2nd dairy farm

farmert7

Hi, I curious does anyone have figures on a taking a second dairy farm. It seams to be getting popular. We milk 140 cows on our home farm. The accountant did some figures for us and between the lot the aim he said people have is the value of cows when they exit the contract in most cases 15 years. I am just putting the question out there has anyone done figures ? and is it really worth the hassle ?

freedominacup

farmert7 wrote: »

Hi, I curious does anyone have figures on a taking a second dairy farm. It seams to be getting popular. We milk 140 cows on our home farm. The accountant did some figures for us and between the lot the aim he said people have is the value of cows when they exit the contract in most cases 15 years. I am just putting the question out there has anyone done figures ? and is it really worth the hassle ?

That seems like a poor return. How close to the top are your figures on the home farm? You'd be better off short term squeezing the max from your base before adding a second set of headaches.

Mooooo

farmert7 wrote: »

Hi, I curious does anyone have figures on a taking a second dairy farm. It seams to be getting popular. We milk 140 cows on our home farm. The accountant did some figures for us and between the lot the aim he said people have is the value of cows when they exit the contract in most cases 15 years. I am just putting the question out there has anyone done figures ? and is it really worth the hassle ?

Depends on the situation I guess, I know thats a broad answer but the few of know at it down here it has been mainly when a son or two in some cases has come on the scene with the father still young enough or looking t9 keep going himself. Obviously they all must take a living from it but would it be as viable with staff as opposed to family maybe so but things would want to be right I guess. Work the calculator and the right people involved would determine if viable

GrasstoMilk

From Sean o donnels paper today at IGA conference.
Sean is starting on a 40ha second block in '18
Jumping from 120 cows to 230cows
Just a parlour and grazing infastructure being built on new block. Wintering facilities being built in his own yard

kowtow

Mooooo wrote: »

Depends on the situation I guess, I know thats a broad answer but the few of know at it down here it has been mainly when a son or two in some cases has come on the scene with the father still young enough or looking t9 keep going himself. Obviously they all must take a living from it but would it be as viable with staff as opposed to family maybe so but things would want to be right I guess. Work the calculator and the right people involved would determine if viable

Presumably the implication is that the second farm would have to be capable of sustaining it's own purchase (or rental) with only working capital, machinery, and some stock provided by the "home" operation?

Icelandicseige

If it's to use your Replacements without giving them away. Why not look into a partnership with someone thats looking to enter dairying you supply the stock while other supplys land and maybe labour could be split?!?

Timmaay

farmert7 wrote: »

Hi, I curious does anyone have figures on a taking a second dairy farm. It seams to be getting popular. We milk 140 cows on our home farm. The accountant did some figures for us and between the lot the aim he said people have is the value of cows when they exit the contract in most cases 15 years. I am just putting the question out there has anyone done figures ? and is it really worth the hassle ?

What does the current 140cows need to support? In terms of salaries etc, when you say we who do you mean, a father and son, or 2 brothers etc? How much investment is needed for the 2nd farm, do yous have a rake load of excess heifers ready to go who you will otherwise be taking market value of 1200e etc?, would there be sheds etc with it? If all you need is a parlour/grazing infrastructure and the herd can be built up from within yourown herd, and one of the 2 people on the current farm will be largely running the show (without compromising the current home farm), then it would be a very attractive proposition, however if you have to be going out and starting from scratch with most the above, alongside more labour to run it, and you think it will take your eye off the ball on the home farm then it would be a hell of a lot less attractive.

And finally, your very last word, hassle! What motivations do yous have for setting up a 2nd farm?? Earn more money? Ego trip ha? If the only thing you can see outa it all is possible "hassle" with no real advantages then why would you bother?

Mooooo

kowtow wrote: »

Presumably the implication is that the second farm would have to be capable of sustaining it's own purchase (or rental) with only working capital, machinery, and some stock provided by the "home" operation?

Don't know the situations well enough but that's what one would assume. Assume a certain amount of labour initially also. One case it's 2 farms rented another case it was a farm bought but only speculating as to how they do it. One common denominator is they are both good operators and hard workers,.

freedominacup

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

From Sean o donnels paper today at IGA conference.
Sean is starting on a 40ha second block in '18
Jumping from 120 cows to 230cows
Just a parlour and grazing infastructure being built on new block. Wintering facilities being built in his own yard

Paper never refused ink. I know a man who did it a couple of years ago. Went from 80 to 180. Put just a parlour and yard in an inherited block. Extended winter facilities on home block.

He had two young lads who were very interested. They've had their fill of it now. Completely turned off in their mid to late teens. No battle plan lasts after the first shot is fired.

alps

Care....50%fail....

And by fail, I mean cease....not necessarily broke....just didn't work out...

GrasstoMilk

freedominacup wrote: »

Paper never refused ink. I know a man who did it a couple of years ago. Went from 80 to 180. Put just a parlour and yard in an inherited block. Extended winter facilities on home block.

He had two young lads who were very interested. They've had their fill of it now. Completely turned off in their mid to late teens. No battle plan lasts after the first shot is fired.

It's a heck of a lot better than having no plan at all which most lads expanding don't have unless they want money off the bank to go building.

He did a very in depth investigation of the 4 systems and decided what he was going to do himself.

