Constitutional threshold on income?

Annasopra

I heard somewhere a long time ago that there is a constitutional guarantee of financial support or income. Is that the case?

coylemj

No, the closest there is to a 'guarantee' relating to financial support of the type you're thinking of is this provision (2.2 below) in Article 41 ('The Family') but I'm not sure if it's ever been tested in the courts to see what practical effect it has ....

2. 1 In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2.2 The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Mr. Incognito

No there is not

We have enough free loading water charge folk already. Can you imagine if they got a hold of that idea.

dar100

coylemj wrote: »

No, the closest there is to a 'guarantee' relating to financial support of the type you're thinking of is this provision (2.2 below) in Article 41 ('The Family') but I'm not sure if it's ever been tested in the courts to see what practical effect it has ....

2. 1 In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2.2 The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Is this legislation? Where from?

dar100

dar100 wrote: »

Is this legislation? Where from?

The constitution / the 1860's

Annasopra

coylemj wrote: »

No, the closest there is to a 'guarantee' relating to financial support of the type you're thinking of is this provision (2.2 below) in Article 41 ('The Family') but I'm not sure if it's ever been tested in the courts to see what practical effect it has ....

2. 1 In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2.2 The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

No

Thats not what I am thinking of

coylemj

dar100 wrote: »

Is this legislation? Where from?

Yes, although the OP asked about a 'constitutional guarantee', I nevertheless felt it appropriate to quote from the Guarantee of a minimum wage for stay at home Irish Mammies Act 1982.

Annasopra

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

No there is not

We have enough free loading water charge folk already. Can you imagine if they got a hold of that idea.

Imagine! Shockin altogether to legislate for rights and dignity!

athtrasna

That section of the Constitution was selected to be removed by referendum by the constitutional review commission or whatever it was called during the last Dáil term. It was one of the referenda mooted for the super referendum day.

Has absolutely no place in our constitution, along with a whole lot of other stuff imo.

And OP I don't know where you got the notion that there was a constitutional entitlement to a certain income level. Sounds very communist!

Carawaystick

coylemj wrote: »

2.2 The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.
[/I]

I'd imagine this will get tested when a married mammy falls out with the other mammy heading for divorce, if it's not gone in 4 years

Mr. Incognito

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Imagine! Shockin altogether to legislate for rights and dignity!

Rights and Dignity are not the same as a free house and free money and free plumbed water.

The correct term for that is freeloading.

plodder

coylemj wrote: »

No, the closest there is to a 'guarantee' relating to financial support of the type you're thinking of is this provision (2.2 below) in Article 41 ('The Family') but I'm not sure if it's ever been tested in the courts to see what practical effect it has ....

2. 1 In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2.2 The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

I've always been surprised that nobody ever challenged (income) tax individualisation brought in by Charlie McCreevy, all those years ago. It does seem to be contrary to that provision. Even if it is antiquated and outdated, it's still there in black and white.

Mr. Incognito

plodder wrote: »

I've always been surprised that nobody ever challenged (income) tax individualisation brought in by Charlie McCreevy, all those years ago. It does seem to be contrary to that provision. Even if it is antiquated and outdated, it's still there in black and white.

They did. There used to be a seperate pay and rate for married men and single men.

The result was that they did away with the married man rate and everyone got the same.

plodder

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

They did. There used to be a seperate pay and rate for married men and single men.

The result was that they did away with the married man rate and everyone got the same.

Yes, they changed the system, but what surprises me is that nobody ever challenged the legality of the change, with respect to that provision in the constitution, because it could be argued that it forced women into the workplace.

To get the most benefit from tax credits etc. both spouses in a family have to be employed and earning, whereas before that wasn't the case.

Mr. Incognito

plodder wrote: »

Yes, they changed the system, but what surprises me is that nobody ever challenged the legality of the change, with respect to that provision in the constitution, because it could be argued that it forced women into the workplace.

To get the most benefit from tax credits etc. both spouses in a family have to be employed and earning, whereas before that wasn't the case.

No. Previously married men had a seperate tax credit if they were married.

Now they dont. Everyone has a credit individually and if you get married you can take your wifes credit if she is not working

huskerdu

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

No. Previously married men had a seperate tax credit if they were married.

