Hate the Sin, Not the Sinner

learn_more

I was wondering why religious people use the expression in certain situations but not in others.

Recent case in point: http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/ellen-degeneres-axes-singer-from-show-after-hate-filled-homophobic-rant-35340979.html

Ellen DeGeneres has banned a famous gospel singer from appearing on her show following her homophobic rant.

In a church sermon last week, the pastor and singer ( Kim Burrell )
- who features on Pharrell's song I See A Victory - claimed that homosexuality is an "evil spirit" and that homosexuality is a "perverted act".

"That perverted, homosexual spirit is a spirit of delusion and confusion. If you, as a man, will open your mouth and take a man's penis in your face, you are perverted.

"If you are a woman and you shake your breasts in another woman's face, you are perverted."

But God hates the sin in you and me, anything that is against the nature of God.

She said: “I never said that all gays were going to hell. That never came out of my mouth. … I said people who operate with that spirit in the church with deception and attack themselves are going to have to face the master.”

Now, she's not quoted as saying exactly 'hate the sin and not the sinner' but it was implied and I've heard it many times in relation to homosexual 'acts'.

I was just wondering, if you are religious; if your brother was whacked over the head with a beer bottle sustaining life threatening injuries, would you be happy to invite the perpetrator over for a cup a tea and say well I hate what you did to my brother but your 'lovely', and I have no ill feelings towards you at all, I just hate what you did, and god does too.

Does that attitude sound even slightly plausible ?

If not, then why do some religious people use the expression in relation to legal sexual acts ? Surely it's just a 'technique' to sound caring/sympathetic to hide the real underlying hate and disgust ppl harbour in their minds.

uch

Murica

The_Valeyard

Of course forgiveness is possible, depends on the person.

Look at Richard Moore, shot and blinded by a rubber bullet fired by a British Soldier on 4th May 1972 (10 years old) whilst on his way home from school.


He tracked down the soldier later in life and forgave him. Both eventually became friends met the Dali Lama and stuff.


Suppose it depends on the crime and the victim.


Edit: this is in response to your forgiveness comments for injures and stuff.

gramar

Who gives a shíte?

The_Valeyard

Isn't the Master, now The Mistress? Or Missy for short.

Anesthetize

gramar wrote: »

Who gives a shíte?

Hate the shit, not the shitter.

5starpool

I've never heard anyone using that expression.

Hammer89

The_Valeyard wrote: »

He tracked down the soldier later in life and forgave him. Both eventually became friends met the Dali Lama and stuff.

I think they just told the blind bloke that it was the Dali Lama.

Miss Demeanour

Will "I'm having my breakfast Kate" answer it?

biko

Don't hate da playa, hate da game

aaronjumper

biko wrote: »

Don't hate da playa, hate da game

Begrudge not the participant begrudge the contest in which thou art engaged.

learn_more

5starpool wrote: »

I've never heard anyone using that expression.

Really?

Seriously?

LaVail

woteva

Galway_Old_Man

learn_more wrote: »

Does that attitude sound even slightly plausible ?

Having seen and read about numerous similar instances (you don't need to head far up the road in a car for lots), then yes. It's highly plausible as it's been documented innumerable times throughout history.

But please, don't let this get in the way of your strawmanning. I realise you probably aren't interested in that kind of answer.

Capt'n Midnight

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Both eventually became friends met the Dali Lama and stuff.

When BRIAN BLESSED met the Dali Lama he sparred with him in a boxing ring :cool:

mbur

It's best to let it all go completely.

Hate of any kind is a dangerous thing to carry around. But when you do figure out how to get over it, be sure to tell the rest of us.

Fleawuss

I rely on revelations made by alleged deities to nomadic people thousands of years ago for rules which I must follow to avoid offending the alleged creator god who may cause crops to fail or plagues in retribution.

How can we know the sinner from the sin?

hinault

learn_more wrote: »

I was wondering why religious people use the expression in certain situations but not in others.

Recent case in point: http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/ellen-degeneres-axes-singer-from-show-after-hate-filled-homophobic-rant-35340979.html

Now, she's not quoted as saying exactly 'hate the sin and not the sinner' but it was implied and I've heard it many times in relation to homosexual 'acts'.

I was just wondering, if you are religious; if your brother was whacked over the head with a beer bottle sustaining life threatening injuries, would you be happy to invite the perpetrator over for a cup a tea and say well I hate what you did to my brother but your 'lovely', and I have no ill feelings towards you at all, I just hate what you did, and god does too.

Does that attitude sound even slightly plausible ?

If not, then why do some religious people use the expression in relation to legal sexual acts ? Surely it's just a 'technique' to sound caring/sympathetic to hide the real underlying hate and disgust ppl harbour in their minds.

Your understanding of the saying and what the saying means, is the problem.

Sin is an offence first and foremost against God. That is why sin is to be despised because it offends God.

Justice and mercy don't require you to do anything. God dispenses justice and mercy.
No one is required to invite the perpetrator of their brothers attack to tea.
One can choose to do so. But one is not required to make that choice.

JustAThought

Punish the sinner not the sin. Concepts don't rape children & shiv old ladies in carparks after Mass.

learn_more

learn_more wrote: »

I was just wondering, if you are religious; if your brother was whacked over the head with a beer bottle sustaining life threatening injuries, would you be happy to invite the perpetrator over for a cup a tea and say well I hate what you did to my brother but your 'lovely', and I have no ill feelings towards you at all, I just hate what you did, and god does too.