As most lads says look back in 5 years and if it went exactly the way you planned your very lucky

Keepgrowing

farmert7 wrote: »

Hi, I curious does anyone have figures on a taking a second dairy farm. It seams to be getting popular. We milk 140 cows on our home farm. The accountant did some figures for us and between the lot the aim he said people have is the value of cows when they exit the contract in most cases 15 years. I am just putting the question out there has anyone done figures ? and is it really worth the hassle ?

No other use of land will beat the return from milking cows off that land on a dairy farm.

Do you need parlour, slurry, cubicles, grazing infrastructure and cows?

Patrick Gowing presented a very interesting on set up costs and approach. Sean O Donnell also had conducted an very detailed study of same and he presented it yesterday.

Bass Reeves

freedominacup wrote: »

Paper never refused ink. I know a man who did it a couple of years ago. Went from 80 to 180. Put just a parlour and yard in an inherited block. Extended winter facilities on home block.

He had two young lads who were very interested. They've had their fill of it now. Completely turned off in their mid to late teens. No battle plan lasts after the first shot is fired.

If they were only that age it was stupid. Young lads need to have time to grow up sow a bit of oats. Taking on a farm like that and telling young lads that it will be worth it in 10-15 years time is no good.I have seen cases like that young lad get to be a 40 year o!d with no partner/ spouse and is afraid of a relationship in case she takes it all.

If you are starting a second operation and intend to employ labour to run it you need to be a serious manager as opposed to a farmer. It 's alot more than having half the rep!acements ready to go. Not sure if I would keep pushing my own farm either after you get to 80-90% of possible max production in any business the other 10-20% is often not as profitable. This is often the milk that is costing you money in a downturn or when fodder and ration is expensive. This is often the grass that drains the long term fertility of land and causes issues with tracec elements.

TBH there comes a time when you need to know when you have enough. Also I think a lot of dairy farmers should consider investment outside the farm or even ancillary investment on the farm. How many farms have old houses on outside farms that could be developed for sub 100k and rented. How many live in area's where there is run down property that can be bought cheap and rented. Most houses if in good nick will?l yield 100+/week for seen 2 bed properties. There are as well commercial property options. Old stone buildings that could be turned into lock up for smaller trade/ business people, office accommodation for small business etc etc. Might be much easier and more profitable.

boggerman1

Its hard enough to manage one dairy farm without adding a 2nd headache to the system.not against ambition but when is enough.at the end of the day no matter how much u grab hold off we will all end up with a 6/4 in the ground or on the mantlepiece in an urn.maybe if all of us did what we have to the best of our ability we would be better off.u need to have a life outside of 24/7 cows and more cows

Icelandicseige

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If they were only that age it was stupid. Young lads need to have time to grow up sow a bit of oats. Taking on a farm like that and telling young lads that it will be worth it in 10-15 years time is no good.I have seen cases like that young lad get to be a 40 year o!d with no partner/ spouse and is afraid of a relationship in case she takes it all.

If you are starting a second operation and intend to employ labour to run it you need to be a serious manager as opposed to a farmer. It 's alot more than having half the rep!acements ready to go. Not sure if I would keep pushing my own farm either after you get to 80-90% of possible max production in any business the other 10-20% is often not as profitable. This is often the milk that is costing you money in a downturn or when fodder and ration is expensive. This is often the grass that drains the long term fertility of land and causes issues with tracec elements.

TBH there comes a time when you need to know when you have enough. Also I think a lot of dairy farmers should consider investment outside the farm or even ancillary investment on the farm. How many farms have old houses on outside farms that could be developed for sub 100k and rented. How many live in area's where there is run down property that can be bought cheap and rented. Most houses if in good nick will?l yield 100+/week for seen 2 bed properties. There are as well commercial property options. Old stone buildings that could be turned into lock up for smaller trade/ business people, office accommodation for small business etc etc. Might be much easier and more profitable.

It think your getting carried away there calling people stupid. I have an idea of this said operation and if I'm right one had aspirations to travel to NZ to work on dairy farm so I don't think all is lost there. Just a minor bump.
I agree with you on the investing in property.

What I want to know is with all this talk of dairy farmers investing in building and setting up new business. They must be making some fecking profit.!

Bass Reeves

Icelandicseige wrote: »

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It think your getting carried away there calling people stupid. I have an idea of this said operation and if I'm right one had aspirations to travel to NZ to work on dairy farm so I don't think all is lost there. Just a minor bump.
I agree with you on the investing in property.

What I want to know is with all this talk of dairy farmers investing in building and setting up new business. They must be making some fecking profit.!

I did not them stupid I said that the idea of taking on a second d farm for young lads in there teens and committing them to such a project when they are that age is stupid. Teenagers are like the wind they blow this way and that way especially from 14-18 after that they may start to get an idea of what they want to do. Fall out of first year in college is up on 20%. The idea of committing them to an 2-300k project is crazy IMO. What seems like can good idea at 16 changes when the hormone of 17 and 18 arrive. I managed a group of young lads from U 8's to minor in GAA. Fall off from U16 to Minorcas horrific up on 40%. Committment of some of them changed completely.

All investment is leavered by borrowing. Some projects are self financing. If you do not have to apply for planning doing up old houses or buildings into rentals if you own them already is self financing especially if you can log it as commercial borrowing or add it to farm borrowing is self finnancing. 150k borrowed over 20 years would do up an 2-3 old small houses 2 up/ 2 down to a fairly good !Odern standard. Rental would cover repayments.

freedominacup

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

It's a heck of a lot better than having no plan at all which most lads expanding don't have unless they want money off the bank to go building.

