Got sold a crashed car

Wildcard7

First of all: All is well, we got our money and the traded in car back.
Second of all: Yes, I'm an idiot. If a deal is too good to be true, and your gut tells you "no", listen to your gut. Not your bum that tells you it's a nice looking car and the price is fantastic.

Long story: At the end of 2016, we bought a 2012 car from a seller in Dublin. I checked various sites for a while to get a feel for the market and the prices and this car was an absolute standout. It looked better than any other (color of the paint, alloys, tinted windows, ticked all the boxes) and at 9k was about 1k cheaper than the next similar car. We went to go see it, had a very short test drive and fell in love with it. We then asked the salesperson a few questions about the car, one of them being "has it ever been crashed". He reassured us that no, it hadn't. It had a small scratch on the front right wheel arch that they painted, which I didn't care about. But it definitely hadn't been crashed. The salesperson even told us we could always take it to an independant garage if we didn't believe him.

Now, I'm Swiss, only living here since a few years. I'm not saying you don't get ripped off in Switzerland, but let's say it's a bit easier to trust people on things like this than it is here in Ireland, so maybe I am a bit naive. Still, I learned my lessons before, but sure a garage wouldn't lie about something that can be very easily verified, right? I mean they have a reputation to lose, and selling a crashed car claiming it hadn't been crashed is fraud, which I reckon can end up quite expensive, and unlike a private person a garage won't be able to tell the judge "oh sorry I had no clue what state the car was in, honestly like".

All those things considered we negotiated a price, they took our 12 year old ****ty car off us, I was a very happy camper.

Come Monday we rang them to get the number plates for the insurance. On a hunch I went to cartell.ie to get a report on the car. 35€ later I found out there's an accident logged against the car, back when it was in the UK (the car got imported from NI). It was a category D case (damaged but repairable), that the insurer chose not to repair. We then rang the garage to explain themselves. The garage said that the accident was only the scratch on the wheel arch. It was only a category D so that's nothing to be concerned about.

Now at first I thought noone in their right mind would run to their insurance if they only had a small scratch on their wheel arch. Then I thought of all the idiots that are out there (me, in hindsight, one of them) and I pictured this 20 year old kid that got his first car, scratched it, and assumed the insurance would pay for it. When he went there they told him that sure they'll repair it, but his premium would go through the roof. Then he decided to live with the scratch until he sold the car to the garage. Makes sense, right?

So we said alright we'll take the car off you, we will get it inspected by another garage right away though. Which, 3 days after picking it up, we did. I thought that was only a precaution, but what can I say: The car had definitely been crashed before, chassis still bent, cooler repaired but leaky. Wow.

We rang the garage to inform them of our findings. We rang and mailed them a few times, always talking to the salesperson that sold us the car in the first place. Here's some of the things he had to say:
- Your garage lies (I liked that one, especially after sending them pictures of the bent chassis where even I can tell that's not the way it's supposed to look)
- You didn't bring it to an independant garage, we will tell you an independant garage where you can bring it (maybe "independant" doesn't mean what I think it does)
- It's your own fault for not checking it out before you bought it
- It's still a very good car, every car has a scratch or two

It wasn't until 24 hours later that we got that w*nk*r to finally escalate this to the owner (who was on vacation), by telling him that we will file criminal charges if we don't get our money back. The owner then told him that we'd get the money back, but only once the office is staffed again in the middle of january. Mind you this was the weekend just before christmas so that flushed our christmas spirit down the toilet, especially since we still didn't have anything in writing, just the phone call.

Now we did get our old car and the money back last week. The owners son who brought our old car back and picked the crashed one up straight up admitted that they got this car as a trade in and only afterwards found out that it had been crashed, but they knew it when they sold it to us. We're still waiting on the log book and the service booklet (that they "lost" and only rediscovered after my wife rang them every 30 minutes to go find it) of our old car, but once that's done, we're sorted.

All in all we've lost about 100€, a couple hours, and a lot of nerves on this. The question is now what would you do in this situation? The garage is a small place run by eastern europeans, and my missus and her folks are worried that if we step on their toes it could turn out they have ties to organised crime (see Titanium) and we end up as fish food.

