My Idea for Dublin Rail Network and New National City Centre Train Station

coolmangg

The opportunity is currently available to amalgamate Dublin Connolly & Heuston Stations in one new National Rail Station at the Docklands.
Irish Rail currently owns the large land-bank at the existing Docklands Station which is currently only used for M3 Parkway services at peak hours.
There is a golden opportunity to create a single National Train Station in the heart of the city that would facilitate every Dublin Intercity & Commuter Rail destination from a central location.

Figure 1 Shows the location of the proposed station within the north inner city, and the connections to the existing railway network.

Figure 2 Shows a birds eye view of the station area with the connections to the existing network.

Figure 3 Shows how the overall rail transport network could operate within Dublin City centre with the new central station in operation.

This New Station would have significant benefits as follows;
- Centrally located within the city centre, and IFSC, with a large catchment area
- Connected to nearby Luas Red Line @ Spencer Dock
- Will be connected to future Dart Underground link to St Stephens Green &
Pearse St
- Has simple existing connections to
o Belfast Line
o Sligo Line
o Dart 2, (Maynooth / M3 Parkway)
o Galway Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Cork Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Limerick Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Waterford Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Westport / Ballina Lines (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
- A simple retrofit via a new bridge will allow connection to the Wexford line
- Close to the existing Dart 1 line, with possible pedestrian connection to it
- Possible quick link to Dublin Airport via the proposed Metro North or Clongriffin Spur
- Very limited works required on the lines to facilitate the station, very few line crossings / signals required to optimise capacity
- Maximises the potential of the existing infrastructure that Irish Rail owns
- There is an opportunity to have 2 platform levels to allow more platforms if
required. Similar to many continental stations
- Possibility to incorporate a new Bus Eireann station onsite to facilitate Rail /
Bus interchange
- Interchange with Dublin Bus / Taxi possible from Sherriff Street
- Down-grade Heuston Station & develop lands to finance
- Make Connolly Station smaller, & develop lands to finance
- Opportunity to sell air rights over the station for residential / retail / office to finance
- City Centre Stations have been abandoned / sold off in the past (Broadstone Harcourt St so why not now in the 21st Century?
- Opportunity to have a magnificent new concourse similar to an Airport
- Opportunity to create a brand new, custom made world class transport hub of international standard for Dublin & Ireland
- Bring Public Transport in Ireland into the modern age
- Opportunity to show that we are serious about quality public transport in Ireland
- Develops an unused neglected part of the inner city with spin off that will
regenerate the whole area
- Will bring much needed life into the north inner city
- Will create jobs
- Prove to people that Irish Rail have Real Vision and that they are ambitious

Drumcondra Station Upgrade

Some alterations would need to be made to the network around Drumcondra to unleash the full benefits of the new station. Figure 4 shows how the Drumcomdra Station would operate.

The existing Drumcondra station would provide an interchange between intercity trains coming from the west / south with the proposed Metro North underground station. This would allow passengers travelling from the west / south access to Dublin Airport with 1 change.

The Dart 2 / Sligo line could also interchange with the Metro North in the same station but via the existing southern line in Drumcondra. This would also allow passengers travelling from the Sligo Line access to Dublin Airport with 1 change. A new Drumcondra station would be constructed on Witworth Road for the Dart 2 services for this purpose. Allowing for easy rail connections between our major cities and Dublin Airport would increase patronage significantly.

Around Glasnevin
Figure 5 shows how the network would work around the Glasnevin / Cabra area. A new station in Phibsborough would allow Dart 2 Trains to serve this busy Dublin Suburb. A new Station could be built in Cabra to serve the large catchment. As shown on the figure, Southern and Western trains would pass through the recently upgraded Phoenix Park Tunnel and onto the new Dublin City Station. Sligo Trains would be segregated from South / West trains also but would all terminate in the new Dublin City Station.

All of these lines are grade separated and segregated which will maximise capacity and frequency of trains even through the Phoenix Park Tunnel section. Signalling of the lines would be relatively straight forward. This combined with the 4 tracking of the line west of Heuston station would ensure enough capacity on the lines. Platform 10 in Heuston Station could be upgraded to allow an interchange with the Luas red Line.

CONCLUSION
Currently the Government and Irish Rail are not doing enough to encourage public transport use by rail in Ireland. The current Government show no long term ambition for Public Transport Infrastructure.
To really encourage public transport use and get a modal shift from the private car, serious investment needs to be made in the network. This investment however should deliver maximum value for money, by using existing infrastructure to its full potential.

The plan of the future rail network in Dublin that I have outlined makes best use of the existing infrastructure we have, while showing real ambition and which would make huge leaps towards providing a fully integrated efficient network. I believe the network I have outlined would generate significant passenger increases both on commuter and intercity lines.

The outlined network is fully scalable, and could be constructed on a phased basis. The plan uses the entire existing network and requires very little new infrastructure which in turn would keep the construction costs low. Very little land would be required for its’ implementation, and rental income from the proposed station would go to offset these costs.

The network could also be amended to work even without Metro North or the Dart Interconnector projects. These could be added in time.

Much of Dublin is not close to rail based transport and areas that are close are provided with poor services and a poor network choice. Poor interchange with Luas / Dublin Bus / Bus Eireann.

I do recognise that there is a significant lack of Government funding for these items right now, however we should plan for the future and make sure that we do not make decisions now that would impede their future implementation. It is time we brought Ireland’s rail infrastructure into the 21st Century. Investing in infrastructure now will pay dividends for the coming generations, and encourage a divestment from the private motor car, which in turn will help to mitigate climate change.