He did a very in depth investigation of the 4 systems and decided what he was going to do himself.

As most lads says look back in 5 years and if it went exactly the way you planned your very lucky

His biggest problem is not enough scale rather than too much. If the two farms are close enough to be managed by one man presumably they're close enough to bring feed from one to the other.

If he was going from 200 to 400 it would be a much more viable plan imo. The second unit would be stand alone and he would be in a position where he would be able to manage both units. On this plan he's going to have to do too much work and not enough managing while still being dragged between two units. There's a big danger of him literally falling between two stools. This is what is happening to the guy I referenced. Working silly hours and still not being able to make sure both yards are running at close to optimum. This costing money and making it harder to finance his expansion.

kevthegaff

Auld lad set up a second unit 40 yrs ago, began well but eye off the ball in later years. Still paid for itself!

jaymla627

freedominacup wrote: »

His biggest problem is not enough scale rather than too much. If the two farms are close enough to be managed by one man presumably they're close enough to bring feed from one to the other.

If he was going from 200 to 400 it would be a much more viable plan imo. The second unit would be stand alone and he would be in a position where he would be able to manage both units. On this plan he's going to have to do too much work and not enough managing while still being dragged between two units. There's a big danger of him literally falling between two stools. This is what is happening to the guy I referenced. Working silly hours and still not being able to make sure both yards are running at close to optimum. This costing money and making it harder to finance his expansion.

The funniest thing about the one slide i seen was 210k was all the capitial required to start up the second unit, seemed to be protrayed a parlour was all that was needed.....
No mention of extra cubicles/calf accommendation/more imported feed/massively increased replacement heifer costs, presentations where only half the story is being told and lots of crucial financial figures are being left out are like the much vaunted profit monitor, pretty useless ....

kowtow

freedominacup wrote: »

His biggest problem is not enough scale rather than too much. If the two farms are close enough to be managed by one man presumably they're close enough to bring feed from one to the other.

If he was going from 200 to 400 it would be a much more viable plan imo. The second unit would be stand alone and he would be in a position where he would be able to manage both units. On this plan he's going to have to do too much work and not enough managing while still being dragged between two units. There's a big danger of him literally falling between two stools. This is what is happening to the guy I referenced. Working silly hours and still not being able to make sure both yards are running at close to optimum. This costing money and making it harder to finance his expansion.

Bang on. People often assume that the advantages of scale can be got simply by increasing size - this is not true at all. Some businesses and systems are inherently more scale-able than others.

What you are looking for is a business which, upon expansion, will rapidly decrease the proportion of fixed costs to sales (costs, for the avoidance of doubt - include labour) As you rightly point out labour is almost certainly the dominating factor in this case.

Incidentally this same misunderstanding of scale is often behind the sometimes unwarranted criticism of larger intensive and indoor herds - if you accept that labour is your big fixed cost, then litres per labour unit soon becomes a key measure.

The indoor zero-grazed herd is about as scale-able a dairy setup as can be imagined, which is not to say that it is the most profitable or the most desirable - particularly where there is no local liquid market.

GrasstoMilk

freedominacup wrote: »

His biggest problem is not enough scale rather than too much. If the two farms are close enough to be managed by one man presumably they're close enough to bring feed from one to the other.

If he was going from 200 to 400 it would be a much more viable plan imo. The second unit would be stand alone and he would be in a position where he would be able to manage both units. On this plan he's going to have to do too much work and not enough managing while still being dragged between two units. There's a big danger of him literally falling between two stools. This is what is happening to the guy I referenced. Working silly hours and still not being able to make sure both yards are running at close to optimum. This costing money and making it harder to finance his expansion.

He won't be running second farm. Contract milking couple will be doing day to day running. He'll over see the whole thing

Keepgrowing

jaymla627 wrote: »

The funniest thing about the one slide i seen was 210k was all the capitial required to start up the second unit, seemed to be protrayed a parlour was all that was needed.....
No mention of extra cubicles/calf accommendation/more imported feed/massively increased replacement heifer costs, presentations where only half the story is being told and lots of crucial financial figures are being left out are like the much vaunted profit monitor, pretty useless ....

How come you only saw one slide? He had quite a few

freedominacup

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

He won't be running second farm. Contract milking couple will be doing day to day running. He'll over see the whole thing

Has he got this "contract couple" lined up? Labour costs projected at mid 40k from what i can see on your link? The one thing I can guarantee you is this couple are going to have a very frugal lifestyle and no kids on that sort of wage. I can't see a long queue forming on the morning they're holding interviews.

kevthegaff

freedominacup wrote:

Has he got this "contract couple" lined up? Labour costs projected at mid 40k from what i can see on your link? The one thing I can guarantee you is this couple are going to have a very frugal lifestyle and no kids on that sort of wage. I can't see a long queue forming on the morning they're holding interviews.

Labour is the big hiccup, what about time off for the couple and relief milker.

jaymla627

kevthegaff wrote: »

Labour is the big hiccup, what about time off for the couple and relief milker.

In these type of arrangements usually the contract milkers if they want milkings off they have to pay for it out of their pockets, seen a intresting piece in agriland where they also have to do 20% of milkings on home farm also so assuming cows are dry for most of dec/jan the couple still have to do in our around 720 milkings a year......

kerry cow

Good ag adviser told me once if you can't milk 250 plus cows on 2nd herd then it's not worth considering .
If your not in the top 10% you'd be better off putting you energy there as it's direct profit in the bank .
It took me years to figure it but alas he is right .

kowtow

The interesting implication of the posts above is that it is possible - if the figures are correct - to establish a dairy farm on rented ground (or where payments must be made to acquire land) which generates a working wage sizeable enough at least to pay a couple to contract milk.

