Europe in the 12th century. It came from the Islamic world, part of the cultural exchange that accompanied the crusades. It's not likely that there was any alchemy practised in Irealdn until some time after that date.

My reasoining for this is pretty clear and while it might not yet be accepted l think its worth pondering . We know irish monks travled around the world but to what extent . From the 7th century on, Irish churchmen such as Columbanus and Columba were active in Gaul, in Scotland and in Anglo-Saxon England. Germany . Ect . Why not the middle east ?

Keep in mind people would have laughed if you told them the vikings made it all the way to north america or china but they did as amazing as that sounds .

I brought up Saint Cóemgen as an example and l beileve its a good one . Just like the vikings were its tought to be of myth but st kevin was said to be able to heal the sick and create odd elixirs.

Óengus of Tallaght (fl. 800) there is mention of seven Egyptian monks in this irish manuscript and once more they are printed on papyrus. Maybe irish monks brought it back from the middle east ? There is also a Ballycotton brooch which has arbic transcribed on it from the 9th century.

I dont see why irish monks could not have learned alchemy in the middle east like the myths say .

You can see in the book of kells theres a depiction of a angel holding a flabella.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-P6fgqqCmI3U/T4Y9-QQegBI/AAAAAAAAANo/WZaYom2Vp4I/s1600/flabella.jpg

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_image.aspx?objectId=88065&partId=1&orig=/research/search_the_collection_database.aspx&numPages=10&currentPage=1&asset_id=867280




Thats the crux of it .

Peregrinus

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

The Origins of Alcohol are most certainly Alchemic .....

No, they're not. Until you discover pasteurisation your problem is not getting things to ferment; it's stopping them from fermentation. Grape juice ferments, for example, unless you (a) drink it while fresh or (b) pasteurise it. You don't need alchemy, or anything like it, to discover alcohol and its many attractions.

Peregrinus

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

. . . I dont see why irish monks could not have learned alchemy in the middle east like the myths say .

I'm not aware of any myths that say that Irish monks learned alchemy in the Middle East.

It is possible. Well, it's not impossible. Let's just say that we have no reason to think that it happened. A mention of "seven Egyptian monks" in an Irish manuscript is not evidence that anyone went from Ireland to Egypt; it's just evidence that someone in Ireland knew that Egypt existed and knew that there were monks there. And, even if someone did go from Egypt to Ireland, and did bring back papyrus (as opposed to, say, buying it from a trader) there's no reason to think that they also brought back alchemy. The fact that St. Kevin could "heal the sick" and "create odd elixirs" doesn't suggest that he practised alchemy, unless you count all forms of care for the sick/primitive medicine as "alchemy", in which case there is no reason to associate alchemy with the Islamic world. If that's your understanding of alchemy, then not only was Ireland practising alchemy in the sixth century (and long before); the whole world was.

Fighting leprechaun 20

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, they're not. Until you discover pasteurisation your problem is not getting things to ferment; it's stopping them from fermentation. Grape juice ferments, for example, unless you (a) drink it while fresh or (b) pasteurise it. You don't need alchemy, or anything like it, to discover alcohol and its many attractions.

istillation of spiritous liquor was indeed pioneered by alchemists... this is up for debate .in much the same way that you know gold plating was. distillations of alcohol have been mentioned for a very long time in alchemy .

alchemical Fermentation is most most certainly apart of alchemy . Can you please stop making so many spelling errors and grammatical mistakes it makes your comments look pretty sloppy .

Peregrinus

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

istillation of spiritous liquor was indeed pioneered by alchemists... this is up for debate .in much the same way that you know gold plating was. distillations of alcohol have been mentioned for a very long time in alchemy .

alchemical Fermentation is most most certainly apart of alchemy . Can you please stop making so many spelling errors and grammatical mistakes it makes your comments look pretty sloppy .

The post who starts his first paragraph with the word "istillation" and his second paragraph with "alchemical Fermentation" when what he means is "Alchemical fermentation" would be wise not to complain about the spelling errors, grammatical mistakes and sloppiness of others. Just sayin'.

I'm aware that alchemists practiced both distillation and fermentation. However they didn't invent either process. Fermentation, as already pointed out, occurs naturally and distillation predates alchemy. Alcohol was known to, produced by and consumed by societies which never encountered alchemy, and if there was any society in history which only encountered alcohol as a result of alchemy, now would be a good time for you to mention it.