MGWR

The opportunity is currently available to amalgamate Dublin Connolly & Heuston Stations in one new National Rail Station at the Docklands …

"Amalgamation" does not solve any problems and slows things down. And pushing the railways further away from the city centre will kill the city centre.

No railway expansion? The focus on Luas versus Metro (DART-based would have been ideal, for the purposes of run-through and no duplication of facilities and rolling stock/spare parts inventories) has been a disaster for traffic and travel options. And adding stations on existing lines slows down average speed.

Thrashssacre

The plan has some merit but the phoenix park tunnel and glasnevin junction would ultimately become two horrendous choke points grinding the network to a halt at peak times almost daily

monument

I'm going to post the images attached to the opening post to give people clarity on the suggestion:

Grandeeod

coolmangg wrote: »

The opportunity is currently available to amalgamate Dublin Connolly & Heuston Stations in one new National Rail Station at the Docklands.
Irish Rail currently owns the large land-bank at the existing Docklands Station which is currently only used for M3 Parkway services at peak hours.
There is a golden opportunity to create a single National Train Station in the heart of the city that would facilitate every Dublin Intercity & Commuter Rail destination from a central location.

Figure 1 Shows the location of the proposed station within the north inner city, and the connections to the existing railway network.

Figure 2 Shows a birds eye view of the station area with the connections to the existing network.

Figure 3 Shows how the overall rail transport network could operate within Dublin City centre with the new central station in operation.

This New Station would have significant benefits as follows;
- Centrally located within the city centre, and IFSC, with a large catchment area
- Connected to nearby Luas Red Line @ Spencer Dock
- Will be connected to future Dart Underground link to St Stephens Green &
Pearse St
- Has simple existing connections to
o Belfast Line
o Sligo Line
o Dart 2, (Maynooth / M3 Parkway)
o Galway Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Cork Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Limerick Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Waterford Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Westport / Ballina Lines (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
- A simple retrofit via a new bridge will allow connection to the Wexford line
- Close to the existing Dart 1 line, with possible pedestrian connection to it
- Possible quick link to Dublin Airport via the proposed Metro North or Clongriffin Spur
- Very limited works required on the lines to facilitate the station, very few line crossings / signals required to optimise capacity
- Maximises the potential of the existing infrastructure that Irish Rail owns
- There is an opportunity to have 2 platform levels to allow more platforms if
required. Similar to many continental stations
- Possibility to incorporate a new Bus Eireann station onsite to facilitate Rail /
Bus interchange
- Interchange with Dublin Bus / Taxi possible from Sherriff Street
- Down-grade Heuston Station & develop lands to finance
- Make Connolly Station smaller, & develop lands to finance
- Opportunity to sell air rights over the station for residential / retail / office to finance
- City Centre Stations have been abandoned / sold off in the past (Broadstone Harcourt St so why not now in the 21st Century?
- Opportunity to have a magnificent new concourse similar to an Airport
- Opportunity to create a brand new, custom made world class transport hub of international standard for Dublin & Ireland
- Bring Public Transport in Ireland into the modern age
- Opportunity to show that we are serious about quality public transport in Ireland
- Develops an unused neglected part of the inner city with spin off that will
regenerate the whole area
- Will bring much needed life into the north inner city
- Will create jobs
- Prove to people that Irish Rail have Real Vision and that they are ambitious

Drumcondra Station Upgrade

Some alterations would need to be made to the network around Drumcondra to unleash the full benefits of the new station. Figure 4 shows how the Drumcomdra Station would operate.

The existing Drumcondra station would provide an interchange between intercity trains coming from the west / south with the proposed Metro North underground station. This would allow passengers travelling from the west / south access to Dublin Airport with 1 change.

The Dart 2 / Sligo line could also interchange with the Metro North in the same station but via the existing southern line in Drumcondra. This would also allow passengers travelling from the Sligo Line access to Dublin Airport with 1 change. A new Drumcondra station would be constructed on Witworth Road for the Dart 2 services for this purpose. Allowing for easy rail connections between our major cities and Dublin Airport would increase patronage significantly.

Around Glasnevin
Figure 5 shows how the network would work around the Glasnevin / Cabra area. A new station in Phibsborough would allow Dart 2 Trains to serve this busy Dublin Suburb. A new Station could be built in Cabra to serve the large catchment. As shown on the figure, Southern and Western trains would pass through the recently upgraded Phoenix Park Tunnel and onto the new Dublin City Station. Sligo Trains would be segregated from South / West trains also but would all terminate in the new Dublin City Station.

All of these lines are grade separated and segregated which will maximise capacity and frequency of trains even through the Phoenix Park Tunnel section. Signalling of the lines would be relatively straight forward. This combined with the 4 tracking of the line west of Heuston station would ensure enough capacity on the lines. Platform 10 in Heuston Station could be upgraded to allow an interchange with the Luas red Line.

CONCLUSION
Currently the Government and Irish Rail are not doing enough to encourage public transport use by rail in Ireland. The current Government show no long term ambition for Public Transport Infrastructure.
To really encourage public transport use and get a modal shift from the private car, serious investment needs to be made in the network. This investment however should deliver maximum value for money, by using existing infrastructure to its full potential.

The plan of the future rail network in Dublin that I have outlined makes best use of the existing infrastructure we have, while showing real ambition and which would make huge leaps towards providing a fully integrated efficient network. I believe the network I have outlined would generate significant passenger increases both on commuter and intercity lines.

The outlined network is fully scalable, and could be constructed on a phased basis. The plan uses the entire existing network and requires very little new infrastructure which in turn would keep the construction costs low. Very little land would be required for its’ implementation, and rental income from the proposed station would go to offset these costs.

The network could also be amended to work even without Metro North or the Dart Interconnector projects. These could be added in time.