Or am I missing something?

kevthegaff

kowtow wrote:

The interesting implication of the posts above is that it is possible - if the figures are correct - to establish a dairy farm on rented ground (or where payments must be made to acquire land) which generates a working wage sizeable enough at least to pay a couple to contract milk.

kowtow wrote:

Or am I missing something?

All dependant on price..

Bass Reeves

freedominacup wrote: »

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

He won't be running second farm. Contract milking couple will be doing day to day running. He'll over see the whole thing

Has he got this "contract couple" lined up? Labour costs projected at mid 40k from what i can see on your link? The one thing I can guarantee you is this couple are going to have a very frugal lifestyle and no kids on that sort of wage. I can't see a long queue forming on the morning they're holding interviews.

He is planning on an eastern European couple. 40k a bit with the minimum wage. A van and they sort there own car. Free accommodation after ,6-8 months unless they are complete idiot's they will have given him 2 weeks notice and one will be working with Paddy the plaster's and the other half will be cleaning .houses for cash. Even if they were a driven couple and were getting a 20-30% bonus they be off there head. 40K to milk 200 cows 7 days/ week for40+ weeks, I presume calf them down dry them off and go back to Siberia or Nigeria for Christmas.

Labour will be the huge issue with milkingnin Irelsnd. Minimum wage is above 9/hour, daughter is getting 9.50 working in a bookie's going to college and will be on 10.5 next summer as a deputy manager and that is a college job.FFS will some make me a cupnod coffee.

Keepgrowing

Op I run a second unit. I'm not going to go into figures here but if you need more info feel free to visit.

Yes labour is an issue and it's only starting. One of the problems at farm lev is that most farmers were never actually employees in another business so can't grasp exactly how one should treat an employee.

We need to encourage employees to buy into what we're tying to achieve. The key to this is communication. That's grand if the employee is receptive and switched on. Some work great when given responsibility but some don't and the skill is to recognise that.

Some of the terms we use are in my opinion really offensive i.e. Labourer, workman and my all time hated phrase 2IC. They are key people and should be treated as such.

The whole service industry is made up of unskilled staff, this doesn't mean that they're not trained. If you ask any hotelier, supermarket manager or restaurant owner how they manage they'll tell you it's with plenty of part timers.

It's not always money that makes people tick, it's really important but a bit of paid time off on top of holidays goes a long way. We give our lads the odd long weekend off, that would be on Thurs am tell him when he goes home for lunch I'll see you Monday. That is greatly appreciated. It's the simple things that don't actually cost anything. People need to become more generous with things that cost nothing.

Some on this thread have gone down the road of commenting on a paper delivered at the Irish Grassland Association conference and judging by the comments they clearly didn't attend. It's a pity really as this guy had extensive study done on te area of second units.

He examined zgrazing, robots, OAD milking and second parlour TAD.

We were lucky in that he is actually putting his money where his mouth is and developing a second unit. His paper contains the details as to why he made his decision.

Just for clarity the husband and wife team have only to milk TAD. All calving etc will take place on his home farm. They will also do some relief milking at the home farm. The total cows on the 2 units will be c250 so they'll hardly be killed milking half or 60% of that number.

kevthegaff

What's 2IC? Good post KG tho

Keepgrowing

kevthegaff wrote: »

What's 2IC? Good post KG tho

Second in charge i.e. gofor

mahoney_j

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Op I run a second unit. I'm not going to go into figures here but if you need more info feel free to visit.

Yes labour is an issue and it's only starting. One of the problems at farm lev is that most farmers were never actually employees in another business so can't grasp exactly how one should treat an employee.

We need to encourage employees to buy into what we're tying to achieve. The key to this is communication. That's grand if the employee is receptive and switched on. Some work great when given responsibility but some don't and the skill is to recognise that.

Some of the terms we use are in my opinion really offensive i.e. Labourer, workman and my all time hated phrase 2IC. They are key people and should be treated as such.

The whole service industry is made up of unskilled staff, this doesn't mean that they're not trained. If you ask any hotelier, supermarket manager or restaurant owner how they manage they'll tell you it's with plenty of part timers.

It's not always money that makes people tick, it's really important but a bit of paid time off on top of holidays goes a long way. We give our lads the odd long weekend off, that would be on Thurs am tell him when he goes home for lunch I'll see you Monday. That is greatly appreciated. It's the simple things that don't actually cost anything. People need to become more generous with things that cost nothing.

Some on this thread have gone down the road of commenting on a paper delivered at the Irish Grassland Association conference and judging by the comments they clearly didn't attend. It's a pity really as this guy had extensive study done on te area of second units.

He examined zgrazing, robots, OAD milking and second parlour TAD.

We were lucky in that he is actually putting his money where his mouth is and developing a second unit. His paper contains the details as to why he made his decision.

Just for clarity the husband and wife team have only to milk TAD. All calving etc will take place on his home farm. They will also do some relief milking at the home farm. The total cows on the 2 units will be c250 so they'll hardly be killed milking half or 60% of that number.

Belter of a post ,

RightTurnClyde

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Op I run a second unit. I'm not going to go into figures here but if you need more info feel free to visit.