Manach

MOD NOTE:
@Fighting leprechaun 20 - please refrain from postings that are verging on uncivil on your fellow posters, as per general Forum charter.

Fighting leprechaun 20

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not aware of any myths that say that Irish monks learned alchemy in the Middle East.

It is possible. Well, it's not impossible. Let's just say that we have no reason to think that it happened. A mention of "seven Egyptian monks" in an Irish manuscript is not evidence that anyone went from Ireland to Egypt; it's just evidence that someone in Ireland knew that Egypt existed and knew that there were monks there. And, even if someone did go from Egypt to Ireland, and did bring back papyrus (as opposed to, say, buying it from a trader) there's no reason to think that they also brought back alchemy. The fact that St. Kevin could "heal the sick" and "create odd elixirs" doesn't suggest that he practised alchemy, unless you count all forms of care for the sick/primitive medicine as "alchemy", in which case there is no reason to associate alchemy with the Islamic world. If that's your understanding of alchemy, then not only was Ireland practising alchemy in the sixth century (and long before); the whole world was.

Thank you for replying . . I think we have ever reason to think that. I probably should have explained the context l just thought you would have looked at the evidence . The context : in the book of kells which l mentioned it reads theres seven Egyptian monks buried in Uilaigh lreland .this strongly supports the thoery of Egyptian monks visting ireland . Is it possible all egyptian artifacts in ireland were bought by traders . Maybe sure though l dont think so .

I think you misinterperted what l meant l was more thinking along the lines of ocult which was present in alchemy . It has been said that st kevin learned to make perfume from the middle east and made a drinkable spirt later known as poitín. Thats all im saying . Many monks were said to have known alchemy .

You bring up a good point but its well known a monk's goal is the pursuit of learning and teaching of knowledge in the name of god. All monks have some understanding of proto scientific fields . If egyptian monks did interact with irish monks they would have taught their knowledge as shown for centuries .

So you are assuming every eqyptian artifact in ireland came from traders and the acconts of monks at the time are all lies ? And any egyptian influnce clearly shown in the works of irish monks is just a mere coincidence. Which btw l would love for you to explain how if it was not egyptian monks that influnced the works of irish monks . Where exactly did these come from ?

It is said that Saint Enda of Aran:
Abbot of Aran had great lnflunce from egyptian hermit monks .

Fighting leprechaun 20

Manach wrote: »

MOD NOTE:
@Fighting leprechaun 20 - please refrain from postings that are verging on uncivil on your fellow posters, as per general Forum charter.

What about this post is uncivil ?

Fighting leprechaun 20

Peregrinus wrote: »

The post who starts his first paragraph with the word "istillation" and his second paragraph with "alchemical Fermentation" when what he means is "Alchemical fermentation" would be wise not to complain about the spelling errors, grammatical mistakes and sloppiness of others. Just sayin'.

I'm aware that alchemists practiced both distillation and fermentation. However they didn't invent either process. Fermentation, as already pointed out, occurs naturally and distillation predates alchemy. Alcohol was known to, produced by and consumed by societies which never encountered alchemy, and if there was any society in history which only encountered alcohol as a result of alchemy, now would be a good time for you to mention it.

Who are you to say there wasnt ? Do you have any evidence that the discovery of alchohol spontaneously just happened without any knowledge . Maybe -perhapes- a precursor to alchemy who are you to say otherwise . . It is unfair for us in the modern times to try and determine without soild evidence what was and was not in the past .l only brought it up because his comments are barely readable .yours isnt exactly great ether tbh .l sense a tone of Agonistic behaviour from you ... not sure what the cause is .... anyway Back on topic .

Peregrinus

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

Who are you to say there wasnt ? Do you have any evidence that the discovery of alchohol spontaneously just happened without any knowledge .

Well, as already pointed out, fermentation is a process that occurs naturally until you are sufficiently technologically advanced to work out how to stop it. So if your hypothesis is that nobody encountered alcohol until alchemists worked out how to synthesise it, you'd need to offer some reason for suggesting that nobody noticed fermentation happening for tens of thousands of years until alchemy came along. Until you deal with that point you can't expect anybody to take your suggestino seriously.