Much of Dublin is not close to rail based transport and areas that are close are provided with poor services and a poor network choice. Poor interchange with Luas / Dublin Bus / Bus Eireann.

I do recognise that there is a significant lack of Government funding for these items right now, however we should plan for the future and make sure that we do not make decisions now that would impede their future implementation. It is time we brought Ireland’s rail infrastructure into the 21st Century. Investing in infrastructure now will pay dividends for the coming generations, and encourage a divestment from the private motor car, which in turn will help to mitigate climate change.

Be careful OP, something very similar was suggested 12 years ago by a particular individual. The only difference back then was that both Heuston and Connolly were downsized (their train sheds) but retained a service. Another difference was that Spencer Dock (you refer to it as Docklands) had an undeveloped river front site (Spencer Dock South and now the site of the Conference centre and PWC buildings.) that was the proposed terminus. It also made use of both lines to a remodelled Glasnevin junction. Furthermore development could have been built over the new rail terminus. A good idea. Too late now. Spencer dock north is wrapped up in all kinds of legal muck at this stage.

Vic_08

The PPT line is slow and 2 track with no ability to change either problem, you would be adding 15mns to inter-city trains and still dumping passengers well away from the city centre as well as severely constraining the capacity in that direction.

The station on the lower line at Drumcondra is not viable, the line is hemmed in between the canal and Whitworth Road, there is no room to build a station there.

You can't just knock down Connolly and sell the land for development, it's protected. Same goes for Busaras which is not owned by CIE anyway but OPW for DSP.

Best solution for connecting Heuston line services is DU, fast train to Heuston, frequent DU to city centre. PPT isn't useless but it is not appropriate for that sort of intense mixed use.

Grandeeod

Vic_08 wrote: »

The PPT line is slow and 2 track with no ability to change either problem, you would be adding 15mns to inter-city trains and still dumping passengers well away from the city centre.

Lots of assumtions there and no doubt based on the usual CIE BS thats been spouted for years.

"Dumping passengers well away from the city centre"

Seriously, you still believe that Heuston is the City Centre? You still think that Connolly as it stands is close to anything in particular that makes it different to Spencer Dock? Come on. This 15 minute argument is tiresome. Its as if the Heuston argument is based on it being easily accessible despite CIE charging extra to get to the "city centre".

EDIT: Im referring to Connolly as an IC station.

average_runner

Grandeeod wrote: »

Lots of assumtions there and no doubt based on the usual CIE BS thats been spouted for years.

"Dumping passengers well away from the city centre"

Seriously, you still believe that Heuston is the City Centre? You still think that Connolly as it stands is close to anything in particular that makes it different to Spencer Dock? Come on. This 15 minute argument is tiresome. Its as if the Heuston argument is based on it being easily accessible despite CIE charging extra to get to the "city centre".

Connolly is a great location. Right in city centre serves ifsc and city. Two minutes walk to alot of offices towards o'connell Street.

Grandeeod

average_runner wrote: »

Connolly is a great location. Right in city centre serves ifsc and city. Two minutes walk to alot of offices towards o'connell Street.

I know and if you read my response to the OP, I pointed out the differences to proposals made years ago. To put it bluntly, keep platforms 5, 6 and 7 in Connolly. Shut the trainshed and transfer Belfast, and Sligo to a new build in Spencer Dock. The OP's post hasn't thought it out enough. Technically every IC route bar Rosslare could have been transfered to a new site in Spencer Dock. But this is all fantasy stuff anyway and mired in poor development arrangements with CIE.

Vic_08

Grandeeod wrote: »

Lots of assumtions there and no doubt based on the usual CIE BS thats been spouted for years.

"Dumping passengers well away from the city centre"

That is some epic selective quoting there. I said STILL dumping...

Grandeeod wrote: »

Seriously, you still believe that Heuston is the City Centre?

You are just making sh!t up now. Find one post in the entirety of my postings on boards that even vaguely suggests I think any such thing, go on try it.

Grandeeod wrote: »

You still think that Connolly as it stands is close to anything in particular that makes it different to Spencer Dock?

It is about 10 mns walking distance closer to everything West of Amiens St. which includes all of the city centre. (and no, for the avoidance of doubt I am not including Heuston, Rialto, the Phoenix Park or Tallaght in "city centre")

Grandeeod wrote: »

Come on. This 15 minute argument is tiresome.

Ignoring facts is tiresome or are you suggesting Islandbridge to Docklands would be just as quick as Islandbridge to Heuston?

Grandeeod wrote: »

Its as if the Heuston argument is based on it being easily accessible despite CIE charging extra to get to the "city centre".

Did I say it was easily accessible? No, that is why I said using high frequency DU to connect Heuston to the CITY CENTRE would be the best solution.

Grandeeod

Read above. You are just looking for a row. Not interested.

ChikiChiki

Good post OP. At least someone is thinking forward. Anything is better than existing rail set up. I commend you on the effort put into your proposal.

newacc2015

Vic_08 wrote: »

The station on the lower line at Drumcondra is not viable, the line is hemmed in between the canal and Whitworth Road, there is no room to build a station there.

Flattened whatever generic 1900s housing is already there and build a station. Just because something is red brick doesnt mean it is worth saving.

Vic_08 wrote: »

You can't just knock down Connolly and sell the land for development, it's protected. Same goes for Busaras which is not owned by CIE anyway but OPW for DSP.

You dont have to knock Connolly. Just save the walls, set back the development and build up. Or just dig down a few floors. Airbnb has new HQ in a former warehouse. Offices that close to the IFSC would easily for around €500-650 sq m per year let.

