Irish Solicitors working in UK/Europe vs Ireland

CalbArred

I have been researching salaries for law firms in Europe and have found that Irish salaries are relatively low compared to their UK counterparts. Considering the relative ease of an Irish qualified solicitor to qualify in England/Wales, is there a trend for Irish solicitors to find employment with larger firms in England? 
Aside from geographic location, are there any pros/cons that anyone would consider working in Dublin versus London for example?

Denny_Crane

I imagine the competition is pretty tough. I expect the larger London firms have their pick of the Oxbridge graduates. I'm sure that many Irish solicitors with a few years and a specialist area would be attractive to such a firm but as people get older they put down more roots.

I'm not suggesting it's impossible just not completely straightforward.

As for Pros and Cons, it's London is really in both categories, the cost of living is pretty bloody high. The one thing I noticed living in the South East is the flippin' cost of moving about is just stupid in comparison to Dublin.

CalbArred

I figured it would be more competitive. [font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] [/font]Though I just saw an associate with a degree from BPP London with 2-year PQE  hired at an international firm in London and making [font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]£115,000 +.  I am not that familiar with a ranking system in the UK, but haven't heard of the school before. [/font]
[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Based on your comment I gather that Oxford/Cambridge graduates are preferred for the best firms. Though how do Irish qualified solicitors stack up against English qualified solicitors?  In the US we have a tiering system where each law school is ranked, and larger firms will not consider anyone in the top 25 schools or first tier, etc. As the pay/desirability of the firm decreases, so does the "required" school rank. Is there a stigma of Irish vs. English schools in general? [/font]
[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] [/font]

Denny_Crane

It would be very poor form for me to comment, so I will. It's not really the fact that they've qualified in Ireland. Blackhall seems to offer an excellent standard of graduate. The issue I suspect many would face is confusion over exactly where NUI Maynooth falls against Nottingham (for example) in relation to standard of graduate.

Now don't get me wrong. I absolutely hate educational snobbery based on where people went to University but it's not me anyone needs to convince. I'm working with very little real experience of this though so hopefully someone will tell me a I'm completely wrong and that many from Trinners go to a land of milk and honey every year. My experience, limited as it is, seems to indicate that people get some sort of 'in' very early on though and work hard at cultivating a relationship, be it anything from winning moot court competition at undergraduate to simply writing to the firm.

There is a Milkrounds thread which might shed some light on whether London or other English firms come looking for people.

Marcusm

CalbArred wrote: »

I figured it would be more competitive. [font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] [/font]Though I just saw an associate with a degree from BPP London with 2-year PQE  hired at an international firm in London and making [font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]£115,000 +.  I am not that familiar with a ranking system in the UK, but haven't heard of the school before. [/font]
[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Based on your comment I gather that Oxford/Cambridge graduates are preferred for the best firms. Though how do Irish qualified solicitors stack up against English qualified solicitors?  In the US we have a tiering system where each law school is ranked, and larger firms will not consider anyone in the top 25 schools or first tier, etc. As the pay/desirability of the firm decreases, so does the "required" school rank. Is there a stigma of Irish vs. English schools in general? [/font]
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Is it a degree from BPP or a magic circle trainee who undertook the legal practice course (possibly combined with a postgrad) through BPP? BPP has achieved university status but has primarily been a training company broadly utilised by. Magic circle and other high end law firms for LPC and other professional training and by the big 5 and other major accounting firms for preparation for professional exams. The Law Soc inE&W doesn't run training courses for all trainee solicitors in the way that Blackhall place does.

CalbArred

[font=Arial, sans-serif]It is the legal practice course with a graduate diploma in Law, the remaining education is non-law related. [/font]

Carawaystick

If the Op meant England and Wales why not say England and Wales in the title? so it'd rule all the lawyers in northern Ireland out from the get go.

CalbArred

Carawaystick wrote: »

If the Op meant England and Wales why not say England and Wales in the title? so it'd rule all the lawyers in northern Ireland out from the get go.