I don't really want to leave it at that though. At the very least I'd like to make sure that everyone who looks at buying a car from this garage in the future finds a big red warning if they bother googling for a minute. I can think of the following things:
- Inform the sites that have their cars listed that this is a fraudulent seller, send them all our evidence, maybe they'll unlist them
- Inform the NCT that we have reason to believe that we were sold a vehicle that might not be roadworthy. Maybe it'll have to be retested.
- Rate them low on every possible site (google, facebook, ...) explaining the whole ordeal
- Ultimately, file criminal charges. I've no idea what this would entail for us, as I'm lazy and I don't want to spend too much energy on this anymore (too much already) we'll most likely skip this.

What we have:
- A bill of sales that does not mention this is a car that's been previously crashed. It doesn't mention it's crash free either, but I'd assume that's the default and doesn't need to be mentioned.
- A report from our garage that says there's damage to the chassis and to the cooler, including photos
- A witness (related to us) that overheard the owners son say that they knew about the crash damage, when we handed the car back
- A piece of paper, signed by the owners son, that states that we have given the car back without any further damage, and that we have received our old car and the money. It also states that this is a withdrawal from the sale due to us being misinformed at the time of the sale. Basically they signed a piece of paper that states that we were misinformed when buying the car.

Legally speaking, it seems to me we hold all the aces, but I also like the current number of my fingers (10 is a a nice and even number) and while I'm a good swimmer I can only hold my breath for so long if someone dumps me in the sea with shoes made of concrete.

What would you do?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

I'd leave it. Anyone else buying a car off them is not your problem.

IrishZeus

Completely understand the frustration and annoyance and personally I would want to get even too.

However, I think that once I had a think about it, I would probably count my lucky stars to have had everything resolved and would move on to the purchase of the next (hopefully more reliable!) car.

I'm sure there will be a few here saying that that is just taking the easy way out and to fight them in court etc. but sometimes life is just too short. Lesson learned, you didn't get too badly stung - move on and try to forget about it.

Nuw

As above, I'd leave it be, they're not worth more of your time and you got money and car back from them, make sure you do have the logbook and other documents back ASAP and move on...

Considering the circumstances, I wonder if a mod would allow you to name them here? Probably not, as the issue seems to be "resolved" without too much hassle...

xabi

You knew it was crashed before you bought it. I'm sure that's the angle the garage will go for, id forget about it.

Cordell

I'd say make a complaint on the SIMI website and never buy from the like of us, eastern Europeans
Also a bent chassis should not be a cat D, unless you actually mean bent crash bar, which is supposed to be replaced after a crash rather than repaired.
Maybe post the pictures of the damage?

Cee-Jay-Cee

If it were me I'd be happy I got my money back and forget about it.

Wildcard7

Nuw wrote: »

Considering the circumstances, I wonder if a mod would allow you to name them here? Probably not, as the issue seems to be "resolved" without too much hassle...

First: Thanks for all the replies so far, I do appreciate them and I do take the advice onboard.
I'm not going to name them here, I don't think this is the appropriate place for this. If someone is currently in the process of buying a car and is worried about the place they can drop me a PM and I'll tell them whether it's their potential garage or not.

I disagree though that this is "resolved". There were/are two things going on: One is the matter that we got sold a car that was not as described. We have proof for that, which means the sales contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I'm glad they took the car back without us having to take them to court over it as that means less hassle for me, but if we had there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that we would not have won the case. I am not thankful that they took the car back without involving a court. I did not have to beg them to do it, it was the least they could do legally. Not going to court was in their interest a lot more than in ours. Anway, this part of the story is over - we have the money and our old car back, they have the other car back.

This does not change the fact though that they were scamming us. That's an entire separate thing alltogether - even if they brought our old car back with a flower bouquet, a bottle of whine and 500€ in cash for our trouble it would still not change the fact that they have commited fraud.

@xabi: I understand what you're saying, but we have a piece of paper that literally admits we have been misinformed by them that has been signed by them upon returning their car. They will not be able to claim that.

@cheezy: I don't agree that it's not my problem if someone else gets ripped off by them. I don't want to go through the same experience again, and noone else should have to learn the same thing about this place as I did. That's what reviews on google etc. are for.

