Dark Wood Options

rampantbunny

Hi all. I'm looking for a dark wood from which to have stairs threads made from. Have always thought walnut to be the only option, but probably because most people I know that have darker hardwood stairs tell me they are made from walnut.

To give an idea of what I'm after, take a look at the picture attached. This is the type of flooring I have, and I'd like to get close to this if possible.
There's very little in the way of colour change throughout the flooring and I'm not sure walnut will match it in this fashion. The flooring is not real wood but a laminate.

Is there a wood I could buy planed that would suit, or am I looking at having to dye a particular wood to get this look?

recipio

It looks very much like an African wood called wenge. Its available here - the Carpentry store in Naas will have it but expect to pay around the same as walnut.You could get a joiner to use the same laminate as your floor glued down to a substrate but of course you would have a 'two tone' look on the edges.

rampantbunny

recipio wrote: »

It looks very much like an African wood called wenge. Its available here - the Carpentry store in Naas will have it but expect to pay around the same as walnut.You could get a joiner to use the same laminate as your floor glued down to a substrate but of course you would have a 'two tone' look on the edges.

I've seen wenge on various internal door websites and liked it but went with white doors in the end.

I understand what you are saying re. using the laminate for steps and I had considered how it might be done, but the corners and joints would ruin it I think.
I'll check out the Nass store. I'm nowhere near that side of the country though...I'll chat them to find out but do you think they'd send a sample?

listermint

rampantbunny wrote: »

I've seen wenge on various internal door websites and liked it but went with white doors in the end.

I understand what you are saying re. using the laminate for steps and I had considered how it might be done, but the corners and joints would ruin it I think.
I'll check out the Nass store. I'm nowhere near that side of the country though...I'll chat them to find out but do you think they'd send a sample?

Do you really want a timber threads ? They are a disaster if wet. i.e dangerous disaster.

Wouldnt be for me tbh especially with kids around.

rampantbunny

listermint wrote: »

Do you really want a timber threads ? They are a disaster if wet. i.e dangerous disaster.

Wouldnt be for me tbh especially with kids around.

I do indeed want timber treads (I've been spelling that wrong all along). But each to their own.

rampantbunny

Have just been informed that wenge could cost twice as much as walnut.

I'll need to have a backup plan. What are opinions on dyes/stains in hardwood e.g.
are they only really skin deep so that scratches can be very noticeable, or are they a definite no no for purists?

What is a good hardwood with simple grain, that would take a dark stain well?

Double Barrel

I would suggest using aniline dye.
For a darker deeper effect follow with a wiping stain. The dye gets you most of the way there and the stain gives a deeper, richer effect.

Aniline dye does not mask the grain like stains do and they will not interfere with top coats because they soak entirely into the wood.
Water or alcohol based your choice.
Oak timber would be a good choice.

rampantbunny

Double Barrel wrote: »

I would suggest using aniline dye.
For a darker deeper effect follow with a wiping stain. The dye gets you most of the way there and the stain gives a deeper, richer effect.

Aniline dye does not mask the grain like stains do and they will not interfere with top coats because they soak entirely into the wood.
Water or alcohol based your choice.
Oak timber would be a good choice.

Have done a bit of reading up on aniline dyes. Its use doesn't seem to require specialist knowledge so a mucker like me could probably DIY it. I'd prefer this because I can control the exact colour finish.

On the wiping stain; is it a case of getting the right colour with the aniline first, then lastly, a layer of the wiping stain over the top?
Would this wiping stain threaten the colour in any way if it was darker? - sorry not familiar with this process.

tabby aspreme

Before you decide to use a stain , check that each part of the stairs gets a similar amount of light and preferably no direct sunlight , otherwise the color will fade unevenly over time

Double Barrel

rampantbunny wrote: »

Have done a bit of reading up on aniline dyes. Its use doesn't seem to require specialist knowledge so a mucker like me could probably DIY it. I'd prefer this because I can control the exact colour finish.

On the wiping stain; is it a case of getting the right colour with the aniline first,YES
then lastly, a layer of the wiping stain over the top? Yes

Would this wiping stain threaten the colour in any way if it was darker? - NO

Use a few scrap pieces of the same wood as a story board.
It is best to apply the dye in steps.
1. If you are using water based, raise the grain with water. Run a damp rag over the surface of the wood, let the wood dry 15/20 minutes, then sand with the grain with 200 grit, just enough to knock back the raised grain.