Yes labour is an issue and it's only starting. One of the problems at farm lev is that most farmers were never actually employees in another business so can't grasp exactly how one should treat an employee.

We need to encourage employees to buy into what we're tying to achieve. The key to this is communication. That's grand if the employee is receptive and switched on. Some work great when given responsibility but some don't and the skill is to recognise that.

Some of the terms we use are in my opinion really offensive i.e. Labourer, workman and my all time hated phrase 2IC. They are key people and should be treated as such.

The whole service industry is made up of unskilled staff, this doesn't mean that they're not trained. If you ask any hotelier, supermarket manager or restaurant owner how they manage they'll tell you it's with plenty of part timers.

It's not always money that makes people tick, it's really important but a bit of paid time off on top of holidays goes a long way. We give our lads the odd long weekend off, that would be on Thurs am tell him when he goes home for lunch I'll see you Monday. That is greatly appreciated. It's the simple things that don't actually cost anything. People need to become more generous with things that cost nothing.

Some on this thread have gone down the road of commenting on a paper delivered at the Irish Grassland Association conference and judging by the comments they clearly didn't attend. It's a pity really as this guy had extensive study done on te area of second units.

He examined zgrazing, robots, OAD milking and second parlour TAD.

We were lucky in that he is actually putting his money where his mouth is and developing a second unit. His paper contains the details as to why he made his decision.

Just for clarity the husband and wife team have only to milk TAD. All calving etc will take place on his home farm. They will also do some relief milking at the home farm. The total cows on the 2 units will be c250 so they'll hardly be killed milking half or 60% of that number.

Wasnt at meeting and only going off what I see here. So these are questions not criticisms
But going back to scale, can a salary of 40k be justified (afforded) from 150 cows on leased ground
If he's calving all the cows at home, is there more wages going out there aswell.
Would 40k+parlour development costs+roadways+fencing, not pay for a 17year old idiot up on a tractor and ZGer for 2 hours a day??

Just a general question aswell
farmer A leases farm from farmer B, and farmer B is no longer farming. Farmer A spends on capital work on leased farm (parlour, roadways, etc). Is farmer A allowed to claim the unregistered VAT on this work. (Work done on land that's not his) Iykwim, or is partnerships the way around this?

Buford T. Justice XIX

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Wasnt at meeting and only going off what I see here. So these are questions not criticisms
But going back to scale, can a salary of 40k be justified (afforded) from 150 cows on leased ground
If he's calving all the cows at home, is there more wages going out there aswell.
Would 40k+parlour development costs+roadways+fencing, not pay for a 17year old idiot up on a tractor and ZGer for 2 hours a day??

Just a general question aswell
farmer A leases farm from farmer B, and farmer B is no longer farming. Farmer A spends on capital work on leased farm (parlour, roadways, etc). Is farmer A allowed to claim the unregistered VAT on this work. (Work done on land that's not his) Iykwim, or is partnerships the way around this?

The quote from the conference was that ZG is the easiest to scale up with but has the lowest profit of the 4 options he looked at.

jaymla627

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Wasnt at meeting and only going off what I see here. So these are questions not criticisms
But going back to scale, can a salary of 40k be justified (afforded) from 150 cows on leased ground
If he's calving all the cows at home, is there more wages going out there aswell.
Would 40k+parlour development costs+roadways+fencing, not pay for a 17year old idiot up on a tractor and ZGer for 2 hours a day??

Just a general question aswell
farmer A leases farm from farmer B, and farmer B is no longer farming. Farmer A spends on capital work on leased farm (parlour, roadways, etc). Is farmer A allowed to claim the unregistered VAT on this work. (Work done on land that's not his) Iykwim, or is partnerships the way around this?

Id go a step further and sound out local contractors about the job, say your zero-grazer their tractor/labour, 50 euro a hour would probably get you your pick of realiable guys id known my contractor would jump at the chance of guaranteed work like above.....
Cant see how when everything is fully accounted plus the ballache of maintaining two parlours/grazing platforms that the zero-grazing option when distance between two farms is sub 4 miles isnt coming out on top

Mooooo

Not having done it but the way I'd see it is its as much about the system as opposed to where the cows physically are. If your going bringing in feed be it zerograzing or bales or what ever you'll need facilities, feed face slurry storage over and above winter amounts diesel machinery.etc to do it as well added issues of cows on concrete. Having the cows on a second block means your replacing the cost of bringing in feed with roadway/ parlour infrastructure. Neither way is wrong I guess but whatever one is more comfortable with. Either way there is risk. Could be argued if one has a higher yielding cow bringing feed is the way to go as they may respond better to different options whereas with lower yielding it may be as well to bring them to the grass. Also totally dependant in where one is as well. You may get a kitted out farm in some parts of the country for a price per acre that in parts of Cork would only get you marginal ground with little infrastructure.

Bass Reeves

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Op I run a second unit. I'm not going to go into figures here but if you need more info feel free to visit.

Yes labour is an issue and it's only starting. One of the problems at farm lev is that most farmers were never actually employees in another business so can't grasp exactly how one should treat an employee.

We need to encourage employees to buy into what we're tying to achieve. The key to this is communication. That's grand if the employee is receptive and switched on. Some work great when given responsibility but some don't and the skill is to recognise that.

Some of the terms we use are in my opinion really offensive i.e. Labourer, workman and my all time hated phrase 2IC. They are key people and should be treated as such.