Wildcard7

Cordell wrote: »

I'd say make a complaint on the SIMI website and never buy from the like of us, eastern Europeans
Also a bent chassis should not be a cat D, unless you actually mean bent crash bar, which is supposed to be replaced after a crash rather than repaired.
Maybe post the pictures of the damage?

I don't know what I mean, I'm just quoting my garage :-). I don't think I can post pictures or links as my post count is still too low, sorry.

webpal

"All in all we've lost about 100€"

Sounds like the best 100 you've ever spent

Wildcard7

Now let's see if that works (pictures):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/69702693/yaris/IMG-20161223-WA0001.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/69702693/yaris/IMG-20161223-WA0002.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/69702693/yaris/IMG-20161223-WA0003.jpg

ironclaw

I've lost count of the amount of cars I've inspected for people are dealers that were 'no crashed' but a man on the moon could see they had been. Its very common in the car industry and people really need to wise up to it. A 35EUR car tell report in your instance should have been enough to raise eyebrows and people really need to start doing this. Perhaps it was the way I was brought up, but I believe we need to pull back the blankets and give people a dose of reality when ample resources exist to stop this type of thing. We've raised an entire generation who blame the world for their problems (No offensive OP, general statement, not directed at yourself)

I'm not defending the dealer, it was wrong, but you'll stop a rain drop going over Niagara Falls. Any action you take will be inconsequential on the whole and unless you are happy to pursue at your own cost, I'd really let it lie. We must also remember, like any business, mistakes do happen. A CAT D in the UK can be very cosmetic and few dealers would dig much deeper than that. Some people may not even care if a car was a CAT D.

Wildcard7

ironclaw wrote: »

I'm not defending the dealer, it was wrong, but you'll stop a rain drop going over Niagara Falls. Any action you take will be inconsequential on the whole and unless you are happy to pursue at your own cost, I'd really let it lie. We must also remember, like any business, mistakes do happen. A CAT D in the UK can be very cosmetic and few dealers would dig much deeper than that. Some people may not even care if a car was a CAT D.

Thanks for that insight, I'll definitely consider that in the future.
I completely disagree with the first bit though. I do business with you. We agree on what I give you (x Money), and what you give me (car with certain features and properties). That is the very definition of a contract. If I lie to you (half my money is fake), or you lie to me (black car turns pink at the first wash), then that's 100% the fault of the party that told the lies. It is not my job to double check if you tell the truth.
There's sugar coating your sales pitch like "one lady owner" (who wondered why the car was always so loud because she only ever shifted when the revs hit the red line) or "rarely used for short trips" (2km isn't short if you're 95 years old and on foot), and then there's outright fraud.

TallGlass

I'm a little lost here, you purchased a report online that told you in writing that it was CAT D write off in England. Yet you still went ahead and bought the car after been told it was a write off by the report.

I'm sorry, but that is madness. And IMO, your lucky to have gotten anything back, they could have told you to phek off.

Count yourself lucky and don't get a report again and not follow what it says on it. As for asking them is it crashed, they don't give two ****s if it is, they'll say anything to have you buy it.

Wildcard7

TallGlass wrote: »

I'm a little lost here, you purchased a report online that told you in writing that it was CAT D write off in England. Yet you still went ahead and bought the car after been told it was a write off by the report.

I'm sorry, but that is madness. And IMO, your lucky to have gotten anything back, they could have told you to phek off.

Count yourself lucky and don't get a report again and not follow what it says on it. As for asking them is it crashed, they don't give two ****s if it is, they'll say anything to have you buy it.

Yes, that was a bit naive. I think I outlined that in my initial post.

As for your last paragraph: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/enacted/en/print#sec6
They can say what they want, it's a free country. However I'd have assumed that they'd think about what they say if it can get them in prison. If noone pursues this sort of thing because it's normal to be lied to then I'm not surprised they're doing it anyway, though.

TallGlass

Wildcard7 wrote: »

Yes, that was a bit naive. I think I outlined that in my initial post.

As for your last paragraph: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/enacted/en/print#sec6
They can say what they want, it's a free country. However I'd have assumed that they'd think about what they say if it can get them in prison. If noone pursues this sort of thing because it's normal to be lied to then I'm not surprised they're doing it anyway, though.