2. Re-wet the wood lightly, so you don’t get lap marks. Lap marks are where the wood soaks up the dye and dries out fast. By the time you are ready to make your next pass with the applicator, the dye has dried into the wood and will then take more and create a lap mark. You can do this a few times or use a more concentrated mixture of dye, but it’s always good to start out too light and then add more color.

3. Wipe the excess away and let dry. Overnight is good, but depending on humidity and temp, an hour or two or five may be enough.

4.It’s at this point you can apply the stain. If you have a color close to the one you want to achieve, you can put on a sealer coat and then the stain. You can also adjust the color using tinted top coats or toners.

What are you using as a top (finish) product?
DB

rampantbunny

Double Barrel wrote: »

Use a few scrap pieces of the same wood as a story board.
It is best to apply the dye in steps.
1. ...
2. ...
3. ...
4.It’s at this point you can apply the stain. If you have a color close to the one you want to achieve, you can put on a sealer coat and then the stain. You can also adjust the color using tinted top coats or toners.

What are you using as a top (finish) product?
DB

I started the thread to determine what sort of wood to use, but I'm on a different tangent right now. So I'm basically learning as I go here Doubel Barrel (courtesy of your advice mostly) - unsurprisingly I haven't worked out what/how I should finish the tread.

To keep things as simple as possible, I'd be hoping to have the desired colour achieved courtesy of the aniline dye, then stain and then finish product (whatever that should be).
Adjusting the colour with tint/toner hopefully won't be necessary as I've 56+ treads to make (there are two stairs) so I need to be able to repeat the process with predictable results.

What are the options for top product?
I'm guessing I'd need to stipulate whether I want a matt or gloss finish. I would assume gloss is slippy therefore unsafe to finish for stairs - please correct me if I'm wrong.



As an aside, if you or anyone can recommend someone in the Galway area that would dye/finish the item can you please PM me.

tabby aspreme

Out of curiosity, is it a concrete stairs the threads are for.

rampantbunny

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Out of curiosity, is it a concrete stairs the threads are for.

No, the structure is steel. If I was a bachelor and into the minimalist pad look it would function as it was, with a bit of work to close the risers for regs. But it's a family home. Stairs are cantilevered from central wall and need to clad with a timber that aligns with wifes chosen flooring. If not we're going to have too many different textures and colours.

rampantbunny

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Before you decide to use a stain , check that each part of the stairs gets a similar amount of light and preferably no direct sunlight , otherwise the color will fade unevenly over time

There's no direct sunlight on any of the stairs so might be OK on that front.

recipio

Mmm............I'm not so sure how durable a dyed wood would be. Perhaps its might be better to step back and reconsider. After all there is no law that the stair treads need to match the floor. It seems to be a contemporary structure so maybe give it a contemporary finish like Baltic ply.? I have also seen stair treads made from a grid of wood ( often found in showers ) which is also non slip.If you are going to get a joiner to do all this you will have substantial labour and vat costs so I'd be looking to cut down on the materials input.

rampantbunny

recipio wrote: »

Mmm............I'm not so sure how durable a dyed wood would be. Perhaps its might be better to step back and reconsider. After all there is no law that the stair treads need to match the floor. It seems to be a contemporary structure so maybe give it a contemporary finish like Baltic ply.? I have also seen stair treads made from a grid of wood ( often found in showers ) which is also non slip.If you are going to get a joiner to do all this you will have substantial labour and vat costs so I'd be looking to cut down on the materials input.

The fabrication of the treads is the easy part for us (someone in the family has a good deal of furniture training behind him). Essentially, we're making a timber box for the steel. The intention is to save money on fabrication, by sourcing the timber ourselves and chain-sawing away.

Certain joineries I've spoken with have already suggested dying oak or ash but others are not so keen on this, so I'm definitely giving credence to what you're saying. But I would just build some extra treads to compensate for potential scratches that couldn't be easily fixed, or keep some wood spare. Wouldn't be an insurmountable problem.

recipio wrote: »

After all there is no law that the stair treads need to match the floor.

Have you not ever heard of the law that says 'do what the wife wants..or else..'.
The house is contemporary enough alright, but the more material or colours/introduced and it become less so. We want to have some tie-in between the major surfaces if possible. Plus white walls and a dark stairs would look good IMO.

Sparks

What about ebonised oak? That'd look a bit darker than the photo though.

rampantbunny

Sparks wrote: »

What about ebonised oak? That'd look a bit darker than the photo though.

