What type of kung fu that doesn't require to split?

Jull

Hi I'm Jull.
I'm 22 now and I wanna start to learn kung fu to defence. However, I'm really afraid to do the split! Just thinking about it makes me freaked out!
So I want to know what type of kung fu that I don't have to split my legs?

yomchi

Jull wrote: »

Hi I'm Jull.
I'm 22 now and I wanna start to learn kung fu to defence. However, I'm really afraid to do the split! Just thinking about it makes me freaked out!
So I want to know what type of kung fu that I don't have to split my legs?

No right thinking instructor would force you to attempt the splits. Some hip joints aren't designed to be able to do them.
In my opinion the side splits are probably the most irrelevant stretching exercise for martial arts.

cletus

I'd go one further yomchi, and say that no hip joint is designed to do the full splits

yomchi

cletus wrote: »

I'd go one further yomchi, and say that no hip joint is designed to do the full splits

Yeh! Actually that's more likely.

Nichololas

Jull wrote: »

Hi I'm Jull.
I'm 22 now and I wanna start to learn kung fu to defence. However, I'm really afraid to do the split! Just thinking about it makes me freaked out!
So I want to know what type of kung fu that I don't have to split my legs?

No one's going to make you do the splits.

You don't really ever need the splits (static flexibility) for martial arts, but having dynamic flexibility is good for high kicks. There are plenty of people who can high kick with a greater range than they can reach trying to get into the splits, bodies are weird like that.

If you can stand up straight and lift each leg out to the side at a 90 degree angle without discomfort (like propping your leg on a table or chair), then there's nothing in your hips physically stopping you from being able to do the splits. Actually getting down into the splits is another matter, as your nervous system will try and protect you from injuring yourself in a range of movement you're not familiar with.

Also, stretching yourself out in the splits feels pretty great.

And also, if you can do the splits you look like a certified bad-arse.

yomchi

Nichololas wrote: »

No one's going to make you do the splits.

You don't really ever need the splits (static flexibility) for martial arts, but having dynamic flexibility is good for high kicks. There are plenty of people who can high kick with a greater range than they can reach trying to get into the splits, bodies are weird like that.

If you can stand up straight and lift each leg out to the side at a 90 degree angle without discomfort (like propping your leg on a table or chair), then there's nothing in your hips physically stopping you from being able to do the splits. Actually getting down into the splits is another matter, as your nervous system will try and protect you from injuring yourself in a range of movement you're not familiar with.

Also, stretching yourself out in the splits feels pretty great.

And also, if you can do the splits you look like a certified bad-arse.

Yep, the old school mentality is alive and well with some clubs.

Nichololas

yomchi wrote: »

Yep, the old school mentality is alive and well with some clubs.

Well there's old school mentality and there's Pei Mei from Kill Bill.. No one's going to snatch your eyeball out if you don't want to do the splits. Just say 'No thanks', and walk out of the class.

However, I would put forward that at least one of the goals of learning a martial art is to expand the capabilities of your body. Barring some physical impediment or freakish emotional trauma related to performing the splits, I see no reason the OP should avoid it, even if only to confront and diminish his/her own unfounded fears..

cletus

Mostly because doing the full splits subluxes the hip joint.

Nichololas

Uhhh no, you don't dislocate your hip every time you do the splits.

If you do get a subluxation in your hip, you'll know it because it'll be painful and you won't be doing the splits for a while. You're also far more likely to get it from actually playing a sport than from stretching.

cletus

Normal range of motion for abduction of the hip joint is somewhere between 40° and 50°. At that point the greater trochanter of the femur engages the acetabulum of the illium.
Anything outside of that range of motion cause some subluxation, not necessarily full dislocation. In my opinion, thats enough destabilisation of the joint to warrant not practising the splits.

freemenfitness

This has gotten a little off topic but OP if you dont want to work on it find a club that meets your needs a style that is unlikely to make you work on them would be wing chun as it is primarily based around the upper body and not many kicks.

As for the splits I know a few people with full front and side splits. I have a full front and am about 11" off the floor on the side. Unless your hip prevents you from getting into the position then you will be able to achieve them. Injury tends to arise if you train it incorrectly or treat it only as a stretch.

A splits is much more of a strength move I always say imagine holding a handstand with your arms as wide as possible. Also if it caused damage then there would be a huge amount of badly injured dancers, ballerinas, yogis and gymnasts out there which is not too common form the splits. This would be worth its own topic though if people want to discuss it.

cletus

Being able to do something with your body does not equate with your body being designed to do it. The are scientific studies in peer reviewed journals looking at the rates of injury to lower body joints, including the hip joint. To suggest that dancers dont suffer from injury to hips, as well as knees, ankles and lower back, in untrue. Do they push through the injury and discomfort in order to be able to preform their chosen activity? Probably, which is something that happens in most competitive athletic endeavors.