I'm not saying that, they won't say outright your not getting your money back, you'll be fobbed around for years on end. In your example above, you mentioned, that wasn't an 'independent garage', it would be stuff like that. (on a side note we can barely get people into prison for serious crimes, let alone for selling dodgy cars!).

Crashed cars can be repaired really well, but from the leaking radiator I would have called it a day with that alone.

Tuacathach

as already mentioned, you've got your money back thankfully, leave it be

2012paddy2012

It's buyer be ware at end of day. Their goodwill allowed the matter to be somewhat resolved. Got caught myself years ago .... Solicitor advice ..Forget it..Save your self hassle

ohnonotgmail

Wildcard7 wrote: »

Now let's see if that works (pictures):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/69702693/yaris/IMG-20161223-WA0001.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/69702693/yaris/IMG-20161223-WA0002.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/69702693/yaris/IMG-20161223-WA0003.jpg

can anybody confirm what it is we are actually looking at in those pics? Surely if the chassis was bent it would be more than a cat d write-off?

gandalf

As suggested above if they are a member of an organisation like SIMI http://www.simi.ie/ send a complaint into them detailing what you have said above and end it with something like "I thought a dealer with a SIMI badge was supposed to be reputable" and then leave it at that.

If they aren't then just chalk it up to experience but let anyone you know who is thinking of buying a car to avoid them (obviously don't post it on the internet). Be thankful it only cost you €100, it could have been much worse.

Cordell

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

can anybody confirm what it is we are actually looking at in those pics? Surely if the chassis was bent it would be more than a cat d write-off?

If I'm looking the right way is the subframe, near the firewall, the brake pump is right above the kink. I'm no car engineer, but to me it looks like a car that needs to be scrapped.

mickdw

You agreed to buy a cat d. you got it inspected. you got your money and your old car back.
Walk away and count yourself lucky.
Why you didn't get it inspected before you handed over the cash would be the first question that should be asked.
I also believe the refund is full and final settlement.
To be fair, there are many dealers would would have left you whistling for your money so as I say, learn a lesson and buy wisely the next time.

boardsuser1

This time last year I spotted a Seat Leon 1.9tdi on Dondeal for sale.

Car looked great, I was all up for buying it.

Was going travelling from Cork to Dublin to buy it the next day.

I asked the seller did it have a clean history, he said yes!

I was aware that the car was an English import so I said i'd check the history of it as a precaution.

The report cost me 35e.

It was the best money I ever spent.

The car was a Category D write off in the UK.

When I challenged the seller on this he eventually admitted it.

When I asked about the level of damage he said the bumper was replaced and that was it.

A damaged bumper on a car valued at 8k would hardly be deemed a write off?

Needless to say I didn't proceed with the purchase due to the dishonesty.

Wildcard7

TallGlass wrote: »

(on a side note we can barely get people into prison for serious crimes, let alone for selling dodgy cars!).

That is a good point and one I haven't considered at all before.

PopTarts

Have they put the car back up for sale?

Would be interesting to see if they would now admit to it being damaged previously.

Wildcard7

PopTarts wrote: »

Have they put the car back up for sale?

Would be interesting to see if they would now admit to it being damaged previously.

They haven't taken it down yet, just marked as "sold". I'm curious too what it looks like once it comes back up.

MojoMaker

Put the link up here. I buy crashed repairables and have saved quite a few.

Wildcard7

MojoMaker wrote: »

Put the link up here. I buy crashed repairables and have saved quite a few.

I'm pretty sure that would violate a naming&shaming policy, and if someone approached them about their crashed car they'd know you have this information from me which is not something I want at the moment.

Germancarfan

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

It's buyer be ware at end of day. Their goodwill allowed the matter to be somewhat resolved. Got caught myself years ago .... Solicitor advice ..Forget it..Save your self hassle

Not when it was purchased from a dealer. Presuming they are legit (presuming !!) then sale of goods act applies

Dec

pcardin

Thanks for sharing this experience. Wouldn't want to experience myself a stuff like that. 
But what the heck with that "I'm Swiss, them pesky Eastern Europeans" attitude?! :O Is Eastern Europe a single country now, like 3rd class. not worth much to be specified from which country they are?

Choose your battles OP and leave the organised crime gangs (if they are such people) to the relevant authorities to deal with. If it makes you feel better, go to your local Garda station and tell your story.