Queueing on hard shoulder

phoenix49

It might be a stupid question, but I'm not really sure what's the best/correct/polite way to do when dealing with cars queueing on hard shoulder before their exit on motorways and nat. roads.

It seems to be obvious that it is illegal and dangerous to queue on hard shoulder before you plan to exit, it happened couple of times when I remained on the road by legally driving on the leftmost lane and exiting the motorway/national road then merging with traffic coming from the hard shoulder to my lane. Firstly, you never know and don't expect queues on hard shoulders when you approach your exit, secondly it is a dangerous thing to do that. However on the other hand, it seems to be freeing the overall traffic which would have queued on the left lane. It also didn't seem being nice to other drivers sitting in the queue (on hard shoulder), even though that was their choice.

What do you think is a correct thing to do in such situations?

Thanks!

P.S. I have around 9 years of driving experience with only 2+ in Ireland.

Dravokivich

I believe you are meant to queue in the driving lane from where the filter lane starts.

They shouldn't be queuing in the Hard Shoulder at all.

It'll be an interesting to quetion to put forward in the Learning to Drive forum.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=909

Even though you aren't a learner. It's frequented by people who were/are instructors.

Thoie

Just my opinion, but no-one queues on the hard shoulder for the fun of it. The primary place I can think where it happens is the westbound approach to Mahon Point (coming from the tunnel) around Christmas, and certain places on the M50 during morning rush hour. In all the places I can think of, it's obvious from quite a distance away that these are people queuing for the exit. If everyone waited until the "right" place to take the exit, it would make traffic even more chaotic, as essentially the driving lane of a 100kph zone would be at a complete standstill.

It's not nice to the other drivers who've been queuing for 20 minutes to sail past the entire queue and slip in at the "right" place, particularly when it's perfectly obvious what you're doing. There's also the fact that as traffic in the queue is at a standstill, people (not necessarily you) who do that are barreling along at 100kph, then come to a dead stop in the driving lane at the point that they decide they want to exit. From observation, many (again, not you), don't bother giving any advance warning they're about to do this, and wait until just before the chevrons to make their exit (instead of the "normal" point where the aux lane starts).

The ideal solution is that the roads are designed in such a way that there's a sufficiently long auxillary lane to deal with queues, but there will always be some unexpected circumstance that will push a queue beyond that. I'd suggest just joining everyone else queuing on the hard shoulder in that instance.

trellheim

This SI closest I could find ( old, though )

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1983/si/275/made/en/print

Thoie

trellheim wrote: »

This SI closest I could find ( old, though )

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1983/si/275/made/en/print

Phoenix was right in her first post - it is illegal to drive on the hard shoulder - the hard shoulder is supposed to be kept clear for people to pull into if they break down, for example. I can't see anyone ever being arrested for it in situations like described, where there's a long queue of traffic. In the example of Mahon Point that I gave earlier, if the driving lane was blocked by people queuing for that exit, with the hard shoulder clear, the queues would knock on back through the tunnel and the Dunkettle interchange. I suspect it would lead to a rash of fender benders (or worse) as people tried to change lane in the tunnel, or continue on around the roundabout at the last second when they realised all the cars were stopped. In that scenario you'd probably also find people who want to turn left at the top of the exit getting impatient and trying to zip up the inside anyway.

The "legal" solution would lead to more accidents than the common sense, but illegal solution of people turning the hard shoulder into an extended aux lane.

Ben D Bus

I encountered an accident on the M1 in Northern Ireland just before Christmas.

Got caught in a tailback as traffic was being directed off the motorway at the exit before the accident scene.

Many drivers opted to enter the hard shoulder thus blocking access by emergency vehicles. A police car had to reverse slowly up the hard shoulder from the scene of the accident to clear access for fire/ambulance.

People are idiots.