So, should you do the splits? Given the information I have, its not an exercise I would recommend to anybody, but just like being punched in the face, once you are an adult and have enough information to make an informed decision, then its entirely up to the individual

freemenfitness

I never said that dancers dont suffer from these issues I said that I dont see massive numbers of these populations dealing with injuries arising directly from training the splits. The only study I could find on hip dysplaysia in dancers from 2012 said this "There are no current studies in the literature which directly correlate the incidence of dysplastic hips to the overall dance population, "

Would you have any links to those studies would genuinely be interested to read some. I have seen plenty that refer to instability in the hip leading to injury when doing activities requiring extreme range such as dance but have not seen any on the splits so would love to read them.

Having talked to and worked with gymnasts and other populations that require high levels of flexibility most injuries tend to arise from lack of strength or poor training methods. But slowly taking a joint to its end range and strengthening that full range of motion tends to be beneficial so any studies that say otherwise I would love to read.

cletus

I think it would be impossible to to isolate the splits, or any other specific exercise, in terms of injury rates in an activity such as dancing, given the wide and varied range of movements they train in. I havent seen studied directly related to the splits, my point was that people take part in all sorts of endeavors, and make their body do all sorts of things, that are not beneficial for their overall health, but rather beneficial for the activity the take part in

With regards to taking a joint to its end range, maybe you have other information, but the end range of motion for hip abduction in the frontal plane is 40-50 degrees. Even hyperextensivity at the joint giving you, say, another 10%, allows for total abduction at both joints simultaneously being 110 degrees. The other 90 degrees needed for full splits, in my opinion, comes at risk to the joint capsule. Is it possible to strengthen the surrounding musculature to support whatever compromise has been made to the actual joint? Very likely. Its just not something I would be willing to do, and not something I would suggest lightly to anybody else

freemenfitness

Yeah any athletic endeavor will tend to have injuries specific to them eg hamstring tears in football etc. So dancers and so on will have a much higher chance of hip injuries.

Yes the one thing to not on the average range of motion is that it takes into account a wide array of people simply put many people cant do the splits their socket and hip size and length will not allow it. Many people would have flexibility below 110 and I have seen many people with similar issues. The tests you can do for these ranges are also pretty straight forward.

I also have to agree achieving the splits for many people is totally unnecessary I am only working on them for specific gymnastic skills. For many people I would ask what are your flexibility needs and why do you want it but for most including OP they are totally unnecessary.

yomchi

cletus wrote: »

Normal range of motion for abduction of the hip joint is somewhere between 40° and 50°. At that point the greater trochanter of the femur engages the acetabulum of the illium.
Anything outside of that range of motion cause some subluxation, not necessarily full dislocation. In my opinion, thats enough destabilisation of the joint to warrant not practising the splits.

After developing greater trochanter pain syndrome in my left hip my physio said the side splits are probably the most irrelevant exercise available. They do not improve high kicking and put unbelievable pressure on the hip joints.

Old school mentality that's all it is. Some instructors do it because their instructors did it, and they did it in the 1970's.

Ask Bill Wallace what the side splits did to his hips, he'll tell you 2 hip replacements - fact.

yomchi

freemenfitness wrote: »

Also if it caused damage then there would be a huge amount of badly injured dancers, ballerinas, yogis and gymnasts out there which is not too common form the splits. This would be worth its own topic though if people want to discuss it.

There are a huge amount of badly damaged dancers, gymnansts and ballerinas! Do some research on hip dysplasia. As for Yogis, in yoga they practice straddle splits which is much different to the box splits and does not involve moving the hip like you would in a box splits.

freemenfitness

Yeah there is little carry over to kicks however in some martial arts it is part of showing off and that old school mentality. but like I said its all down to the persons needs. If OP feels they do not need it or want it then dont train it.

Again I never said there are not many injured people in these communities but attributing it to one single movement all I am wondering is there research or evidence to attribute hip dysplasia to the splits. If there is I will change my opinion on it.

Having spent a lot of time looking at Thomas Kurz's work and having used it the straddle splits tends to cause more damage usually to the knees and as the box spltis is primarily a strenght movement. But the box if done wrong and without correct pelvic movement and hip shape can of course cause massive damage. Thomas Kurz can still even into old age drop into the splits with no issue.

Again I will say this, I am not saying the splits does not have the potential to cause damage. I am not saying that the communities I mentioned do not suffer from hip injuries. I am not saying that hip dysplasia is not a real thing. I am merely saying that i know a lot of people with the splits who have trained it properly and have never suffered any injury from it and that I would like to see evidence showing that the splits does directly cause damage when done properly that is all.

cletus

No such study exists, because nobody does the splits exclusivly as an exercise. You cant differentiate between splits and any of the other stretches/exercises that dancers and gymnasts do. You would need to take a group from normal population, and do a longitudinal study where they only practice splits.

The other option is to surmise based on human anatomy. I've already stated roms etc for that joint, and like I said even if your more flexible by 10 or even 15 percent than the norm, it doesn't account for the disparity between the degree achievable and the the 180 degrees required for the splits.