Does that attitude sound even slightly plausible ?

I'm not religious, but there's a huge middle ground between not hating the sinner and having cups of tea and telling them they're lovely and you have no ill will. You can attempt to forgive without thinking they're great people altogether.

I think the reasoning behind it is that hate hurts the hater, and that hating both the sin or crime and the person who committed it, is hurting yourself two times over.

Still, I don't think that you can call a gay person perverted, of evil spirit and delusional and yet pretend that you aren't speaking the language of hate. They might claim to hate the 'sin' and not the sinner, but they're lying.

learn_more

Candie wrote: »

Still, I don't think that you can call a gay person perverted, of evil spirit and delusional and yet pretend that you aren't speaking the language of hate. They might claim to hate the 'sin' and not the sinner, but they're lying.

That's exactly my point. Glad ppl see it for the clever manipulation of rhetoric it is.

KERSPLAT!

Miss Demeanour wrote: »

Will "I'm having my breakfast Kate" answer it?

What the **** is this from!? Driving me nuts

KERSPLAT!

And on topic, I've never heard that phrase either.

Advbrd

hinault wrote: »

Your understanding of the saying and what the saying means, is the problem.

Sin is an offence first and foremost against God. That is why sin is to be despised because it offends God.

Justice and mercy don't require you to do anything. God dispenses justice and mercy.
No one is required to invite the perpetrator of their brothers attack to tea.
One can choose to do so. But one is not required to make that choice.

As god does not exist, sin does not exist.

Hiding behind the sin/sinner nonsense in this case is pretty much trying to justify the inherent prejudice. On a par with "I'm not racist but..."

mansize

Hate the sin not the sinner is a Bull shyte get out clause

My love is a sin, yet child rape and slavery isn't???

Love your "religion" pal

hannible the cannible

learn_more wrote: »

Really?

Seriously?

Because everyone reads USA today and Google searchs random phrases into Google that just might have been said at some other time in history :rolleyes:

fizzypish

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

When BRIAN BLESSED met the Dali Lama he sparred with him in a boxing ring :cool:

Please don't involve Mr Blessed in this bollox. He's too much of a legend to be involved in this BS. Great story though. What a man.

mansize

They hate us cos they anus!

MrPudding

5starpool wrote: »

I've never heard anyone using that expression.

Maybe you need to widen the number of boards you visit...

MrP

Trent Houseboat

por que no los dos?

keano_afc

learn_more wrote: »

That's exactly my point. Glad ppl see it for the clever manipulation of rhetoric it is.

But you're missing the point in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned, the entire purpose of that phrase is that no individual is hated for their sin. Its the actual sin/act that is being called into question.

KERSPLAT!

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

What the **** is this from!? Driving me nuts

is it not from here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057686148

learn_more

keano_afc wrote: »

But you're missing the point in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned, the entire purpose of that phrase is that no individual is hated for their sin. Its the actual sin/act that is being called into question.

My point was why it is used in certain contexts and not others. My understating of the phrase is irrelevant.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Christians use this phrase.

Humans will always commit sin and evil but Christ will always forgive as long as you repent.

It doesn't matter what you do in life. A murderer can be saved if he repents and gives his soul to the Lord. It's never too late to repent and return to God.

The same God our Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters believe in.

Graces7

learn_more wrote: »

My point was why it is used in certain contexts and not others. My understating of the phrase is irrelevant.

Because many choose not to forgive simply. We see that here every day?

My take on this; if someone pushes me off a bridge, I will forgive them while I am recovering in hospital but no way would I ever walk across a bridge with them.There is a Jewish saying, forgive but keep your camel tied up.

Forgiving does not mean excusing the person.

We forgive; else we stay bitter and angry and harm ourselves. Does not mean we approve what has been done.

We forgive to heal ourselves from injury.

We forgive as we are far from perfect ourselves and need forgiving for what WE do.

Graces7

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Christians use this phrase.

Humans will always commit sin and evil but Christ will always forgive as long as you repent.

It doesn't matter what you do in life. A murderer can be saved if he repents and gives his soul to the Lord. It's never too late to repent and return to God.

The same God our Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters believe in.

not.

Lamentabli sane

Hate the sin and love the sinner is a very Christian attitude because in practice it imitates God. God HATES sin, but every sinner is dear to Him and precious in His sight.

Everyone is bestowed with the gift of free will. He/she can choose for God or against Him - these choices are done through thoughts, words, deeds (both of commission and omission). In the end, each one of us, whether he likes it or not, will have to render an account of those choices before God. This will seal our eternity.

We know this because God has communicated this information to us through the Bible and His Church (which is one, not many, and very much Catholic).

With regard to homosexuality/hating the sin and not the sinner I think the following is quite instructive:

The bible condemns homosexuality in Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, & 1 Timothy 8-10. Notice, however, that it does not condemn homosexuals. The bible says in Matthew 21:31 that harlots will be entering the kingdom of heaven before the self righteous hypocrites of the day, and the same could be said of homosexuals. The problem here though, is that they have to first repent of their homosexual sinfulness, which they don’t even recognize as being sinful.

JupiterKid

It's just an excuse to justify hatred. In this case homophobia, which is despicable in my book.