The whole service industry is made up of unskilled staff, this doesn't mean that they're not trained. If you ask any hotelier, supermarket manager or restaurant owner how they manage they'll tell you it's with plenty of part timers.

It's not always money that makes people tick, it's really important but a bit of paid time off on top of holidays goes a long way. We give our lads the odd long weekend off, that would be on Thurs am tell him when he goes home for lunch I'll see you Monday. That is greatly appreciated. It's the simple things that don't actually cost anything. People need to become more generous with things that cost nothing.

Some on this thread have gone down the road of commenting on a paper delivered at the Irish Grassland Association conference and judging by the comments they clearly didn't attend. It's a pity really as this guy had extensive study done on te area of second units.

He examined zgrazing, robots, OAD milking and second parlour TAD.

We were lucky in that he is actually putting his money where his mouth is and developing a second unit. His paper contains the details as to why he made his decision.

Just for clarity the husband and wife team have only to milk TAD. All calving etc will take place on his home farm. They will also do some relief milking at the home farm. The total cows on the 2 units will be c250 so they'll hardly be killed milking half or 60% of that number.

I did not attend or did not see the figures. However as you pointed out early on this post labour will be the key issue on where second units fall down. In the case presented Irish grasslands it seems it is more a 1.5 set up rather than a separate second unit.

It is also very well about talking to get employee's to buy inbto what the farmer intends to achieve but in reality it is still the farmers that will receive any advantage accruing not the employee. All that is expected of any employee is an honest days work for the pay they receive. 40k might sound good but it still will not stack up IMO. Assuming employers PRSi of 8.5% it leaves about 38.5k to cover wages holidays and bank holidays . Taking B/H and annual leave it gives the average employee 30 days off in the year.

The reason these magical couple's are going to be targeted by these enterprises is to get around the time off requirements form work and weekly breaks. My comment about Siberia and Nigeria is that I think turn over will be huge with eastern European's as they are are au fait with Ireland now. Some relief milking's at the home farm could turn out to be an expectation of Saturday evening and Sunday on the home farm.

The real fall down is on the wage Milking is a split shift operation if that is all that is expected. It is where 2nd operations fall down. In reality in this situation from your post I assume that the home operation will do all caalving etc and all slurry and fertlizer will be contracted. However there is an assumption of labour being available at sub 10/ hour by a lot of these 2 be operations. My own opinion looking at the present labour market is that semi skilled labour is at about 15/hour and will be at 16-20/ hour in 2-3 years time if economy keeps climbing. The reason for this is that the building industry has still not started to build houses at present. This area has always competed with farming over the last 20 years. This will also impact on contracting charges. At present contracting charges are running at or near cost in most cases so there is little ability to consume that within present cost system.

The one thing about Eastern European labour is there ability to transfer skillsets. 4 years ago I had a Polish tiler doing a job, he was top class I was surprised to find he was a trained mechanic not a tiler by trade. Most are moving up the food chain very fast. There work ethic is excellent in general. It will be relatively easy to employ these couple's, the issue will be retaining them for longer than 6 months as they become accustomed to the Irish system.

Power point presentation are great they make everything look so easy. Where they fall down is in the implementation. Looking at 2 dairy operations last year might have been the year to strike rents were cheaper than they will be this year and you would have setup at lower cost and would have a lifting milk price and a chance that it will be 4-5 years before next trough. If everything was set up this year might be an option but 2018 may well be too late. Opportunity and danger are the same word in Chinese for a reason

jaymla627

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I did not attend or did not see the figures. However as you pointed out early on this post labour will be the key issue on where second units fall down. In the case presented Irish grasslands it seems it is more a 1.5 set up rather than a separate second unit.

It is also very well about talking to get employee's to buy inbto what the farmer intends to achieve but in reality it is still the farmers that will receive any advantage accruing not the employee. All that is expected of any employee is an honest days work for the pay they receive. 40k might sound good but it still will not stack up IMO. Assuming employers PRSi of 8.5% it leaves about 38.5k to cover wages holidays and bank holidays . Taking B/H and annual leave it gives the average employee 30 days off in the year.

The reason these magical couple's are going to be targeted by these enterprises is to get around the time off requirements form work and weekly breaks. My comment about Siberia and Nigeria is that I think turn over will be huge with eastern European's as they are are au fait with Ireland now. Some relief milking's at the home farm could turn out to be an expectation of Saturday evening and Sunday on the home farm.

The real fall down is on the wage Milking is a split shift operation if that is all that is expected. It is where 2nd operations fall down. In reality in this situation from your post I assume that the home operation will do all caalving etc and all slurry and fertlizer will be contracted. However there is an assumption of labour being available at sub 10/ hour by a lot of these 2 be operations. My own opinion looking at the present labour market is that semi skilled labour is at about 15/hour and will be at 16-20/ hour in 2-3 years time if economy keeps climbing. The reason for this is that the building industry has still not started to build houses at present. This area has always competed with farming over the last 20 years. This will also impact on contracting charges. At present contracting charges are running at or near cost in most cases so there is little ability to consume that within present cost system.

The one thing about Eastern European labour is there ability to transfer skillsets. 4 years ago I had a Polish tiler doing a job, he was top class I was surprised to find he was a trained mechanic not a tiler by trade. Most are moving up the food chain very fast. There work ethic is excellent in general. It will be relatively easy to employ these couple's, the issue will be retaining them for longer than 6 months as they become accustomed to the Irish system.