No one would want to knock Busaras as its iconic. Plus its quite highrise for the area. Save the exterior and gut the inside.

n97 mini

Nice post OP!

newacc2015 wrote: »

No one would want to knock Busaras as its iconic. Plus its quite highrise for the area. Save the exterior and gut the inside.

Seriously? It's in the same architectural category as Apollo House!

monument

@ Grandeeod and Vic_08 -- you could both make those points without going ott or making uncivil comments.

Everyone: Please note of the forum announcement and updated charter -- no extra warnings will be given.

-- moderator

Zebra3

One simple change I could never understand not being made was having Wexford trains terminate at the old platforms 1&2 in Pearse.

Have them out of the way while they're waiting to be loaded, takes them off the loop line, and Pearse is as much city centre as Connolly.

Sam Russell

Why not have the Wexford trains terminate at Bray, with a waiting Dart continue the journey with the same stopping pattern. The reverse would work with the 'Wexford' Dart pulling into platform 2 in Bray with passengers crossing the platform onto a waiting Wexford train.

GerardKeating

MGWR wrote: »

"Amalgamation" does not solve any problems and slows things down. And pushing the railways further away from the city centre will kill the city centre.

some might say this is closer to Centre that Hueston.

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why not have the Wexford trains terminate at Bray, with a waiting Dart continue the journey with the same stopping pattern. The reverse would work with the 'Wexford' Dart pulling into platform 2 in Bray with passengers crossing the platform onto a waiting Wexford train.

If you were going to do this, you could have the change at Greystones, but the Wexford service is slow and infrequent already, if you added in a change onto a (slightly) slower Dart it would probably kill it altogether.

McAlban

n97 mini wrote: »

Nice post OP!

Seriously? It's in the same architectural category as Apollo House!

It's a fine example of International Modern Style, unfortunately not as well maintained as it should be by OPW/CIE/DSP.

Apollo house is on the other hand a horrific piece of Architecture and beyond redemption.

end of the road

Zebra3 wrote: »

One simple change I could never understand not being made was having Wexford trains terminate at the old platforms 1&2 in Pearse.

Have them out of the way while they're waiting to be loaded, takes them off the loop line, and Pearse is as much city centre as Connolly.

because the majority of people on those trains want to go to connolly. the only thing that would be achieved by terminating them short is annoying people and turning them away from the service.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why not have the Wexford trains terminate at Bray, with a waiting Dart continue the journey with the same stopping pattern. The reverse would work with the 'Wexford' Dart pulling into platform 2 in Bray with passengers crossing the platform onto a waiting Wexford train.

because with the greatest of respect it's a pointless idea that would only annoy people and drive them away from the service all for no reason as the dart would be doing the exact same thing as the direct train could have done. the users would be getting nothing in return for this idea.

magicbastarder

end of the road wrote: »

because with the greatest of respect it's a pointless idea that would only annoy people and drive them away from the service all for no reason as the dart would be doing the exact same thing as the direct train could have done. the users would be getting nothing in return for this idea.

surely it's a common thing to have to change trains? how many passengers is that train carrying between bray and connolly?

end of the road

magicbastarder wrote: »

surely it's a common thing to have to change trains? how many passengers is that train carrying between bray and connolly?

not in ireland unless you are going from somewhere on 1 line to somewhere on another. or the couple of services such as limerick and tralee which actually get something in return for having to change trains (the cork reasonably fast service)
in the case of what was suggested for services from wexford, there would be nothing to be gained and the passengers would get nothing in return. so, as i stated above, it would be a waste of everyones time even entertaining the suggestion.

n97 mini

While I wouldn't have an issue with terminating Wexford trains south of Connolly if it was for the greater good, I'm not sure they're frequent enough to gain anything from it.

patrickbrophy18

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why not have the Wexford trains terminate at Bray, with a waiting Dart continue the journey with the same stopping pattern. The reverse would work with the 'Wexford' Dart pulling into platform 2 in Bray with passengers crossing the platform onto a waiting Wexford train.

I don't agree with this idea at all as it would be the final nail in the coffin for the train line. I still believe that this rail service could be resuscitated in time. However, in order to generate as much viability as possible, a lot of key towns would have to prioritize significant growth of their respective populations. In other words, the town-lands of Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy and Wexford would have to experience a population growth which, at a minimum, would align them with towns such as Portmarnock, Drogheda, Dundalk and Newry. Ideally, this would restore the balance of demand for train services between the Northern Commuter and South Eastern Commuter lines.

Unfortunately, the design of the Connolly to Rosslare Route is self limiting from a practicality perspective for the following reasons:

1. From Bray southwards, the railway is mostly single-track. This puts serious limitations on the speed of Commuter and Intercity trains due to the fact that they have to yield to each other at stations with passing loops.
2. You have the track along Bray Head which is very vulnerable to landslides and with a huge drop on coastal side of it, the driver of the train is forced to be extra vigilant speed-wise.
3. The hilly nature of the countryside which it passes through makes it very difficult to carry out any possible future double tracking. The track is also tightly bound by land on large stretches.
4. Point 3 is further exacerbated by the fact that the bulk of bridges carrying the route are not wide enough for the provision of a second track. The only way to address this would be to have twin bridges at each crossing point. This would more than likely require the demolition of buildings and/or the re-alignment of adjacent roads.
5. At Enniscorthy, there is a very tight pinch point where the train passes beneath a single track tunnel between Island Road to the north and Maudlin's Folly to the south.
6. The track through the highly pedestrian nature of Wexford Town turns the service into a glorified Luas.

Having said all of that and while addressing each point would be very difficult, it is NOT impossible.


