Black Powder swing breech gun.

Nekarsulm

Would anyone on here have any knowledge of old fowling pieces? Was looking at one today in a local auction room. Seems to be 10 bore. (Could be 8 bore)
Swinging breech with the hammer hitting a firing pin which extends through the solid breech block to hit a primer in the cartridge.

Grizzly 45

Tac will no doubt be along shortly..:D
Sounds like a old Prussian needle rifle system..
Any chance of p pic even from the auctioneers catolouge /website?

Nekarsulm

Hi Grizzley, online catalogue goes live at the weekend, I might go back and get a pic and a few measurements if I get a chance tomorrow.
Its almost 6 feet long, must be 15 lbs...
Amongst a bunch of old muskets and pistols, there is a nice mk4 303 carbine type LE.

tac foley

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Would anyone on here have any knowledge of old fowling pieces? Was looking at one today in a local auction room. Seems to be 10 bore. (Could be 8 bore)
Swinging breech with the hammer hitting a firing pin which extends through the solid breech block to hit a primer in the cartridge.

TPIUWAP!

tac

Nekarsulm

tac foley wrote: »

TPIUWAP!

tac

TOMORROW!



Edit: Actually catalogue online now, but I'll go back tomorrow and get better pics. Lot 825

http://www.cloverhillauctioneers.com/auction_list.php?page=2&posted_category=WEAPO

Grizzly 45

Got a couple of intresting bits in there.Be tempted to bid on two of them myself.

tac foley

Sad to say, but the auctioneers appear to know as much about antique firearms as I do about the transformatory nucleic morphology of the gamete in the over-forty population of Botswana.

#825 is neither a 'rolling block' nor any kind of rifle.

Wish I lived in Ireland, me - the 'duelling pistols' alone would be worth the trip over, although no doubt I'd have to have them deactivated as they are clearly weapons of mass destruction, even though they are neither black, nor have long magazines.

tac

Nekarsulm

Had a look this evening, that "rifle" (goose gun!) measures about .960" at the breech. Which would equate to probably an 8 bore, allowing for my rough and ready use of a set of Lidl digital calipers.
"L Wood " stamped on the lock, and something like "Mulerr" still just about discernable on these top of the octagon shaped section of the barrel.
No sign of how you would get a cartridge out, bar using a ramrod.
Two rows of pitting in the barrel at the 2 and 10 o'clock position.
His reserve is too high for me, for an ornament.


Those last pair of cased pistols are very nice indeed!

tac foley

I have no idea where you got the 'Schneider' from, but it is, in fact, a Mark II or III Snider action service rifle or smoothbore made over into a shotgun. The early version did not have the catch on the breech block, but relied on just the detent in the breech to ensure closure without opening. You can see where the detent latch, on the back of the breechblock, locates into the circular hole in the breech plug.

The Snider conversion, the invention of an American, Jacob Snider - by which the British Pattern 53 rifled musket was converted from a muzzleloader to a single-shot breechloader, was the first British service arm to take a metallic cartridge. I suspect that this was an Indian-made conversion, since a British gun of the time would have been liberally slathered with proof marks all over the action. It is, however, nicely done, and the checkering on the fore-end is impressive. It's a pity that the condition is so dire. Many Sniders, formerly in service with the British Army of the Raj, were converted into sporting guns and shotguns. The British, in their usual fashion, gave the locally-raised units smooth-bored guns, and not the more accurate rifles - just in case, doncha know? A recent cache of Sniders in Nepal consisted of over 15,000 of these firearms.

Your measurement is not far out - the Snider cartridge is HUGE. See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Snider
and - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider%E2%80%93Enfield

Jacob Snider convinced the British Board of Ordnance that his conversion costing about twelve shillings and threepence, as superior to the almost identical French model invented by Tabatiére.

This being a metallic cartridge arm, the empty case is ejected by smartly pulling back on the 'shoe' against the pressure of a helical spring that is contained inside the housing that you can see on the right-hand side of the opened breech. The extractor on it engages the rim of the case and pulls it out.

I have two Canadian-issued Snider rifles in their original calibre of .577 Henry-Boxer-Snider - you can see me shooting them on Youtube - tac's guns Snider.

PM me if you want to see more images. In spite of Cass' welcome help I am no nearer posting images here than I was before I asked.

tac

Nekarsulm

Thanks Tac foir that. My rough spelling was just to label the files on the PC.
I had found, via Google images, the Snider patent application etc.
The Martini rifle listed is a poor thing. Unbelievably, someone has used a bench grinder to remove rust from the length of the barrel. It looks like it may have been hidden in a wall of a shed or barn for half a century.
There iis a very nice looking Steyr 1902 rifle, but I don't see it listed on the web site.

riffmongous

Lot 863
19th. C. ladies muff pistol.

That's an.. unusual.. name, better google it...

The smaller ones were described as "Muff Pistols" because they were often concealed in a lady's muff, although they could also be slipped inside a Gentleman's ...

:eek:

tac foley

'snot a muff pistol not anything like it. It is a Flobert cartridge salon pistol intended for very short range fun, after-dinner shooting amusement.