Power point presentation are great they make everything look so easy. Where they fall down is in the implementation. Looking at 2 dairy operations last year might have been the year to strike rents were cheaper than they will be this year and you would have setup at lower cost and would have a lifting milk price and a chance that it will be 4-5 years before next trough. If everything was set up this year might be an option but 2018 may well be too late. Opportunity and danger are the same word in Chinese for a reason

40k plus a good 3 bed house on site our a short distance away would be the minimum needed to get a couple like above to stay put and work away happily for a few years, it would be a major benefit in kind of the job and the 40k wage suddenly becomes alot more attractive when the couple arent having to shell out 6-8 k yearly for a rented house, also means their less likely to up sticks andd simply not turn up out of the blue some morning, its pretty widespread over in england on dairy farms for poles to simply head off on holidays for a week and never to be seen our heard from again

rangler1

jaymla627 wrote: »

40k plus a good 3 bed house on site our a short distance away would be the minimum needed to get a couple like above to stay put and work away happily for a few years, it would be a major benefit in kind of the job and the 40k wage suddenly becomes alot more attractive when the couple arent having to shell out 6-8 k yearly for a rented house, also means their less likely to up sticks andd simply not turn up out of the blue some morning, its pretty widespread over in england on dairy farms for poles to simply head off on holidays for a week and never to be seen our heard from again

Are you expecting two to work for €40k..would they be allowed time off at the same time. Sounds a bit rough to me

Bass Reeves

rangler1 wrote: »

jaymla627 wrote: »

40k plus a good 3 bed house on site our a short distance away would be the minimum needed to get a couple like above to stay put and work away happily for a few years, it would be a major benefit in kind of the job and the 40k wage suddenly becomes alot more attractive when the couple arent having to shell out 6-8 k yearly for a rented house, also means their less likely to up sticks andd simply not turn up out of the blue some morning, its pretty widespread over in england on dairy farms for poles to simply head off on holidays for a week and never to be seen our heard from again

Are you expecting two to work for €40k..would they be allowed time off at the same time. Sounds a bit rough to me

Like I posted earlier the couple theory is to get around the working time act. I imagine all holidays will be schedule for the non milking period. There are other flaws in the system. The thing about power point presentations and farmers going to them is you would need the presentationbefore go for !Inch chat about and then sit down in a workshop type sitting to go through it again

I really think most are not making realistic assumptions about labour availability and costs. What about the farmers time spend on management of the unit and will be need to replace labour on the home farm. Will the second farm without any buildings be capable of carrying milking cows from February to November or will a standoff area be required. How will the calving down of 100+ extra cows and management of there calves impact on the labour costs on home farm. What distance apart were both farms and how was extra winter feed ( silage etc procured) What was the proposed solution extra grass on second farm if surplus bales were taken was this need on home farm and what were the transportation solutions and labour implications. What was the solution for a wet spring or autumn..

Keepgrowing

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I did not attend or did not see the figures. However as you pointed out early on this post labour will be the key issue on where second units fall down. In the case presented Irish grasslands it seems it is more a 1.5 set up rather than a separate second unit.

It is also very well about talking to get employee's to buy inbto what the farmer intends to achieve but in reality it is still the farmers that will receive any advantage accruing not the employee. All that is expected of any employee is an honest days work for the pay they receive. 40k might sound good but it still will not stack up IMO. Assuming employers PRSi of 8.5% it leaves about 38.5k to cover wages holidays and bank holidays . Taking B/H and annual leave it gives the average employee 30 days off in the year.

The reason these magical couple's are going to be targeted by these enterprises is to get around the time off requirements form work and weekly breaks. My comment about Siberia and Nigeria is that I think turn over will be huge with eastern European's as they are are au fait with Ireland now. Some relief milking's at the home farm could turn out to be an expectation of Saturday evening and Sunday on the home farm.

The real fall down is on the wage Milking is a split shift operation if that is all that is expected. It is where 2nd operations fall down. In reality in this situation from your post I assume that the home operation will do all caalving etc and all slurry and fertlizer will be contracted. However there is an assumption of labour being available at sub 10/ hour by a lot of these 2 be operations. My own opinion looking at the present labour market is that semi skilled labour is at about 15/hour and will be at 16-20/ hour in 2-3 years time if economy keeps climbing. The reason for this is that the building industry has still not started to build houses at present. This area has always competed with farming over the last 20 years. This will also impact on contracting charges. At present contracting charges are running at or near cost in most cases so there is little ability to consume that within present cost system.

The one thing about Eastern European labour is there ability to transfer skillsets. 4 years ago I had a Polish tiler doing a job, he was top class I was surprised to find he was a trained mechanic not a tiler by trade. Most are moving up the food chain very fast. There work ethic is excellent in general. It will be relatively easy to employ these couple's, the issue will be retaining them for longer than 6 months as they become accustomed to the Irish system.

Power point presentation are great they make everything look so easy. Where they fall down is in the implementation. Looking at 2 dairy operations last year might have been the year to strike rents were cheaper than they will be this year and you would have setup at lower cost and would have a lifting milk price and a chance that it will be 4-5 years before next trough. If everything was set up this year might be an option but 2018 may well be too late. Opportunity and danger are the same word in Chinese for a reason

I accept your opinion. I've operating a second unit for a few years now and while I'm aware of the labour issue we've not had a problem getting or retaining labour.