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

Maybe -perhapes- a precursor to alchemy who are you to say otherwise . . It is unfair for us in the modern times to try and determine without soild evidence what was and was not in the past .l only brought it up because his comments are barely readable .yours isnt exactly great ether tbh .l sense a tone of Agonistic behaviour from you ... not sure what the cause is .... anyway Back on topic .

Karma's a bitch, isn't it?

Fighting leprechaun 20

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, as already pointed out, fermentation is a process that occurs naturally until you are sufficiently technologically advanced to work out how to stop it. So if your hypothesis is that nobody encountered alcohol until alchemists worked out how to synthesise it, you'd need to offer some reason for suggesting that nobody noticed fermentation happening for tens of thousands of years until alchemy came along. Until you deal with that point you can't expect anybody to take your suggestino seriously.


Karma's a bitch, isn't it?

*suggestino* ? Whats that ? Thats not a word .
The problem with you is you cant spell . Its pretty sad tbh .

Im suggesting what we consider chemistry may not be correct . Perhaps a proto of sorts and who are you to say there wasnt .

Fighting leprechaun 20

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, as already pointed out, fermentation is a process that occurs naturally until you are sufficiently technologically advanced to work out how to stop it. So if your hypothesis is that nobody encountered alcohol until alchemists worked out how to synthesise it, you'd need to offer some reason for suggesting that nobody noticed fermentation happening for tens of thousands of years until alchemy came along. Until you deal with that point you can't expect anybody to take your suggestino seriously.


Karma's a bitch, isn't it?

What karma ? Oh you mean your karma .

Peregrinus

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

What karma?

I mean the karma reflected in the fact that, every time you depart from the subject of this thread to complain about other posters' spelling and grammatical errors, your writing descends into an incoherent screed, with a dense concentration of bad grammar, gratuitous spelling errors, sloppy and inaccurate punctuation, and unfinished sentences.

Or had you not noticed that?

Fighting leprechaun 20

Peregrinus wrote: »

I mean the karma reflected in the fact that, every time you depart from the subject of this thread to complain about other posters' spelling and grammatical errors, your writing descends into an incoherent screed, with a dense concentration of bad grammar, gratuitous spelling errors, sloppy and inaccurate punctuation, and unfinished sentences.

Or had you not noticed that?

Is it not your karma and kinda ironic that you have the literacy skills of a toddler ? You cant even spell a simple word .what spelling errors have l made? l have only complained once you brought up my grammar as a blacklash to me pointing out you both have missspelled half the words youve typed on this theard . You seem to have trouble with even bassic words a 9 year old could spell . You have made the same spelling erors over and over again .do everyone a favour and get someone else to type for you . Hey At least l can spell

Back on topic.

Peregrinus

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

Is it not your karma and kinda ironic that you have the literacy skills of a toddler ? You cant even spell a simple word .what spelling errors have l made?

Seriously? You sure you want to go down this road? Well, since you ask:

"ive" (Your very first word in your very first post in this thread is misspelled.)
"reasoining"
"traveld"
"ect"
"beileve"
"tought"
"a flabella" (where "a flabellum" is intended)
"arbic" (where "Arabic" is intended - spelling and capitalisation errors in the one word!)
"istillation"
"perhapes"
"soild"
"ether" (where "either" is intended)
"apart" (where "a part" is intended)
"Agonistic" (where "antagonistic" is intended)
"cant" (where "can't" is intended)
"theard"
"bassic"
"erors"
"missspelled" (particularly karmic, those last three)

And that's before we get on to your apparently random distribution of capital letters, omitting them where they are required and inserting them where they are not required, and your habit of starting sentences that you cannot be bothered to finish. None of this improves the readability of your posts.

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

l have only complained once you brought up my grammar as a blacklash to me pointing out you both have missspelled half the words youve typed on this theard .

This is not true. You attacked both my spelling and my grammar in post #8. But for that, I would have said nothing about either your spelling or your grammar.

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

Hey At least l can spell

If so, we see little evidence of it in this thread.

Fighting leprechaun 20 wrote: »

Back on topic.

A topic you were unwise ever to have left, to be honest. Stop digging, FL.

Manach

MOD Note:
This thread looks to have reached its natural conclusion and is moving off-topic. Hence closing.