Riva10

On some occasions the Gardaí in Cork will nail drivers who queue on the hard shoulder heading to Mahon from the tunnel. Do'nt ask. Enough said

GM228

trellheim wrote: »

This SI closest I could find ( old, though )

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1983/si/275/made/en/print

The Traffic and Parking Regulations 1997 S33 (1)(b) is the appropriaye SI.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

33. (1) A driver on a motorway shall not—


( b ) drive a vehicle on or across any part of the motorway which is not a carriageway

The hard should is not part of the motorway carriageway and there is no exception for waiting to exit a motorway.

ongarboy

Thoie wrote: »

Just my opinion, but no-one queues on the hard shoulder for the fun of it. The primary place I can think where it happens is the westbound approach to Mahon Point (coming from the tunnel) around Christmas, and certain places on the M50 during morning rush hour. In all the places I can think of, it's obvious from quite a distance away that these are people queuing for the exit. If everyone waited until the "right" place to take the exit, it would make traffic even more chaotic, as essentially the driving lane of a 100kph zone would be at a complete standstill.

It's not nice to the other drivers who've been queuing for 20 minutes to sail past the entire queue and slip in at the "right" place, particularly when it's perfectly obvious what you're doing. There's also the fact that as traffic in the queue is at a standstill, people (not necessarily you) who do that are barreling along at 100kph, then come to a dead stop in the driving lane at the point that they decide they want to exit. From observation, many (again, not you), don't bother giving any advance warning they're about to do this, and wait until just before the chevrons to make their exit (instead of the "normal" point where the aux lane starts).

The ideal solution is that the roads are designed in such a way that there's a sufficiently long auxillary lane to deal with queues, but there will always be some unexpected circumstance that will push a queue beyond that. I'd suggest just joining everyone else queuing on the hard shoulder in that instance.

I have conflicting views on this. I am a regular user of the M50 soutbound N3 turn off for Blanchardstown/Cavan exit and sometimes during rush hour the queues on the auxiliary lane are backed up as far as the 2km sign for that exit. While I also dislike someone squeezing in at the last second just before the turn off while the rest of us patiently queued, what I have noticed sometimes is that the queue on the auxiliary lane from the 2km to 1km distance to the exit is at a standstill but is relatively free flowing for the last km nearest to the exit so drivers who skipped the queue so to speak further back, are now safely merging where there is safe gaps between the free flowing cars as you would if there was no congestion. Are such drivers in the wrong in that case just because other drivers chose to join and/or cause a queue prematurely?

I've been in that situation where I was in the fast lane and spotted the queue in the auxiliary and by the time I crossed the 3 lanes to join the queue, the queue had disolved again and I merged comfortably even though I had passed 100s of crawling or standstill cars also wishing to turn off.

degsie

When in doubt I just follow the ROTR, thus I tend to NOT queue in the hard shoulder.

Del2005

GM228 wrote: »

The Traffic and Parking Regulations 1997 S33 (1)(b) is the appropriaye SI.



The hard should is not part of the motorway carriageway and there is no exception for waiting to exit a motorway.

It's also illegal to stop on a motorway, except in an emergency, so there's no legal solution. The problem isn't the motorway as its the roads after it that can't handle the traffic coming off, you can't just build a high quality road into the same roads that existed before.

GM228

Del2005 wrote: »

It's also illegal to stop on a motorway, except in an emergency, so there's no legal solution.

You can stop legally when there is an obstruction preventing you from proceeding, the car stoped in front of you is obstructing you from proceeding as is the car in front of that and so on.

n97 mini

The difference between the hard shoulder and the exit lane is a usually line painted on the ground. In many cases the line was not painted far enough back.

Sleeper12

Dravokivich wrote:

They shouldn't be queuing in the Hard Shoulder at all.

Agree. Pretty sure the hard shoulder is reserved for emergency vehicles in rush hour traffic

phoenix49

Morally speaking, in regards to other drivers, it would make sense to queue on a hard shoulder and be nice to fellow drivers, however, there are multiple issues with that:

* Bad precedent for others evolving into bad habits and resulting in more common queues on hard shoulders.
* Blocking emergency vehicles or vehicles in emergency requiring move off the road or imagine a car brakes and a driver would need to push it away from main road, etc
* It's just wrong, rules are there to avoid chaos. Unfortunately I've driven in countries where you are a minority who abide traffic rules.

In my original post as an example I thought about N3 to Clonee exit. I remember driving from M50 towards that exit and hard shoulder was full with queueing cars starting midway between the exit and merge from Blanch Centre, driving on a rightmost lane at around ~90km/h I would no way slow down to queue on a hard shoulder long before the merge.