You're making the classic mistake on the "buy in". It's not about the business always but what the individual wants. You're boiling it down to money and as I've said that's not what makes people tick, it's how you treat them.

kerry cow

I have managed a 500 cow herd that was originally a 80 and 300 herd . It was a total balls even though the yards were a mile apart and the same machinery and driver covered both .
In the end it all became 1 herd of 500 and like I said unless there is a herd of 250 it's not worth bothering with .
There are guys our there who just want to milk a large number of cows and are willing to do it in multiple herd but really if you saw there banks accounts and profits it would shock you .just l9ok at the green field and all it has going for it from X y and z backing it with advise and low aib subsidies loans .
Too many want to bes out there .Just because others are up there , no one knows the reasons behind them and most have some type of extra income
Development land , road builds , , off farm income or other businesses and some guys have huge sfp , also shares .
Be careful it not easy compete .

mahoney_j

Personally have no ambition,want or need to complicate what I'm doing by chasing a second dairy unit ,dose it make me less ambitious etc ,like fook it dose .i like the simple things like time off ,family time ,etc .i love milking cows and doing things right and seeing them produce more milk and sokids yearly whilst maintaining a compact spring calving herd .i have fragmented land and will continue to keep some beef cattle whilst building my milk block Sr to somewhere around 3.8/4 cows per he .absoutely no motivation to manage staff on a second unit and deal with the associated headaches .saying that more power to those that do ,you have to admire them and there drive

Sillycave

I wonder how many farmers here are making 40k in wages?
I'd say if u offered most farmers on here 40k wages, say 6 day working week and 30 days off (including bank holidays) most would take it!!
Or maybe I am way off and farmers are making more here than anyone I know

Timmaay

mahoney_j wrote: »

Personally have no ambition,want or need to complicate what I'm doing by chasing a second dairy unit ,dose it make me less ambitious etc ,like fook it dose .i like the simple things like time off ,family time ,etc .i love milking cows and doing things right and seeing them produce more milk and sokids yearly whilst maintaining a compact spring calving herd .i have fragmented land and will continue to keep some beef cattle whilst building my milk block Sr to somewhere around 3.8/4 cows per he .absoutely no motivation to manage staff on a second unit and deal with the associated headaches .saying that more power to those that do ,you have to admire them and there drive

Largely the same here, except if I stocked what I can walk cows to at 3.8 I'd have 228 cows, no motivation at the minute to go anywhere near them sort of numbers bar something landed right in my lap regarding labour/partnership etc.

farisfat

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

From Sean o donnels paper today at IGA conference.
Sean is starting on a 40ha second block in '18
Jumping from 120 cows to 230cows
Just a parlour and grazing infastructure being built on new block. Wintering facilities being built in his own yard

Their could be problems in the west of Ireland with just a parlour and nó place to house cows in bad weather.

kowtow

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Wasnt at meeting and only going off what I see here. So these are questions not criticisms
But going back to scale, can a salary of 40k be justified (afforded) from 150 cows on leased ground
If he's calving all the cows at home, is there more wages going out there aswell.
Would 40k+parlour development costs+roadways+fencing, not pay for a 17year old idiot up on a tractor and ZGer for 2 hours a day??

Just a general question aswell
farmer A leases farm from farmer B, and farmer B is no longer farming. Farmer A spends on capital work on leased farm (parlour, roadways, etc). Is farmer A allowed to claim the unregistered VAT on this work. (Work done on land that's not his) Iykwim, or is partnerships the way around this?

On your second point it may depend on the terms of the lease but if the capital item is for the active farmer then I suspect he can reclaim the vat. It may be that he should then charge vat or account for it when and if the capital item reverts at the term of the lease.

On the first your point is the one which was also interesting me - I wasn;t at the conference so am in no way criticizing the paper or work done, I do recall reading a nuffield paper on it I think - and KG is right to point out that there is a capital / labour saving implicit in housing and calving at the home farm. Notwithstanding this the central question is can a leased farm support itself and pay some labour - if it can work this way as a 2nd farm it should also work as a home farm and if that is possible without unrealistic expectations of milk price then things are far from dark for the industry.

I promise to join the IGA this year, from what I have seen on twitter of this conference there was some really comprehensive and serious discussion.

Keepgrowing

kowtow wrote: »

On your second point it may depend on the terms of the lease but if the capital item is for the active farmer then I suspect he can reclaim the vat. It may be that he should then charge vat or account for it when and if the capital item reverts at the term of the lease.

On the first your point is the one which was also interesting me - I wasn;t at the conference so am in no way criticizing the paper or work done, I do recall reading a nuffield paper on it I think - and KG is right to point out that there is a capital / labour saving implicit in housing and calving at the home farm. Notwithstanding this the central question is can a leased farm support itself and pay some labour - if it can work this way as a 2nd farm it should also work as a home farm and if that is possible without unrealistic expectations of milk price then things are far from dark for the industry.

I promise to join the IGA this year, from what I have seen on twistter of this conference there was some really comprehensive and serious discussion.

Yes and the networking event didn't end well, some fair shook people after it

Keepgrowing

Timmaay wrote: »

Largely the same here, except if I stocked what I can walk cows to at 3.8 I'd have 228 cows, no motivation at the minute to go anywhere near them sort of numbers bar something landed right in my lap regarding labour/partnership etc.

Just curious Tim, would you not consider that you aren't getting maximum return on your assets?