I meant UK and Europe - the obvious example though is London as it is probably easiest for someone from Ireland to find employment there imho. Belfast is not really known as a huge legal center, but I may be wrong. Other European cities that I view as large legal centers are Paris, Munich, Berlin, Amsterdam.  And I shoud have specified that I meant employment in the 100k+ range.

Marcusm

CalbArred wrote: »

[font=Arial, sans-serif]It is the legal practice course with a graduate diploma in Law, the remaining education is non-law related. [/font]

That's the postbgrad prep for solicitors professional exams so, BPP is probably the biggest provider and it's not a question of comparing with universities. I spent 20 years in London as a tax adviser and subsequently a financier; few enough of the magic circle and silver circle lawyers I dealt with would have studied law as an undergraduate.

Major legal jurisdictions in Europe would include Brussels, Milan, Frankfurt, Madrid in preference to some you have cited, certainly on a commercial/finance/banking law perspective.

CalbArred

Thank you for the clarification. If it hasn't been obvious I am exploring future employment with one of the larger firms in Europe. I am now qualified California and Ireland. By this summer I should also be qualified in England/Wales. 
I am trying to get a sense of the markets in Ireland vs. other locations. From a personal perspective, I prefer Dublin over London. Unfortunately, it seems that Dublin does not have any top tier firms for which I would be a good fit. And due to the massive amount of student loans (yay, US educational system), I simply can't afford to work for smaller firms. 
The difficulty for me is that I do not fall in well-defined role in my current position as a staff attorney. My estimate ( and my current compensation is an indication) that I am comparable to a big law associate with about 2-3 PQE. I found that the only firms  that would probably be a fit are the Magic Circle firms in London and Germany (who all happen to have offices in the US as well).

Marcusm

CalbArred wrote: »

Thank you for the clarification. If it hasn't been obvious I am exploring future employment with one of the larger firms in Europe. I am now qualified California and Ireland. By this summer I should also be qualified in England/Wales. 
I am trying to get a sense of the markets in Ireland vs. other locations. From a personal perspective, I prefer Dublin over London. Unfortunately, it seems that Dublin does not have any top tier firms for which I would be a good fit. And due to the massive amount of student loans (yay, US educational system), I simply can't afford to work for smaller firms. 
The difficulty for me is that I do not fall in well-defined role in my current position as a staff attorney. My estimate ( and my current compensation is an indication) that I am comparable to a big law associate with about 2-3 PQE. I found that the only firms  that would probably be a fit are the Magic Circle firms in London and Germany (who all happen to have offices in the US as well).

By staff attorney, I assume you mean non associate, non career track position in a law firm? You will need to distinguish yourself by reference to your experience, areas of law and depth of experience. Being admitted in Ireland and/or E&W is simply an assumption, it's not going to get you a second or third year associate position in a major firm unless your experience supports that.

CalbArred

Yes, that is correct. My fear is that I may be already pigeon-holed in my current position due to my title/role. My compensation is currently ~ $xxxk and my work load/tasks often mirror those of our junior associates. That level of compensation is high for a staff attorney, even in the US where most staff attorneys earn around 100-130k in top tier firms. I do not have any illusions that I could command that kind of salary in the Europe or even many (if any) places in the US. Do people in IE/E&W usually disclose their current salary during their job search? 
Unfortunately, my position does not provide me with a real career trajectory nor much in terms of professional development. So truth be told, I am hoping to find a role that provides those opportunities, even it comes with a reduction in pay. 
And I figured that being admitted in the jurisdiction you are applying to is a prerequisite. Though in our DC/NY offices being admitted in a foreign jurisdiction is of value (despite the fact that we have a number of European offices.)  And I imagine that for some European Firms, being barred in New York or California may bring added value. 
Thank you for your input by the way. The whole legal system in Ireland/E&W is a bit foreign to me and I appreciate the insight.   I still have some opportunities here in the US to make the switch, but I much rather would work in Europe.
* I edited my salary in case some other people from my firm stumble across this thread.