Anyway, back to the main topic. Thanks for your designs OP. If only we had more people like yourself in government, we would get a lot more done. It's a very valid idea given that the looped nature of the rail system you propose essentially makes it the M50 of railway services.

n97 mini

McAlban wrote: »

It's a fine example of International Modern Style, unfortunately not as well maintained as it should be by OPW/CIE/DSP.

Apollo house is on the other hand a horrific piece of Architecture and beyond redemption.

It's an example, not a fine one. It make my eyes bleed and I'm sure its day will come!

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

While I wouldn't have an issue with terminating Wexford trains south of Connolly if it was for the greater good, I'm not sure they're frequent enough to gain anything from it.

even if they were frequent they're still wouldn't be anything to gain from the suggestion. you would simply be implementing a nucence that would piss off people all for nothing in return, likely ending up in driving away much if not all of the traffic.

Zebra3

end of the road wrote: »

because the majority of people on those trains want to go to connolly. the only thing that would be achieved by terminating them short is annoying people and turning them away from the service.

Was there a survey done that showed this up?

end of the road

Zebra3 wrote: »

Was there a survey done that showed this up?

it really doesn't matter considering the reality is that the suggestion made brings no benefit to the users of the service. being a long time user of the line i can frankly say this to be the case. if i thought it would be a benefit i'd support it.

Zebra3

end of the road wrote: »

it really doesn't matter considering the reality is that the suggestion made brings no benefit to the users of the service. being a long time user of the line i can frankly say this to be the case. if i thought it would be a benefit i'd support it.

So your claim that a majority want to go to Connolly is completely unfounded then?

L1011

In addition to busaras not being owned by CIE, there are already plans to begin construction on Connolly's carpark and bits of yards etc - certain offices are moving to Heuston. Funding won't be coming from flogging off either.

Sam Russell

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I don't agree with this idea at all as it would be the final nail in the coffin for the train line. I still believe that this rail service could be resuscitated in time. However, in order to generate as much viability as possible, a lot of key towns would have to prioritize significant growth of their respective populations. In other words, the town-lands of Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy and Wexford would have to experience a population growth which, at a minimum, would align them with towns such as Portmarnock, Drogheda, Dundalk and Newry. Ideally, this would restore the balance of demand for train services between the Northern Commuter and South Eastern Commuter lines.

Unfortunately, the design of the Connolly to Rosslare Route is self limiting from a practicality perspective for the following reasons:

1. From Bray southwards, the railway is mostly single-track. This puts serious limitations on the speed of Commuter and Intercity trains due to the fact that they have to yield to each other at stations with passing loops.
2. You have the track along Bray Head which is very vulnerable to landslides and with a huge drop on coastal side of it, the driver of the train is forced to be extra vigilant speed-wise.
3. The hilly nature of the countryside which it passes through makes it very difficult to carry out any possible future double tracking. The track is also tightly bound by land on large stretches.
4. Point 3 is further exacerbated by the fact that the bulk of bridges carrying the route are not wide enough for the provision of a second track. The only way to address this would be to have twin bridges at each crossing point. This would more than likely require the demolition of buildings and/or the re-alignment of adjacent roads.
5. At Enniscorthy, there is a very tight pinch point where the train passes beneath a single track tunnel between Island Road to the north and Maudlin's Folly to the south.
6. The track through the highly pedestrian nature of Wexford Town turns the service into a glorified Luas.

Having said all of that and while addressing each point would be very difficult, it is NOT impossible.

The benefit of terminating at Bray is to increase the level of service between Bray and Wexford. The first train from Bray to Wexford does not leave till after 10:17 am, and does not arrive in Wexford till after midday. However, the first trains from Gorey/Wexford arrives at 7am, 8am and 9:30.

There is no service from Dublin to Wexford that arrives in the morning. By turning the train at Bray, two serviced could arrive in Wexford before Midday and possible three.

The current service is skewed towards commuters into Dublin, with no useful service the other way. There is a ferry port at the end of the line.

end of the road

Zebra3 wrote: »

So your claim that a majority want to go to Connolly is completely unfounded then?

no . anyway, no point in going around in circles. i'm telling those who made the suggestion as a long term user of the line that it isn't viable and would achieve nothing but cause people to move away from the service. whether they accept the information or not is their problem, i'm only the messenger.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The benefit of terminating at Bray is to increase the level of service between Bray and Wexford. The first train from Bray to Wexford does not leave till after 10:17 am, and does not arrive in Wexford till after midday. However, the first trains from Gorey/Wexford arrives at 7am, 8am and 9:30.

There is no service from Dublin to Wexford that arrives in the morning. By turning the train at Bray, two serviced could arrive in Wexford before Midday and possible three.

The current service is skewed towards commuters into Dublin, with no useful service the other way. There is a ferry port at the end of the line.

but would be removing direct trains and assuming we are still running with the limited stop dart idea, taking away an EMU and capacity from the stations in between. + the trains on the wexford line would have to run to droghida for maintenence anyway, so you don't actually remove them rather they will just run empty instead. if IE wanted to increase frequency on the line they would more then likely find a way around the dart issue, remember we got the same excuses back before we moved from 3 trains a day so it is doable if the will was there, which sadly it isn't.

ClovenHoof

It is a fantastic idea and I commend the OP on this proposal. The underground pedestrian walkway in Drumcondra is genius.

As for the congestion issue, signalling can take care of this.


