Hardware

Johnboy1951

I wish to have this difference adjudicated on.
I have followed correct procedure as far as I can determine, by first appealing to the moderator in question, icdg, and then continuing the conversation with MiCr0. Unfortunately we failed to find common ground, which leaves me posting here for help in resolving this difference.

The issue concerns the locking of a thread and whether there was any real cause for doing so or not.
Did the thread breach any of the guidelines of Boards or laws of the country?
Did it breach the intent of a rule or guideline?
IMO, the answer is no, and I have searched as best I can but found no transgression.

First let me provide some links and quotes that I have received during the discussion so far:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1...l#zza24y1990s9
is about interception of services such as pay-tv.
Quote:
(4) In this section “intercept” in relation to a service means receive, view, listen to, record by any means or acquire the substance or purport of the service or part thereof supplied by a licensee or service provider without the agreement of the licensee or service provider.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=295325
Satellite Forum Rules
Quote:
DON'T Discuss hacking systems.
For the avoidance of doubt: DON'T Discuss any methods that allow access to a pay-television service, other than taking out a legitimate, paid, subscription to the provider of that service.
The thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...#post102260718

There are two points I would like to highlight:

1. There is no reference to re-purposing, hacking or modifying hardware that one owns in any of the references to Boards rules or the Broadcasting Act that I have been supplied to explain the thread being locked.

2. The reason given for locking the thread included ... "The software in the Sky+HD box, is as pointed out above, closed source proprietary software. There is absolutely no way we can allow discussion of hacking the box here."

What I would like:-

A. Clarity around the 'rules' regarding discussion of breaking apart hardware that one owns.

B. With that clarified, the thread to be re-opened for further discussion.

I went out of my way to ensure that anyone reading the thread would be assured that I had no interest in 'intercepting' any Sky channels in an illegal or doubtful manner. Neither had (or have) I any interest in cracking proprietary software.
I was, and am, only interested in (hardware) modification to enable the internal HDD to be used for recording, as originally intended.

If there is to be no discussion of hacking hardware on Boards then that will have widespread impact on a lot of things which are openly discussed at the present time ...... such as how to get into one's laptop to achieve some change in its performance; how to de-lid a CPU to (hopefully) get better thermal transfer; how to re-arrange the inside of an STB so that an internal HDD can be fitted for recordings, how to retrieve parts from unused hardware for reuse in other devices (recycle) and a heck of a lot of other hardware related things that are openly discussed at present. None of those actions are of a morally doubtful or unlawful nature.
It would be a shame to see all those threads locked or deleted.

I am sure the moderators that I have had discussions with can provide details of our communications, but if you require anything from me, I will gladly supply it asap.

Because 'hacking' is sometimes confused with illegal acts like cracking proprietary software, I offer the following link for reference to a more complete explanation of hardware hacking than I could provide myself.
https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1314

My apologies if this has become too long.

I look forward to a definitive statement on whether discussion of hardware hacking is allowed on Boards or not.

Thank you.

Johnboy1951

Is it possible to receive confirmation that this issue is being looked at? Thanks

###

I notice that a couple of the links I posted do not seem to work in my browser so I will attempt to post them again in this post as I cannot now edit the original

The Thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057692742

The IrishStatue Reference
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1990/act/24/section/9/enacted/en/html#zza24y1990s9

Boards.ie: Mark

From what I can see, you were told immediately by a mod not to discuss hacking. The answer that could be given on the thread was provided: "theres no way to use the skybox to record unless you pay."

The charter specifically says not to discuss hacking (it goes on to provide an example, but the baseline is "Don't discuss hacking"). Boards.ie's Terms of Use state that you don't post Material that infringes any patent, trade mark, trade secret, copyright, rights of privacy or publicity, or other proprietary right or intellectual property right of any party.

The mod and CMod have made their decision, and I see no reason as to why this thread should be reopened.

Johnboy1951

Boards.ie: Mark wrote: »

From what I can see, you were told immediately by a mod not to discuss hacking. The answer that could be given on the thread was provided: "theres no way to use the skybox to record unless you pay."

Told by whom? An unknown internet entity?
How does that person know what is and is not possible?

The charter specifically says not to discuss hacking (it goes on to provide an example, but the baseline is "Don't discuss hacking"). Boards.ie's Terms of Use state that you don't post Material that infringes any patent, trade mark, trade secret, copyright, rights of privacy or publicity, or other proprietary right or intellectual property right of any party.

The mod and CMod have made their decision, and I see no reason as to why this thread should be reopened.

Would you please point specifically to which of the Boards.ie terms that is breached by the act of hacking hardware?

Is my error only that I used the term 'hack' and nothing else?

Nothing I have been told so far pertains to hacking hardware that I own, and it appears it is the use of the term that is the problem.

Is this what I am being told?

If so then I can open another thread on the same subject, and provided I do not use the term 'hack' (or 'hacking') that the thread will not be locked?

I had hoped to get clarity from this thread so that I do not come to a moderator's attention again for something similar and receive a warning or ban.

Please clarify, thank you.

Boards.ie: Mark

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Told by whom? An unknown internet entity?
How does that person know what is and is not possible?

Would you please point specifically to which of the Boards.ie terms that is breached by the act of hacking hardware?

Is my error only that I used the term 'hack' and nothing else?

Nothing I have been told so far pertains to hacking hardware that I own, and it appears it is the use of the term that is the problem.

Is this what I am being told?

If so then I can open another thread on the same subject, and provided I do not use the term 'hack' (or 'hacking') that the thread will not be locked?