On the other hand, I'd been involved in similar situation on M50 -> N3 exit, where queue was on leftmost lane - which is a proper way to queue.

Thoie

As far as the emergency vehicle access goes, the hard shoulder is generally used by them when all the proper lanes of the motorway are at a standstill (probably due to an accident ahead that the ES are trying to reach). In the instances we're talking about, people queuing in the hard shoulder are actually keeping the driving lane clear, so the ES can drive normally on the lane, and cut in where they need to (drivers can be pricks, but I don't think anyone would stop an ES vehicle with lights and sirens blasting from cutting into the queue).

I can't quite picture Ben D Bus's example - was the ambulance trying to use the exit that other drivers were being diverted off at?

I came across the accident on the M8 (someone driving the wrong way on the southbound carriageway) last week probably about 30 minutes after it happened. It happened shortly after an "on" ramp where there happens to be no corrresponding "off" ramp before it. The previous "off" ramp was about 8km behind us. In that instance traffic was being directed into hard shoulder, then from there to the overtaking lane to do a sharp u-turn the wrong way up the on-ramp. Later (presumably when they had gathered resources etc), the diversion was pushed back to the previous exit. The point being that the hard shoulder wasn't considered sacrosanct in that scenario, they were just going with the common sense solution for the time.

Riva10

Thoie wrote: »

As far as the emergency vehicle access goes, the hard shoulder is generally used by them when all the proper lanes of the motorway are at a standstill (probably due to an accident ahead that the ES are trying to reach). In the instances we're talking about, people queuing in the hard shoulder are actually keeping the driving lane clear, so the ES can drive normally on the lane, and cut in where they need to (drivers can be pricks, but I don't think anyone would stop an ES vehicle with lights and sirens blasting from cutting into the queue).

I can't quite picture Ben D Bus's example - was the ambulance trying to use the exit that other drivers were being diverted off at?

I came across the accident on the M8 (someone driving the wrong way on the southbound carriageway) last week probably about 30 minutes after it happened. It happened shortly after an "on" ramp where there happens to be no corrresponding "off" ramp before it. The previous "off" ramp was about 8km behind us. In that instance traffic was being directed into hard shoulder, then from there to the overtaking lane to do a sharp u-turn the wrong way up the on-ramp. Later (presumably when they had gathered resources etc), the diversion was pushed back to the previous exit. The point being that the hard shoulder wasn't considered sacrosanct in that scenario, they were just going with the common sense solution for the time.

I am sure any Gárda who stops you while you are driving on the hard shoulder of the motorway will wholeheartedly agree with you.

Thoie

Riva10 wrote: »

I am sure any Gárda who stops you while you are driving on the hard shoulder of the motorway will wholeheartedly agree with you.

I've already agreed that the law says driving on the hard shoulder is illegal (post 5). I don't gleefully go for daily spins on the hard shoulder of motorways (or of any other roads) just for a bit of adventure.

Sometimes people have to use common sense rather than just sticking to the letter of the law. I am aware that my "common sense" is still illegal, and if stopped by the gardaí will accept that. When the driving lanes can be kept clear by people queuing in the hard shoulder, I'll queue in the hard shoulder. If the driving lanes are also congested/at a standstill (for example because of an accident ahead), in that scenario it's important to keep the hard shoulder clear for ES vehicles, so I wouldn't move into the hard shoulder. Each situation is unique, and while the law is black and white, in this case I'll use my best judgement and take whatever punishment comes with that.

On the plus side, I do have a better appreciation of the people who zoom up alongside the obvious queue and force themselves in at the top, and will no longer consider them selfish pricks, but will remind myself that they're more law abiding than everyone else, and doing the right thing.

phoenix49

Thanks for all the answers, I was just trying to get an impression of "common sense" or "unspoken rules" amongst the drivers. I would probably try to follow the rules in such circumstances, where possible and would try to avoid queueing on a hard shoulder unless it clearly makes traffic movement better by vacating the whole lane for moving cars. Nevertheless, both actions are unpleasant to everyone.