Probably a bit too dark Sparks, but thanks for the suggestion nonetheless.

recipio

rampantbunny wrote: »

The intention is to save money on fabrication, by sourcing the timber ourselves and chain-sawing away

Certain joineries I've spoken with have already suggested dying oak or ash but others are not so keen on this, so I'm definitely giving credence to what you're saying.

Are you going to mill the timber yourself !? That would be adventurous. I wouldn't dye oak or ash - the strong grain contrast in both those woods make them impossible to apply dye evenly. Yellow poplar would be a better choice.
You are not going to find an exact match so its a question of finding a finish that you like and using it as economically as you can.
If your joiner is willing you could make 3 mm veneers from whatever hardwood you like and glue them to an inert substrate like plywood. You would need to glue on a 30 mm slip to the front for wear ( or milling a bullnose profile ) and 6mm slips all round. A lot of work for the family friend but it can be done.

Double Barrel

This the photo the OP (rampant bunny) posted in the first post.
Sure looks like oak to my eye, but it could be any open grained wood with a dye applied.
"Have you not ever heard of the law that says 'do what the wife wants..or else..'. " Otherwise known as "She who must be obeyed" :rolleyes:;)

My recommendation for a topcoat would be 2-3 coats of Bona Traffic Anti-Slip or Bona Traffic HD or similar.




A white oak floor with an aniline dye.

rampantbunny

recipio wrote: »

Are you going to mill the timber yourself !? That would be adventurous. I wouldn't dye oak or ash - the strong grain contrast in both those woods make them impossible to apply dye evenly. Yellow poplar would be a better choice.
You are not going to find an exact match so its a question of finding a finish that you like and using it as economically as you can.
If your joiner is willing you could make 3 mm veneers from whatever hardwood you like and glue them to an inert substrate like plywood. You would need to glue on a 30 mm slip to the front for wear ( or milling a bullnose profile ) and 6mm slips all round. A lot of work for the family friend but it can be done.

Sorry, no, not milling the timber ourselves...the chainsaw things was a failed attempt at humour. I hadn't thought of the veneer approach but it does sound to be labour intensive. There's only so much I'd ask the friend to do, and at 28+ treads it's a bit of an ask.

So, I'm definitely veering towards the dyed wood approach. FWIW, the picture I originally posted is of a product labelled black fired oak...so maybe oak is the wood I should use. I might just bite the bullet and get a few different types, then spend a day with some dye to see what happens.


And again, if anyone knows of a person that would dye wood in this fashion for a fee, please let me know. I know my limitations, and time is one of them.

recipio

I have a little experience of using aniline dyes and they certainly are better than water or oil stains, I got the best results by spraying the dye with plenty of ventilation. Each coat dries in a matter of minutes and you can build up a few coats to darken the wood.
If you are going to use oak why not try fuming with .880 ammonia.? You build an airtight container and leave the wood for as long as it takes - up to two days for a dark look. Obviously try a few test scraps first to see how the process works. It has the advantage of being fade proof as it a chemical reaction in the wood and you can buy .880 ammonia in your local chemist for a lot less than aniline dyes !

rampantbunny

recipio wrote: »

I have a little experience of using aniline dyes and they certainly are better than water or oil stains, I got the best results by spraying the dye with plenty of ventilation. Each coat dries in a matter of minutes and you can build up a few coats to darken the wood.
If you are going to use oak why not try fuming with .880 ammonia.? You build an airtight container and leave the wood for as long as it takes - up to two days for a dark look. Obviously try a few test scraps first to see how the process works. It has the advantage of being fade proof as it a chemical reaction in the wood and you can buy .880 ammonia in your local chemist for a lot less than aniline dyes !

The ammonia process was mentioned to me just last night actually. The person was going to dig around a bit for more information but I'll check youtube to see if any examples of the final finish. Do you happen to have any photos of the end product yourself?

On the aniline front, I rang a large paint supplier yesterday and they never heard of aniline dye. Any recommendations on where best to get it if I do go that route?

tabby aspreme

Mrcb in Dublin definitely have them , if they don't do mail order, try Restoration Materials in Bury UK

recipio

rampantbunny wrote: »

The ammonia process was mentioned to me just last night actually. The person was going to dig around a bit for more information but I'll check youtube to see if any examples of the final finish. Do you happen to have any photos of the end product yourself?