Won't happen as 'Capital Investment' in Ireland just means giving huge pay raises to Civil Servants and Semi-State Unions so they can buy overseas property and rental investments at home. Maybe the homeless around the proposed locations can sleep on the piles of unread glossy brochures the DoT prints up for the next Rail Plan they have no intention of building.

magicbastarder

end of the road wrote: »

no . anyway, no point in going around in circles. i'm telling those who made the suggestion as a long term user of the line that it isn't viable and would achieve nothing but cause people to move away from the service. whether they accept the information or not is their problem, i'm only the messenger.

you're not offering much except 'i think it's a bad idea and you're wrong if you disagree with me'.
speaking as someone who is interested but relatively ignorant of the factors at play, you're not doing a great job of explaining the drawbacks.

n97 mini

magicbastarder wrote: »

you're not offering much except 'i think it's a bad idea and you're wrong if you disagree with me'.
speaking as someone who is interested but relatively ignorant of the factors at play, you're not doing a great job of explaining the drawbacks.

Personally, if to gain a few more customers you had to lose/inconvenience a few elsewhere I'd consider that for the greater good and wouldn't have an issue. Some people are only concerned with their own service levels though.

Logue no2

coolmangg wrote: »

The opportunity is currently available to amalgamate Dublin Connolly & Heuston Stations in one new National Rail Station at the Docklands.
Irish Rail currently owns the large land-bank at the existing Docklands Station which is currently only used for M3 Parkway services at peak hours.
There is a golden opportunity to create a single National Train Station in the heart of the city that would facilitate every Dublin Intercity & Commuter Rail destination from a central location.

Figure 1 Shows the location of the proposed station within the north inner city, and the connections to the existing railway network.

Figure 2 Shows a birds eye view of the station area with the connections to the existing network.

Figure 3 Shows how the overall rail transport network could operate within Dublin City centre with the new central station in operation.

This New Station would have significant benefits as follows;
- Centrally located within the city centre, and IFSC, with a large catchment area
- Connected to nearby Luas Red Line @ Spencer Dock
- Will be connected to future Dart Underground link to St Stephens Green &
Pearse St
- Has simple existing connections to
o Belfast Line
o Sligo Line
o Dart 2, (Maynooth / M3 Parkway)
o Galway Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Cork Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Limerick Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Waterford Line (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
o Westport / Ballina Lines (Via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
- A simple retrofit via a new bridge will allow connection to the Wexford line
- Close to the existing Dart 1 line, with possible pedestrian connection to it
- Possible quick link to Dublin Airport via the proposed Metro North or Clongriffin Spur
- Very limited works required on the lines to facilitate the station, very few line crossings / signals required to optimise capacity
- Maximises the potential of the existing infrastructure that Irish Rail owns
- There is an opportunity to have 2 platform levels to allow more platforms if
required. Similar to many continental stations
- Possibility to incorporate a new Bus Eireann station onsite to facilitate Rail /
Bus interchange
- Interchange with Dublin Bus / Taxi possible from Sherriff Street
- Down-grade Heuston Station & develop lands to finance
- Make Connolly Station smaller, & develop lands to finance
- Opportunity to sell air rights over the station for residential / retail / office to finance
- City Centre Stations have been abandoned / sold off in the past (Broadstone Harcourt St so why not now in the 21st Century?
- Opportunity to have a magnificent new concourse similar to an Airport
- Opportunity to create a brand new, custom made world class transport hub of international standard for Dublin & Ireland
- Bring Public Transport in Ireland into the modern age
- Opportunity to show that we are serious about quality public transport in Ireland
- Develops an unused neglected part of the inner city with spin off that will
regenerate the whole area
- Will bring much needed life into the north inner city
- Will create jobs
- Prove to people that Irish Rail have Real Vision and that they are ambitious

Drumcondra Station Upgrade

Some alterations would need to be made to the network around Drumcondra to unleash the full benefits of the new station. Figure 4 shows how the Drumcomdra Station would operate.

The existing Drumcondra station would provide an interchange between intercity trains coming from the west / south with the proposed Metro North underground station. This would allow passengers travelling from the west / south access to Dublin Airport with 1 change.

The Dart 2 / Sligo line could also interchange with the Metro North in the same station but via the existing southern line in Drumcondra. This would also allow passengers travelling from the Sligo Line access to Dublin Airport with 1 change. A new Drumcondra station would be constructed on Witworth Road for the Dart 2 services for this purpose. Allowing for easy rail connections between our major cities and Dublin Airport would increase patronage significantly.

Around Glasnevin
Figure 5 shows how the network would work around the Glasnevin / Cabra area. A new station in Phibsborough would allow Dart 2 Trains to serve this busy Dublin Suburb. A new Station could be built in Cabra to serve the large catchment. As shown on the figure, Southern and Western trains would pass through the recently upgraded Phoenix Park Tunnel and onto the new Dublin City Station. Sligo Trains would be segregated from South / West trains also but would all terminate in the new Dublin City Station.

All of these lines are grade separated and segregated which will maximise capacity and frequency of trains even through the Phoenix Park Tunnel section. Signalling of the lines would be relatively straight forward. This combined with the 4 tracking of the line west of Heuston station would ensure enough capacity on the lines. Platform 10 in Heuston Station could be upgraded to allow an interchange with the Luas red Line.

CONCLUSION
Currently the Government and Irish Rail are not doing enough to encourage public transport use by rail in Ireland. The current Government show no long term ambition for Public Transport Infrastructure.
To really encourage public transport use and get a modal shift from the private car, serious investment needs to be made in the network. This investment however should deliver maximum value for money, by using existing infrastructure to its full potential.

The plan of the future rail network in Dublin that I have outlined makes best use of the existing infrastructure we have, while showing real ambition and which would make huge leaps towards providing a fully integrated efficient network. I believe the network I have outlined would generate significant passenger increases both on commuter and intercity lines.

The outlined network is fully scalable, and could be constructed on a phased basis. The plan uses the entire existing network and requires very little new infrastructure which in turn would keep the construction costs low. Very little land would be required for its’ implementation, and rental income from the proposed station would go to offset these costs.