As somebody who worked as a fitness instructor and personal trainer, and is currently a PE teacher, I've never seen anybody naturally able to approach anything near 90 degrees of hip abduction in the frontal plane

yomchi

Good points Cletus

freemenfitness

The articles attached is worth reading the first one lays out how to test if the hip is capable of getting into a split position and the second explains how to actually do them correctly. As you have mentioned and as is explained in the piece and as I mentioned once you use correct form and tilt the hips once you reach the 135° abduction and your hips jam tilting the hips prevents any jamming and allows you to get into the full position.

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=12

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=13

cletus

Can I just clarify some of the terminology being used. My understanding of full splits is starting from standing, with toes pointing forward, you slide down so that your legs are parallel to the floor, with your toes pointing forward still (i.e. staying in the anatomical frontal plane), so that the hip is abducted in the sagital plane.

The picture in the first link is not hip abduction, but external rotation, and then flexion in the sagital plane

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8DQzw8RBe2V5Z62VHi32W6UTq-BdxaoH_y5ys8VJchviWObgHgA

Much like the link above, but on the ground (on my phone can't embed)

freemenfitness

Ah got you now and yes doing it like that is very harmful I actually found some xrays of cheerleaders doing this and causing really bad dysplasia so yeah I 100% agree. But that is also how to do them with bad form.

To quote another coach when you are doing your splits you should twerk to save your hips like Van Damme used to.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sPp6gafspTM/hqdefault.jpg

MartyMcFly84

I am working on my splits for a little over a year. I am 32 and am just about there. My kicks have gotten a lot higher than I have ever been able to kick before.

Babies and a lot of young kids can do the splits pretty easily. I was under the impression the reason we(adults) can't is that we simply stopped using this range of motion and our limbs tighten up like what happens as the majority of people as get older from lack of use.

Irish people in general are pretty inflexible compared to a lot of other countries. I put it down to our pretty terrible physical education and complete lack of gymnastics in Irish schools at any age. We also are also very poor at incorporating stretching or warming down in a lot of sports in the country. Even in the majority of martial arts clubs I have trained in, the vast majority walk straight off the matts and into the changing rooms.

freemenfitness

It is down to anatomy if you can or cannot do it see the articles I shared. Learning to use your ROM will help with kick height but I have worked solely on dynamic flexibility has done more than anything else to improve it even when my static flexibility does not match. I have trained with plenty of guys who could kick me in the head but not come close to touching their toes.

Most people in modern societies are very inflexible for a myriad of reasons eg prolonged sitting etc. There is also a huge amount of misconceptions and lack of education when it comes to stretching and mobility but this would all be better off in a topic of its own.

Mellor

Nichololas wrote: »

If you can stand up straight and lift each leg out to the side at a 90 degree angle without discomfort (like propping your leg on a table or chair), then there's nothing in your hips physically stopping you from being able to do the splits. Actually getting down into the splits is another matter, as your nervous system will try and protect you from injuring yourself in a range of movement you're not familiar with.

You are paraphrase Kurtz here. But that "fact" that he presents it, is pseudoscience.
Yes your body has in inbuilt reflex that inhibits flexibility, and getting more flexible is more about overcome this neurological aspect than it is about physically lengthening/stretching you muscles.

But the one side at a time work around that he shows doesn't bypass this reflex. That's complete nonsense. The body isn't so easily tricked.
He includes a picture of him doing it. Which is meaningless as he can also do fully abducted side splits.

A typical person can put their leg up on a chair like that not because they are tricking the body. But because they tilt their pelvis. They are probably getting 50-60deg from aduction, and the rest is pelvic tilt.

cletus wrote: »

The other option is to surmise based on human anatomy. I've already stated roms etc for that joint, and like I said even if your more flexible by 10 or even 15 percent than the norm, it doesn't account for the disparity between the degree achievable and the the 180 degrees required for the splits.

As somebody who worked as a fitness instructor and personal trainer, and is currently a PE teacher, I've never seen anybody naturally able to approach anything near 90 degrees of hip abduction in the frontal plane

That kind of split exists it a rare few. It either requires semi dislocation or extremely special hips.

Actual side splits should be done with way less than 180 abduction. It should only be abduction as far as the greater trochanter presses the ilium (varys person to person) and then the rest is achieve with external rotation*.
The side splits is kind of physical trick in that regards. Some that a lot of these split masters don't make too clear.

As an aside, that sort of range and mobility is much more useful in Jiujitsu (as guard is rarely just spreading your legs )

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

Babies and a lot of young kids can do the splits pretty easily. I was under the impression the reason we(adults) can't is that we simply stopped using this range of motion and our limbs tighten up like what happens as the majority of people as get older from lack of use.

Use of range is partially responsible. But as a whole the above is a bit of a myth. Well semi-myth. It also comes up as the babies can squat idea.

Babies have more bones than adults dues to bones that later grow into each other and fuse. This means there is more space in their joints. They are mostly flexible because their bones aren't in the way.