Gas Boiler Replacement - time to complete?

Danbo!

Getting our 25+ year old boiler replaced, it's currently in a cupboard in the kitchen. Getting the new boiler put onto the party wall in the attic out of the way, so the job includes:

• running a new gas line from the meter up to the boiler
• venting via the roof
• a walkway to the boiler (req'ment for servicing)
• removing old boiler and filling wall where vent was
• chemical flush
• some minor pipework/valve installation to detach the heating from the hot water
• New thermostatic valves to 7 rads
• installation of a nest thermostat.

Basically, I was told 2 days and the work was to commence tomorrow. Just got a call to say there was a scheduling issue, and they'd be out friday but would have an extra couple of people so assured me it would be completed in a day, may be late, but they'll be done Friday.

Thing is, I had to sort overnight accommodation tomorrow for us as our daughter cannot be in the house without heading due to a medical issue. I managed to cancel and that's all fine, but now I'm thinking if they cannot get it done on Friday, it'll run into the weekend and cost to get 3 nights away from the house. I'm gonna call again tomorrow to speak to them, but is the above job realistic in a day starting at 8am?

Thanks

Robbie.G

Danbo! wrote: »

Getting our 25+ year old boiler replaced, it's currently in a cupboard in the kitchen. Getting the new boiler put onto the party wall in the attic out of the way, so the job includes:

• running a new gas line from the meter up to the boiler
• venting via the roof
• a walkway to the boiler (req'ment for servicing)
• removing old boiler and filling wall where vent was
• chemical flush
• some minor pipework/valve installation to detach the heating from the hot water
• New thermostatic valves to 7 rads
• installation of a nest thermostat.

Basically, I was told 2 days and the work was to commence tomorrow. Just got a call to say there was a scheduling issue, and they'd be out friday but would have an extra couple of people so assured me it would be completed in a day, may be late, but they'll be done Friday.

Thing is, I had to sort overnight accommodation tomorrow for us as our daughter cannot be in the house without heading due to a medical issue. I managed to cancel and that's all fine, but now I'm thinking if they cannot get it done on Friday, it'll run into the weekend and cost to get 3 nights away from the house. I'm gonna call again tomorrow to speak to them, but is the above job realistic in a day starting at 8am?

Thanks

Oh it's possible but I would be very wary of the work to flush a heating system would take the guts of a day in its self to do it right never mind the rest

Danbo!

Robbie.G wrote: »

Oh it's possible but I would be very wary of the work to flush a heating system would take the guts of a day in its self to do it right never mind the rest

Cheers, I thought that alright :rolleyes:

I'm guessing it's one of those things that takes time no matter how many people you throw at the problem.

Dtp1979

Danbo! wrote: »

Cheers, I thought that alright :rolleyes:

I'm guessing it's one of those things that takes time no matter how many people you throw at the problem.

Yes exactly. There's 2 days work for 2 guys in that. I sound like a broken record saying this but don't waste your money on a chemical flush. You could literally do it yourself. It's a waste of time and money.

Danbo!

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Yes exactly. There's 2 days work for 2 guys in that. I sound like a broken record saying this but don't waste your money on a chemical flush. You could literally do it yourself. It's a waste of time and money.

Cheers, it's small money relative to the cost of the overall job and it's much better being left in the hands of professionals than me, trust me.

Now to figure out exactly how professional these lads are... I might try reschedule even if it's a pain in the ass after taking time off work, but the last thing I want is a boiler installed or gas line tampered with under a tight deadline.

EDIT: Checked the itemised bill there, it's €69 for the flush and item description is "Refill system, treat with chemical cleaner, run until hot and drain"

Dtp1979

Danbo! wrote: »

Cheers, it's small money relative to the cost of the overall job and it's much better being left in the hands of professionals than me, trust me.

Now to figure out exactly how professional these lads are... I might try reschedule even if it's a pain in the ass after taking time off work, but the last thing I want is a boiler installed or gas line tampered with under a tight deadline.

EDIT: Checked the itemised bill there, it's €69 for the flush and item description is "Refill system, treat with chemical cleaner, run until hot and drain"

69 euro is nothing short of laughable I'm afraid to say.
In my opinion any tradesman who does a chemical flush shouldn't be called a professional.
If I were you I would cancel these cowboys, post your location here and hopefully someone can reccomend somebody that'll do a good job for you

Danbo!

Dtp1979 wrote: »

69 euro is nothing short of laughable I'm afraid to say.
In my opinion any tradesman who does a chemical flush shouldn't be called a professional.
If I were you I would cancel these cowboys, post your location here and hopefully someone can reccomend somebody that'll do a good job for you

Do you mean that's expensive/cheap/they shouldn't do it? Sorry I don't follow

Dtp1979

Danbo! wrote: »

Do you mean that's expensive/cheap/they shouldn't do it? Sorry I don't follow

Sorry. A chemical flush is a cutting corners to the extreme compared to a powerflush. You should be paying 400-500 for the job to be done properly. 69euro shows me these guys are complete chancers.