The network could also be amended to work even without Metro North or the Dart Interconnector projects. These could be added in time.

Much of Dublin is not close to rail based transport and areas that are close are provided with poor services and a poor network choice. Poor interchange with Luas / Dublin Bus / Bus Eireann.

I do recognise that there is a significant lack of Government funding for these items right now, however we should plan for the future and make sure that we do not make decisions now that would impede their future implementation. It is time we brought Ireland’s rail infrastructure into the 21st Century. Investing in infrastructure now will pay dividends for the coming generations, and encourage a divestment from the private motor car, which in turn will help to mitigate climate change.

OP this is good work. I strongly suggest you submit this today to the NTA's Rail Review consultation as it finishes at 5pm today. Email your proposals to railconsultation@nationaltransport.ie

Grandeeod

Logue no2 wrote: »

OP this is good work. I strongly suggest you submit this today to the NTA's Rail Review consultation as it finishes at 5pm today. Email your proposals to railconsultation@nationaltransport.ie

IE don't own the site. CIE don't even own the site. They have a deal for a percentage of the sale price or a percentage of ground rent on future development. Johnny Ronan is back on the scene and he has hoovered up the rest of Spencer Dock south so its only a matter of time before Spencer Dock north finally goes into development.

For the record a proposal the same as the OPs was put to Treasury Holdings (the then developer) in the early 2000s. It was proposed that a central station be built on the site with development taking place on top of it. (an attempt to keep developers and transport parties both happy.) The answer was no.

Grandeeod

With all due respect and it pains me to say it, but what has the last few pages got to do with the original post???

BuffyBot

Posts regarding Wexford rail services/DART connections split to here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057694968

Grandeeod wrote: »

With all due respect and it pains me to say it, but what has the last few pages got to do with the original post???

With all due respect, I'm pretty sure you know how to report a lost. Harping on thread isn't it.

Grandeeod

So OP? Any chance you can give some feedback to the comments your post generated?

Elemonator

Too far from the city centre presently. Give it 50 years, the Docklands possibly be the new city centre, at least in a CBD sense.

Grandeeod

Elemonator wrote: »

Too far from the city centre presently. Give it 50 years, the Docklands possibly be the new city centre, at least in a CBD sense.

It doesn't matter. In 50 years it will be well built on. (not far to go now) If we see DU in there somewhere is anyones guess. We'll be lucky. But we will never see a new central station anywhere near this site. It would have been nice and sensible and even great and grandiose, like the OP described. However the idea was buried many years ago.

coolmangg

So just a quick response and clarification to some of the comments as I see it. Great to see a healthy response.

Location
As far as the station not being in the city centre, I disagree. Just because east of the site is not yet developed does not mean it is not in the city centre, whats-more, the connectivity that the site offers is its' main benefit. The proposed station (Docklands Station) would connect directly to O Connell St / Grafton St areas via Luas & DU.

The Docklands station is a far more city centre location than Heuston St is, and offers far more onward connectivity than Heuston ever could.

The main benefit as I see it from an intercity POV is the 1 change possibility to the airport. This would generate huge passenger numbers.

Routes
The development of the Docklands station and the revised network would only work if all of the routes were defined more, i.e. consistent, with a number / colour code. Every Dart 1 / 2 train should follow the same route and stop at the same stations. Every intercity train should be consistent and regular.

Phoenix Park Tunnel
The Phoenix Park Tunnel (PPT) has as much capacity as Heuston Station currently enjoys i.e. 2 lines (at its' least) there should be no issues in relation to capacity just because it is a tunnel.

The plan I have outlined envisages only intercity trains passing through the PPT thereby reducing constraints. Also the network I propose works in harmony with the DU rather than against it. Intercity / Dart 2 trains would separate outside Heuston (Grade Separated), from where the line would be 4 tracked westbound. See Figure 3.

When you account for the current time delay required to interchange between Heuston & Connolly Stations (via a crowded Luas) it will not take longer to travel to a new Docklands Station from the South / West. With the added benefit of an integrated network & the possible quick interchange to the Airport / Dart 1 & 2 etc, I know I would prefer to be on a train that goes via the PPT and left to a station where I can make easy onward connections.

The currently proposed DU does not connect Heuston with Connolly directly. It would require 2 changes to get from and intercity train in Heuston to an intercity train in Connolly (Cork - Belfast for example) as currently proposed. My plan would only require 1 change, indeed it would only require 1 change for the majority of trips.

Glasnevin Jct
The simplicity of the network outlined means that very little would need to be done to Glasnevin Jct. Sligo / PPT trains would be fully separated, meaning no restrictions due to signalling. See Figure 5

Drumcondra
It may look difficult to see how a second Drumcondra Station could be built on Witworth Rd, what with the tight retaining walls etc, but it is certainly possible with a little imagination. We have put a man on the moon after all.

Redevelop Heuston, Connolly & Busaras
I wouldn't propose to knock Heuston or Connolly Stations entirely, however they certainly could be redeveloped, made into office spaces etc.

Connolly Station would remain as an important station on the network and would still be accessible from the new Docklands Station. It would still be on the Dart 1 line.

Moving Busaras to the same site as the new station, would allow the ground floor of the existing Busaras to also be redeveloped. As we all know Busaras is too small for its needs, lets put it in a new modern building.

Ownership
The comment regarding the ownership of the dockland site (If True) is unfortunate, however as I was always told,
"It is never the wrong time to make the right decision"
This is true here, if enough political will is there, nothing is impossible. The site could be bought back, CPO'd etc.

Just because the idea was rejected in 2000 does not mean we should forget about it. A good idea is a good idea.
Things politically / culturally etc are very different now, what with climate change, and the slow realisation of the importance of public transport, even within government.