On the aniline front, I rang a large paint supplier yesterday and they never heard of aniline dye. Any recommendations on where best to get it if I do go that route?

Well, I bought a bottle of .880 ammonia from my local chemist a few years ago so it should be available. I experimented with a few small pieces and it certainly works on woods like oak and chestnut that have a high tannin content.You leave the pieces in a sealed tent with a dish of ammonia. Simple as.
For the aniline ( spirit ) dyes I can recommend' Light Hardware Supplies' just outside Nenagh. Best to do a little research first and you can mix dyes from the same manufacturer. They are pricey - about 40 euro for five litres.There is also a 'sample pack' made by Chestnut in the UK available on UK websites or try the Carpentry store in Naas. You get small samples to try out and find a suitable colour.Its best to buy any aniline dye at home as the UK retailers are not technically allowed to export them although #bay sellers are not always that fussy.

tabby aspreme

The powder can be exported , not the mixed stain, much cheaper to buy the powder and mix yourself.

rampantbunny

Thanks folks. This has been (for me) an education. Only thing left now is to act on the information...never the easiest part.

recipio

tabby aspreme wrote: »

The powder can be exported , not the mixed stain, much cheaper to buy the powder and mix yourself.

Mix with what ? Meths ? the commercial stuff evaporates in minutes.

tabby aspreme

Meths or water, some can be mixed with both , I've always used meths myself

rampantbunny

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Mrcb in Dublin definitely have them , if they don't do mail order, try Restoration Materials in Bury UK

Was in touch with MRCB in Dublin. Spoke to a gentleman there who told me that I'd have to mix different shades of the powdered aniline together to get the color I wanted, like brown, yellow, red, black. Plus the advice was to mix enough in one batch to ensure no color difference between one blend and the next i.e. do the whole lot in one go. I asked if they did pre-mixed batches themselves such as a 'dark-oak' and he said no.

TA, have you bought from them before? And if yes, did you get blended colors?
I also mentioned getting a 'wiping stain' to which he said, 'never heard of such a thing'. I said 'how about a stain you wipe on' and was told I'd need to be more specific - fair enough I suppose.


The restoration materials site in the UK sell blended powder mixes @ £12 each not including delivery. I might get some off them just see.


In Nenagh, LightHardwareSupplies tell me they don't have aniline dyes...but after my telephone call with them I'm wondering if they just don't realize that the dye they sell is an aniline type dye. Never got the name of it to check it out.

Finally, spoke with a man who has used ammonia to dye wood often enough in the past. He maintained that it would be difficult to get the same result each time so I would need to look at doing this in bulk to ensure some consistency. He also said that between different cuts of wood he has got varying results meaning 18hrs for one cut might not give the same result as 18hrs for another. Lots of variables.

recipio

rampantbunny wrote: »

In Nenagh, LightHardwareSupplies tell me they don't have aniline dyes...but after my telephone call with them I'm wondering if they just don't realize that the dye they sell is an aniline type dye. Never got the name of it to check it out.

Maybe ask for 'Spirit dye' - some assistants are not entirely up to speed.;)
The 5 litre dyes they sell are Sherwin Williams - the big American corp. To be honest you have set yourself a hard task - at the very least having spray facilities would give the optimum result for the dye and topcoat. I still think using the same laminate flooring on the stair treads with a solid wood surround would give you an identical match. It could be replaced easily in a few years if showing signs of wear.

rampantbunny

recipio wrote: »

Maybe ask for 'Spirit dye' - some assistants are not entirely up to speed.;)
The 5 litre dyes they sell are Sherwin Williams - the big American corp. To be honest you have set yourself a hard task - at the very least having spray facilities would give the optimum result for the dye and topcoat. I still think using the same laminate flooring on the stair treads with a solid wood surround would give you an identical match. It could be replaced easily in a few years if showing signs of wear.

I rang them back and asked for the name of the dye they did stock...was told it was Sherwin Williams but didn't catch the particular product (think granite or something similar sounding). This was a different sales man, and he again said, Nope, we've never stocked aniline.

Yea, the task could be difficult alright but the reward will be great (hopefully).
I'm not confident enough that we'd get good joints if trying to incorporate the wood flooring. Can't see us getting the cuts good enough at corners...will chat to my helper about it though.

recipio

rampantbunny wrote: »

I rang them back and asked for the name of the dye they did stock...was told it was Sherwin Williams but didn't catch the particular product (think granite or something similar sounding). This was a different sales man, and he again said, Nope, we've never stocked aniline.