Now they dont. Everyone has a credit individually and if you get married you can take your wifes credit if she is not working

Correction

Everyone has a credit individually and if you get married you can take your spouses credit if he/she is not working

infogiver

huskerdu wrote: »

Correction

Everyone has a credit individually and if you get married you can take your spouses credit if he/she is not working

But if she/he is not your actual SPOUSE as in a person to whom you are legally married, then this doesn't apply

huskerdu

infogiver wrote: »

But if she/he is not your actual SPOUSE as in a person to whom you are legally married, then this doesn't apply

I know, that is what a spouse is.

plodder

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

No. Previously married men had a seperate tax credit if they were married.

Now they dont. Everyone has a credit individually and if you get married you can take your wifes credit if she is not working

Ok, I didn't realise that. I thought it was the case at some stage where it became less favourable for a single income family earning X euro, as compared with a dual income family earning X euro between them..

Actually, it's off topic really, but I see the picture is a bit more complicated. A married couple with one income hits the 40% bracket at a lower level than a dual income couple. So, there is a difference.

Carawaystick

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

No. Previously married men had a seperate tax credit if they were married.

Now they dont. Everyone has a credit individually and if you get married you can take your wifes credit if she is not working

Spouse income tax credits are only realy transferrable where one spouse isn't earning income, it's nothing to do with if their working or not. Lots of work has no pay, Childrearing or starting a business being the most common examples

Mr. Incognito

Carawaystick wrote: »

Spouse income tax credits are only realy transferrable where one spouse isn't earning income, it's nothing to do with if their working or not. Lots of work has no pay, Childrearing or starting a business being the most common examples

God the PC brigade are out in force today.

Credits are transferred if your wife is not in employment. 99% of people reading my post would have understood that. One wouldnt start a business that is making no money so the credits would be retained by the wife in that situation.

I don't describe child rearing as "work" by the way. Neither does anyone I know. It's a privilege to raise my son.

Samuel T. Cogley

OP you may be thinking of Article 45

DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF SOCIAL POLICY

ARTICLE 45

The principles of social policy set forth in this Article are intended for the general guidance of the Oireachtas. The application of those principles in the making of laws shall be the care of the Oireachtas exclusively, and shall not be cognisable by any Court under any of the provisions of this Constitution.

1 The State shall strive to promote the welfare of the whole people by securing and protecting as effectively as it may a social order in which justice and charity shall inform all the institutions of the national life.

2 The State shall, in particular, direct its policy towards securing:–

i That the citizens (all of whom, men and women equally, have the right to an adequate means of livelihood) may through their occupations find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs.

ii That the ownership and control of the material resources of the community may be so distributed amongst private individuals and the various classes as best to subserve the common good.

iii That, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.

iv That in what pertains to the control of credit the constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole.

v That there may be established on the land in economic security as many families as in the circumstances shall be practicable.

3 1° The State shall favour and, where necessary, supplement private initiative in industry and commerce.

2° The State shall endeavour to secure that private enterprise shall be so conducted as to ensure reasonable efficiency in the production and distribution of goods and as to protect the public against unjust exploitation.

4 1° The State pledges itself to safeguard with especial care the economic interests of the weaker sections of the community, and, where necessary, to contribute to the support of the infirm, the widow, the orphan, and the aged.

2° The State shall endeavour to ensure that the strength and health of workers, men and women, and the tender age of children shall not be abused and that citizens shall not be forced by economic necessity to enter avocations unsuited to their sex, age or strength.

blackwhite

plodder wrote: »

Ok, I didn't realise that. I thought it was the case at some stage where it became less favourable for a single income family earning X euro, as compared with a dual income family earning X euro between them..

Actually, it's off topic really, but I see the picture is a bit more complicated. A married couple with one income hits the 40% bracket at a lower level than a dual income couple. So, there is a difference.

There is a point - but it's to do with the standard rate cut-off thresholds - not the tax credits.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it2.html

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it1.html

For a single person, the higher rate kicks in at €33,800.

For married couple where only one person works then the higher rate kicks in at €42,800 of their combined income.

For a married couple where both earn over €24,800 then they get a combined €67,600 before the higher rate applies.

If both work, but the lower paid has an income of less than €24,800 then the threshold is €42,800 plus the income of the lower paid spouse.