We need to be more positive, stop dwelling on the negative, and making excuses. If this is a good idea, it should be encouraged, not picked at. Rather than finding ways to destroy it, find ways to encourage it or improve it.
Get the idea out there, lobby for it. Think how great it could be.

Thanks

coolmangg

Grandeeod wrote: »

So OP? Any chance you can give some feedback to the comments your post generated?

Ha, you beat me to it.

Grandeeod

coolmangg wrote: »

Ownership
The comment regarding the ownership of the dockland site (If True) is unfortunate, however as I was always told,
"It is never the wrong time to make the right decision"
This is true here, if enough political will is there, nothing is impossible. The site could be bought back, CPO'd etc.

Just because the idea was rejected in 2000 does not mean we should forget about it. A good idea is a good idea.
Things politically / culturally etc are very different now, what with climate change, and the slow realisation of the importance of public transport, even within government.

We need to be more positive, stop dwelling on the negative, and making excuses. If this is a good idea, it should be encouraged, not picked at. Rather than finding ways to destroy it, find ways to encourage it or improve it.
Get the idea out there, lobby for it. Think how great it could be.

Thanks

Well unfortunately the ownership issue is the truth. Prior to Spencer Dock south being developed, many imagined a river facing central station serving inter city and commuter, combined with DU and residential and commercial development all around it and even over it. Fabulous. A new district both commercial and residential. A new Dublin. So that vision shifted to Spencer Dock north. (the site of docklands station) Glasnevin Junction was even involved in the mix with an underground DART branch to the airport. (represented as an option in the recent MN debacle.) But still the money men said no and they will continue to say no because nothing has changed and no amount of foresight from those that care can see any change. But it doesn't stop them robbing ideas to delay things.

Interestingly CIE and their shareholder at the time only cared about making some money from the site. Once again we see the toxic relationship between state and semi state. They don't care about rail transport. They have no vision. It's all about raising money from land to plug financial holes in CIE, so the state doesn't have to finance it with additional subsidy due to it's terrible record. The very idea of the land being beneficial to public transport flies over their heads. It's an embedded culture with these guys and all verifiable.

Fire away with the proposal if you have the enthusiasm and best of luck, but be prepared to come up against interests that are far more influential than you.

coolmangg

Grandeeod wrote: »

Well unfortunately the ownership issue is the truth. Prior to Spencer Dock south being developed, many imagined a river facing central station serving inter city and commuter, combined with DU and residential and commercial development all around it and even over it. Fabulous. A new district both commercial and residential. A new Dublin. So that vision shifted to Spencer Dock north. (the site of docklands station) Glasnevin Junction was even involved in the mix with an underground DART branch to the airport. (represented as an option in the recent MN debacle.) But still the money men said no and they will continue to say no because nothing has changed and no amount of foresight from those that care can see any change. But it doesn't stop them robbing ideas to delay things.

Interestingly CIE and their shareholder at the time only cared about making some money from the site. Once again we see the toxic relationship between state and semi state. They don't care about rail transport. They have no vision. It's all about raising money from land to plug financial holes in CIE, so the state doesn't have to finance it with additional subsidy due to it's terrible record. The very idea of the land being beneficial to public transport flies over their heads. It's an embedded culture with these guys and all verifiable.

Fire away with the proposal if you have the enthusiasm and best of luck, but be prepared to come up against interests that are far more influential than you.

Would love to see some old plans of this proposal if you knew where to get them?

Grandeeod

coolmangg wrote: »

Would love to see some old plans of this proposal if you knew where to get them?

They were on the old P11 website years back.

Infini

The idea is sound in theory but a spur off from connolly into it prolly wouldnt work if im not misaken theres a loco shed there and not alot of room. That being said tho there is some room for improvement at docklands if they could expand to the east a bit and build another platform for example they could run those hazelhatch services into docklands from the drumcondra line and throw in the DU it would work better than going through the rather packed loopline to GCD. Change there get a train to pease then change again for GCD and it would work better at least during on peak times.

That being said DU is really what needs to be built first in anycase pressure NEEDS to be taken off connolly that line is way too packed these days as it is!

hytrogen

Why is there not a dart connecting Spencer dock to grand canal dock if there's so much congestion? Especially during peak hours
Or a dart from Spencer to Heuston yet? I know the Luas does this but it is much slower than the main lines with the street traffic. Now that the phoenix tunnel is open?
If Dublin is meant to be the national transport hub then it should have more Interconnectivity within it and small initiatives like this would significantly increase the attractiveness for commutes to use public transport as such, then you can justify DU

end of the road

hytrogen wrote: »

Why is there not a dart connecting Spencer dock to grand canal dock if there's so much congestion? Especially during peak hours

i'm assuming you mean congestion on the railway? unfortunately such a service would likely add to this congestion if it was to happen. it's a good idea in theory though

hytrogen wrote: »

Or a dart from Spencer to Heuston yet? I know the Luas does this but it is much slower than the main lines with the street traffic. Now that the phoenix tunnel is open?

because the tunnel and heuston aren't electrified. i believe the tunnel has issues meaning it would be either difficult to electrify, or it can't be electrified, but i'm open to correction. to operate this service would require a diesel service which there actually isn't stock availible for. mind you they can find stock for the odd charter train.

hytrogen wrote: »

If Dublin is meant to be the national transport hub then it should have more Interconnectivity within it and small initiatives like this would significantly increase the attractiveness for commutes to use public transport as such, then you can justify DU

i would agree, all though as far as i'm concerned DU has all ready been justified decades ago. it's politics that is insuring it doesn't get built.