Yea, the task could be difficult alright but the reward will be great (hopefully).
I'm not confident enough that we'd get good joints if trying to incorporate the wood flooring. Can't see us getting the cuts good enough at corners...will chat to my helper about it though.

To be fair, aniline dyes are soluble in water as well as spirits so I think its down to the actual product on sale.
Not sure about the joints with the laminate - edge to edge should be almost invisible but you would need a sharp blade for crosscutting.I think the pros use a guillotine for that reason.? You would have to 'wrap' a tread with something on the edges to conceal the two tone look - a definite downside.

tabby aspreme

rampantbunny wrote: »

Was in touch with MRCB in Dublin. Spoke to a gentleman there who told me that I'd have to mix different shades of the powdered aniline together to get the color I wanted, like brown, yellow, red, black. Plus the advice was to mix enough in one batch to ensure no color difference between one blend and the next i.e. do the whole lot in one go. I asked if they did pre-mixed batches themselves such as a 'dark-oak' and he said no.

TA, have you bought from them before? And if yes, did you get blended colors?
I also mentioned getting a 'wiping stain' to which he said, 'never heard of such a thing'. I said 'how about a stain you wipe on' and was told I'd need to be more specific - fair enough I suppose.


The restoration materials site in the UK sell blended powder mixes @ £12 each not including delivery. I might get some off them just see.

I would have got both , walnut and rosewood, were the blends , the solid colors and Bismarck
brown which is actually yellow, I mainly used them on mahogany which was French polished and when mixed with meths could be added to the polish for tinting.
If you are going to try it, get walnut and black , mix the walnut at the recommended rate then add black till you get the shade you need, you will need to measure very accurately and keep to the ratios you decide on, if using meths don't heat it to speed up dissolving or it will ignite.

Sand the wood then dampen it with a cloth and sand again before applying the stain .

What you are trying to achieve is not easy as you are trying to get a natural material to match an artificial one, practice plenty and enjoy.

rampantbunny

tabby aspreme wrote: »

I would have got both , walnut and rosewood, were the blends , the solid colors and Bismarck
brown which is actually yellow, I mainly used them on mahogany which was French polished and when mixed with meths could be added to the polish for tinting.
If you are going to try it, get walnut and black , mix the walnut at the recommended rate then add black till you get the shade you need, you will need to measure very accurately and keep to the ratios you decide on, if using meths don't heat it to speed up dissolving or it will ignite.

Sand the wood then dampen it with a cloth and sand again before applying the stain .

What you are trying to achieve is not easy as you are trying to get a natural material to match an artificial one, practice plenty and enjoy.

Cheers TA
I've ordered Dark Oak, Walnut, Mahogany from Restoration Materials. Didn't think to order black to darken..will see if any of the above come near to what I want then take it from there. I keep reading that light-fastness is not a strength of aniline dyes. The dyed material will be out of the direct sun but there will still be a decent amount of light cast on them..just not direct UV.

I also ordered a sample stain kit from Chestnut (UK)...the Chestnut Spirit Stain Samples - Wood Colours basically. Obviously not an aniline dye but I'm curious to see what they bring to the table.

If it comes to it, I wouldn't cry if the grain in the wood is not fully preserved in all it's glory. A more uniform look on the end product is fine for us as you can't actually see a grain in the floor unless you catch it with light at just the right angle.

I've a few pieces of white oak coming next week from joinery. Hopefully the dye comes soon after and the begins the experimentation.

tabby aspreme

While you're at it spend a fiver on a pack of steel wool and a bottle of vinegar, stuff some of the steel wool into a jam jar and fill it with the vinegar, leave it to soak for a few days, then brush it onto the oak and see the color change by the following day.

rampantbunny

tabby aspreme wrote: »

While you're at it spend a fiver on a pack of steel wool and a bottle of vinegar, stuff some of the steel wool into a jam jar and fill it with the vinegar, leave it to soak for a few days, then brush it onto the oak and see the color change by the following day.

That's the ebonising approach isn't it?...watched a few interesting videos of it last week including one where tea was used to increase the tannin levels of the wood.
Thought about using it to initially darken the wood, then use the aniline on top to see what it would look like. There's so many avenues a person could go down..not forgetting the ammonia route also. If a person had the time I'm sure it would be enjoyable.