Danbo!

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Sorry. A chemical flush is a cutting corners to the extreme compared to a powerflush. You should be paying 400-500 for the job to be done properly. 69euro shows me these guys are complete chancers.

Understood. Some phone calls to be made tomorrow so. These lads are a fairly big nationwide company, a little pricier than some quotes but good testimonials from friends who've had work similar work done. Balls.

Dtp1979

Danbo! wrote: »

Understood. Some phone calls to be made tomorrow so. These lads are a fairly big nationwide company, a little pricier than some quotes but good testimonials from friends who've had work similar work done. Balls.

Be prepared to hear
- powerflushing is bad for your system
- a chemical flush is better for older systems
- powerflushing causes leaks
And more of the above and none of which is true

GopErthike

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Be prepared to hear
- powerflushing is bad for your system
- a chemical flush is better for older systems
- powerflushing causes leaks
And more of the above and none of which is true

I'm guessing there are situations where 2 out of those 3 could be true.

roy rodgers

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Sorry. A chemical flush is a cutting corners to the extreme compared to a powerflush. You should be paying 400-500 for the job to be done properly. 69euro shows me these guys are complete chancers.

I'm sorry here dtp1979. How can you say "a chemical flush is cutting corners to the extreme"??
In all boiler manuals they never refer to a power flush they do refer to chemical flush to the system as a must..
You don't know what the system is like at the moment it could of been treated with Inhibitor from day one..
I think your scare mongering is very inappropriate. A good professional plumber that is on the Job can only make that call. I don't agree that every system needs to be power flushed. I've seen it being a waste of money for the customer some times. The majority of heating systems out there are in good condition and the manufacturers of all theses boilers are happy with systems to be chemical flushed and at the end of the day that's the bible to be following.
Your opinion is worthy but every job is different and calling lads chancers isn't quite giving the confidence to a person who's gonna spent a lot of money up grading his boiler with out seeing the job for yourself.. there is certainly more good plumbers out there than cowboys..
We don't know how many plumbers are going on the job there could be 3 or 4 or5 and the OP said his child has a medical condition so the bigger company probably can put extra men on the job to accommodate the OP so the house isn't disrupted for a long period of time and it's back to normal as soon as possible..
Op if this is a reputedly company I'm sure your gonna be fine. I'd be more nervous of the one man band company.

Wearb

I am not taking sides here, but here is something that I found on the subject. It seems there are times when either one or the other is the best choice.

4.1 General considerations
The installer has a choice of cleaning methodologies available which will meet the requirements of the Building
Regulations for England and Wales, Part L., 2006. The regulations stipulate that a chemical cleaning agent must be used
and that a fresh water flush only is no longer acceptable for either new or existing systems.
The installer must carry out a chemical clean followed by a fresh water flush before an inhibitor is added. The efficiency
and efficacy of these operations can be improved by use of a powerflushing pump. Powerflushing has the advantage over
gravity cleaning in that the process is both faster and can ensure a more effective clean in the majority of cases.
It is extremely important that both specifiers and installers appreciate that cleaning of both newly installed and existing
systems takes time. A conventional clean and flush using gravity to empty the system, can take up to a full working day
depending on the size of the heating system. Powerflushing is a dynamic technique and will not only reduce the time
on-site for the installer, but will also improve the efficacy of the clean. Four to six hours should be allowed to
powerflush and re-commission a typical domestic central heating system.

AND:
4.3 Choice of Methodology
When deciding on whether to use a gravity clean and flush or a powerflush there are a number of factors which need to
be considered. These include the age and condition of the system, the degree of contamination and corrosion evident
within a system, the time available to clean, and the system specification.
Simple chemical test kits are available from chemical manufacturers designed to aid the installer in making a decision on
the state of the water inside the system. These provide tests for contaminants such as chloride from flux residues,
dissolved iron, dissolved copper, and may also test pH, whether an inhibitor is present in the system and if so, the
dosage level.
Chemical manufacturers may also provide a more accurate laboratory service for determining these parameters.
Existing systems with a high level of corrosion or black magnetite sludge will benefit most from powerflushing. Using a
gravity clean will be time consuming and will leave contamination within the system, particularly below drain point levels.
Special consideration should be given to the condition of the system if it has been operated in this state over a period of
time. Corrosion debris could be blocking pin-holes in radiators, and in these instances powerflushing may lead to
system leaks. In these circumstances, the radiators should be replaced, preferably before cleaning is undertaken.