I had hoped to get clarity from this thread so that I do not come to a moderator's attention again for something similar and receive a warning or ban.

Please clarify, thank you.

You were told that the thread would remain open provided that only your first paragraph ("Is there any way to record an eir sports programme when using an eir/Setanta only card in a Sky+ HD box? There is no Sky subscription") was discussed. If you want to be sure that you stay onside of the mods, I would recommend running future threads on the matter by them and adhering to warnings.

Discussion of hacking is covered in the charter, which makes it off-limits.

That Broadcasting Act that you point to references not possessing equipment that has been modified to enable interception. Interception includes recording without the agreement of the licensee or service provider. This indicates to me that no matter what term you want to use, you're still not allowed discuss it.

Johnboy1951

Boards.ie: Mark wrote: »

You were told that the thread would remain open provided that only your first paragraph ("Is there any way to record an eir sports programme when using an eir/Setanta only card in a Sky+ HD box? There is no Sky subscription") was discussed. If you want to be sure that you stay onside of the mods, I would recommend running future threads on the matter by them and adhering to warnings.

You reckon the mods would appreciate being asked before every post on a hardware subject was posted?
I think not ..... particularly when all is required is a clear statement in this thread whether discussion of breaking apart hardware is off limits or not.

Discussion of hacking is covered in the charter, which makes it off-limits.

Hacking is not defined ........ that is one purpose of this thread ...... does it include hardware or only refer to proprietary software?
Does it include libre software?

Maybe it is only the term itself that is prohibited?

Clarity is needed!

That Broadcasting Act that you point to references not possessing equipment that has been modified to enable interception. Interception includes recording without the agreement of the licensee or service provider. This indicates to me that no matter what term you want to use, you're still not allowed discuss it.

The subject of the thread was recording a service which I have a right to receive. Therefore there is no unlawful interception.

In any case as you have read the thread you have also read that it is possible to record the service via the scart connector!

Now, can you please clarify the situation?

Is discussion of hardware hacking prohibited or not under the Boards.ie charter?
A simple yes or a no will suffice, thank you.

Johnboy1951

I had hoped that the admins might have clarified the situation before now (a week since I last posted).

Any indication when a response about this might be available?

Hacking is not defined ........ that is one purpose of this thread ...... does it include hardware or only refer to proprietary software?
Does it include libre software?

Maybe it is only the term itself that is prohibited?

Clarity is needed!

Is discussion of hardware hacking prohibited or not under the Boards.ie charter?

Johnboy1951

My last post wondering if this issue is getting attention does not seem to have been approved as it has not appeared in the thread.

Can someone attend to this issue please?

There has been no response since 26th Jan.

Thank you.

Boards.ie: Mark

Hi Johnboy,

Yes, you are entitled to receive the service, but you're not entitled to record it. It was mentioned in the thread that recording is restricted to those with a subscription - Is this correct? Being able to record via Scart doesn't have any bearing here - it is a feature/bug depending on who you ask.

Topics that you cannot discuss on Boards are covered in the Terms of Use and FAQs. However, certain forums add to this via the charter. Can "hacking" be discussed on Boards - if it doesn't fall contrary to the above. Can it be discussed on the Satellite forum - no.

You enquired if you could modify (hack) the hardware to enable recording; you were warned in the very first response that you couldn't discuss that there. Whether you use that specific term or not, your end goal is the same and the end result in each case will be a locked thread.

Johnboy1951

Boards.ie: Mark wrote: »

Hi Johnboy,

Yes, you are entitled to receive the service, but you're not entitled to record it. It was mentioned in the thread that recording is restricted to those with a subscription - Is this correct? Being able to record via Scart doesn't have any bearing here - it is a feature/bug depending on who you ask.

Topics that you cannot discuss on Boards are covered in the Terms of Use and FAQs. However, certain forums add to this via the charter. Can "hacking" be discussed on Boards - if it doesn't fall contrary to the above. Can it be discussed on the Satellite forum - no.

You enquired if you could modify (hack) the hardware to enable recording; you were warned in the very first response that you couldn't discuss that there. Whether you use that specific term or not, your end goal is the same and the end result in each case will be a locked thread.

So the situation as I understand from your post is this:-

Hardware hacking is not contrary to Boards.ie terms or rules and as such can be discussed.

Yet it cannot be discussed on the Satellite forum, because a mod says so.
There is no Satellite rule prohibiting it, so this decision is new, and is not based on any existing rule.

Furthermore, I did not start that thread in the Satellite forum.
It was the mod who moved it to there, and then locked it, based on some idea that the hardware discussion was about software!

Failing any term or rule prohibiting the discussion (even on the Satellite forum) I fail to know on what basis the thread remains locked.

icdg wrote:

The software in the Sky+HD box, is as pointed out above, closed source proprietary software. There is absolutely no way we can allow discussion of hacking the box here.

It would appear that icdg is confused between hardware and software. His confusion is no reason the thread should remain locked.

Boards.ie: Mark

The Boards.ie Terms of Use and FAQ, along with each forum's individual charter will answer any questions that you have regarding topics that cannot be discussed. The section regarding Discretion of the Moderator is particularly applicable here. If you have a suggestion for a review of a forum's charter, I would advise contacting the mods of the forum.

The moderator's closing post referring to software has no bearing on whether or not the thread should have been locked or not. It was made clear that hacking should not be discussed, yet it was. Therefore the moderator was left with no choice but to lock it.

It doesn't seem like discussing this further will lead to any breakthrough, so I'm going to lock this here.