It is in .22 Flobert calibre. Made in Belgium by the hundred-thousand......it might be worth as much as 10eu, but no more.

tac

kowloon

Have the licence rules changed for cartridge firearms or is he auctioning the Martini-Henry for a licence holder?

Nekarsulm

All those guns came from the same collector. The M-H is the worst of the lot. Looks like it was a back street Afghan effort.
Dunno about the current rules, all those being sold ass decorative pieces, I think.

kowloon

Could well be a Khyber pass special . Just wondering about the licencing as I have to pay for a licence for mine and I'd be annoyed if it turned out they're no longer a requirement.

tac foley

kowloon wrote: »

Could well be a Khyber pass special . Just wondering about the licencing as I have to pay for a licence for mine and I'd be annoyed if it turned out they're no longer a requirement.

Why is that?

I'm betting that there is no way that you can shoot the thing in its original calibre in the RoI.

Unless, of course, you have a secret source of .577-450 calibre ammunition...

Maybe your M-H is in .303 British, though? In which case please ignore my post.

tac

kowloon

Mine is original calibre, but at the time anything that used unitary cartridges had to be licenced. Can walk out of an antique shop with that same thing over the border but I'm stuck paying for a licence here. If this has changed I'm happy as it'll save me money and hassle. I already keep it secure and that wouldn't change.

tac foley

Of course. The newspapers are chockful of reports of criminals holding up banks, corner stores, supermarkets and terrorising home-owners with their five-foot long M-H single-shot black powder rifles, declared obsolete in 1888.

So you need a license to keep an unshootable firearm from the end of the 19th century hidden away in a gun cabinet...

Almost as bad as the UK where I can have nineteen Section 1 [rifled] firearms in my possession, but I cannot buy a plastic and tin airsoft toy run on batteries or gas without being a registered airsofter or reenactor...

Kafka lives in both our houses.

tac

kowloon

I've lived in the UK, VCR came out while I was there, quite a stupid set of restrictions. It doesn't take much for someone to repaint something if they want it to look real.

tac foley

..which of course is itself a criminal act, showing intent blah blah blah.....

tac

Grizzly 45

Compared one of the lots to a virtually same lot for sale in Europe. The Irish lot is in very poor condition and going for almost double the money as the EU version...

Have looked at a few other firearms being sold here in auctions in Ireland and I have to say...It seems like another ripoff game here .. Try and get huge money for rusty POS,just because they are "firearms". Unless there is some history that is provable with these guns or they are in better condition,as most of these would be in the "bargin bin" at any other auction house. I'll save my money.

gunny123

I did notice a Webley .455 revolver for sale in the link to the auction house. Surely a no-no to be sold at auction to a member of the public ?

tac foley

'unfamiliarity breeds greed....'

Sadly, it's pretty easy to sell either a total frawk, or a POS scrap-iron that's had a session with steel wool, thus removing ALL collector interest, but making the item in question look 'spiffy' to the untrained eye.

You can bet that if somebody threw it away a hundred and fifty years ago, it was because it was a piece of scrap-iron even then.

The only way to assure yourself of getting exactly what it reads on the tin to to buy from a up-front militaria dealer who knows his onions, and charges for the time he spends sorting the wheat from the chaff, of which there is much indeed.

I was lucky with my Sniders - one came from a friend of many years, with a known provenance and traceable history, even to the butt-numbered location in the armoury wall rack in the citadelle in Québec. The other had been in the same family since it was issued in the early 1870's, and, again, had a traceable history including fighting in the Fenian Rebellion ongoing at that time over in Canada. Either would cost way North of 1500eu, especially the pre-Confederation short rifle - a VERY sought-after and accurate shooter, as 303British would tell you on his Youtube adventures.

tac

tac foley

gunny123 wrote: »

I did notice a Webley .455 revolver for sale in the link to the auction house. Surely a no-no to be sold at auction to a member of the public ?

TBH, I would have thought so, as ammunition is still made by Fiocchi. That's why they are prohibited firearms on mainland UK, but not, of course, up in the North.

Might it have been 'deactivated'? Even so, in the RoI you'd still need some kind of a license for it, right?

tac

Grizzly 45

Just a permit from your local Super to own it.But who knows what with the new EU legislation on deacts?It might have to be re deacted to new specs,rendering it virtually a high tech awkward club,and you can ship it to the UK at extra charge to get this done in Birmingham along with the paperwork required.Or so I understand the ,more or less now enforced EU directive?

tac foley

It has not yet happened.

tac

juice1304

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Got a couple of intresting bits in there.Be tempted to bid on two of them myself.

lol me too one is a rimfire and the other a centerfire lol

juice1304

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just a  permit from your local Super to own it.But who knows what with the new EU legislation on deacts?It might have to be re deacted to new specs,rendering it virtually a high tech  awkward club,and you can ship it to the UK at extra charge to get this done in Birmingham along with the paperwork required.Or so I understand the ,more or less now enforced  EU directive?

If its already done its fine

Grizzly 45

Not if it is being offered for resale,or other change of ownership under the EU proposals.