EDIT: More
Powerflushing is not suitable for all systems. As a general guide, the following systems or components should
not be powerflushed:
• Single pipe systems
• Systems with passivated steel pipework
• Older systems with stainless steel pipework
The following systems require special consideration and engineers should refer to powerflushing machine
manufacturers’ guidance notes.
• Gravity hot water systems
• Twin entry radiator valves
• Primatic cylinders
If in doubt, contact the manufacturer.

GopErthike

Wearb wrote: »

I am not taking sides here, but here is something that I found on the subject. It seems there are times when either one or the other is the best choice.

My point exactly, most good guys working on heating systems know the above. There is very rarely a silver bullet solution to a heating system.

Dtp1979

The only way you're going to guarantee a system gas being cleaned properly is to powerflush it. I've come across plenty where the rads appear to be heating well and you might say didn't need a powerflush. But it's amazing how much dirt is still removed after the job. So yes I would always say a chemical flush is a complete waste of time and money.
On the rare occasion where I flushed a system that turned out to be spotless, it obviously took very little time so I'd make the homeowner aware of this and their final bill would be reduced accordingly.

On older systems obviously more consideration must be taken but I'm of the belief that if a system cannot withstand a powerflush then it shouldn't be in operation in the first place.

roy rodgers

Dtp1979 wrote: »

The only way you're going to guarantee a system gas being cleaned properly is to powerflush it. I've come across plenty where the rads appear to be heating well and you might say didn't need a powerflush. But it's amazing how much dirt is still removed after the job. So yes I would always say a chemical flush is a complete waste of time and money.
On the rare occasion where I flushed a system that turned out to be spotless, it obviously took very little time so I'd make the homeowner aware of this and their final bill would be reduced accordingly.

On older systems obviously more consideration must be taken but I'm of the belief that if a system cannot withstand a powerflush then it shouldn't be in operation in the first place.

That's all fine. my issue was you were calling lads "chancers" and "cowboys" very quickly there without known the full story. We are here to give good advice and without trying to out stage one another. We all know you feel strongly about power flushing but it's not always the right solution for the job.

Thanks for that wearb good read..

Dtp1979

roy rodgers wrote: »

That's all fine. my issue was you were calling lads "chancers" and "cowboys" very quickly there without known the full story. We are here to give good advice and without trying to out stage one another. We all know you feel strongly about power flushing but it's not always the right solution for the job.

Thanks for that wearb good read..

Sorry Roy but I honestly see chemical flushing as cutting corners. Therefore people who cut corners are chancers. Maybe I'm being harsh and Maybe these guys know no better and actually think a chemical flush is a good job but to be fair it isn't

Dtp1979

GopErthike wrote: »

I'm guessing there are situations where 2 out of those 3 could be true.

Well no.
Powerflushing isn't bad for a system
As for older systems, if a system cannot withstand 1.5 bar then that system shouldn't be in operation
And powerflushing does not cause leaks. It merely exposes them.

Danbo!

roy rodgers wrote: »

I'm sorry here dtp1979. How can you say "a chemical flush is cutting corners to the extreme"??
In all boiler manuals they never refer to a power flush they do refer to chemical flush to the system as a must..
You don't know what the system is like at the moment it could of been treated with Inhibitor from day one..
I think your scare mongering is very inappropriate. A good professional plumber that is on the Job can only make that call. I don't agree that every system needs to be power flushed. I've seen it being a waste of money for the customer some times. The majority of heating systems out there are in good condition and the manufacturers of all theses boilers are happy with systems to be chemical flushed and at the end of the day that's the bible to be following.
Your opinion is worthy but every job is different and calling lads chancers isn't quite giving the confidence to a person who's gonna spent a lot of money up grading his boiler with out seeing the job for yourself.. there is certainly more good plumbers out there than cowboys..
We don't know how many plumbers are going on the job there could be 3 or 4 or5 and the OP said his child has a medical condition so the bigger company probably can put extra men on the job to accommodate the OP so the house isn't disrupted for a long period of time and it's back to normal as soon as possible..
Op if this is a reputedly company I'm sure your gonna be fine. I'd be more nervous of the one man band company.

Cheers for that.

Did a lot of reading today on the subject and I see there are conflicting opinions on it. The warranty for the new boiler states a flush should be carried out but does not specify a power flush.

The foreman(?)/manager came out this evening to do a quick inspection and ran through the job, what will happen when, etc. It'll be him and 3 lads. The system is actually 21 years old, all radiators heating fine and consistent.

I asked about the flush and he said chemical is absolutely fine given the type/age/condition, if I felt more comfortable they'd do a powerflush but would need to reschedule (and pay more), but from the first survey a few weeks back to give the final quote, they were satisfied a chemical flush is sufficient. I got the impression from him he'd been doing jobs like this for years.