Stone House Insulating

Pique

Hi All,

I want to retrofit interior insulation to an old stone built farmhouse.
Is there a preferred way to approach this? I see various solutions out there which seemingly conflict in their approach and the common advice that stone walls need to breathe. (insulated panels attached to wall VS stud/batten with insulation & air gap etc.)
I know asking for cost is like asking how long is a piece of string but is there a general cost/m2 tha I could work with?

If anyone knows someone to come and assess the building in the Roscommon Area, that would be great too, thanks.

Calahonda52

Is there a dpc in the wall and floor. This is a key question which must be answered with certainty.

I think or similar approximations .... etc will not cut it.

IMO, neither of the solutions you describe are acceptable in reality if the expectation is that they will work properly.

there is a lot buried in this site
http://josephlittlearchitects.com/

Am not recommending the practice as that's verboten here, however the links are there some good papers on your problem

Will PM you a company that does it but be aware, before you click on the link that this is not cheap to get done right because it uses special materials and very skilled tradesmen

Pique

DPC? no, not a hope. The hose is 100 years old.
There is damp on one ground floor wall (due I believe to the outside ground level being too high and sloping towards the house. No footpath there either. A French Drain is needed at the very least) which may need serious work.
Another downstairs wall had (and probably still has) damp on one corner where a garden wall connected and that was drylined 25-odd years ago. I wasn't really interested in it as it happened but remember some horrendous-smelling 'paint' that was applied to the wall, then plastic sheeting from floor to ceiling and then a stud wall erected approx 5" out. I do not know any more about it than that.
As far as you saying that either option I mentioned are not suitable, can you expand on that as I haven't seen any other options mentioned (apart from external insulation).

Calahonda52

Read the Little stuff and the links in the PM I sent you, the essence is to make the insulated wall contiguous and breathable through and through.
The two earlier solutions fail booth of these requirements.

IMO You need to undo that plastic sheeting work, source of serious mould growth I bet, the spores which will be in the air...

BryanF

Research
1. hemp-lime

2. calcium silicate

And breathable wall solutions.

Dry-lining is generally not suitable for old stone buildings

You need a holistic approach, that includes damp proofing rising walls, floors, heating, ventilation etc.

I'm out now, as There is plenty written on this on this forum in the topic.

Calahonda52

BryanF wrote: »

Research
1. hemp-lime

2. calcium silicate

And breathable wall solutions.

Dry-lining is generally not suitable for old stone buildings

You need a holistic approach, that includes damp proofing rising walls, floors, heating, ventilation etc.

I'm out now, as There is plenty written on this on this forum in the topic.

As am I:D

Sam Kade

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Is there a dpc in the wall and floor. This is a key question which must be answered with certainty.

I think or similar approximations .... etc will not cut it.

IMO, neither of the solutions you describe are acceptable in reality if the expectation is that they will work properly.

there is a lot buried in this site
http://josephlittlearchitects.com/

Am not recommending the practice as that's verboten here, however the links are there some good papers on your problem

Will PM you a company that does it but be aware, before you click on the link that this is not cheap to get done right because it uses special materials and very skilled tradesmen

How could you have a dpc in a stone wall? Those houses were built with stone walls 1-2 ft thick.

Calahonda52

Sam Kade wrote: »

How could you have a dpc in a stone wall? Those houses were built with stone walls 1-2 ft thick.

Thank you for the observation.

1. could have had one put in using slate, at time of construction: it was in my family home where walls were 3 foot thick.
2. could have been put in using the chemical/electrolysis snakes oil-esque approach
3. could have been put in using the chainsaw with diamond blades process

In any event its always nice to ask the OP, rather than make some assumptions.

Thank you again for making such a pertinent observation

tedimc

OP - you should look into walltite.

One option is to stud out the inside of the stone wall with metal studs. Keep the studs away from the old wall a few inches and get the walltite sprayed on the old wall.

I got it done on an old cavity block extension on my house. Gives you air-tightness and insulation. The foam is closed cell so is water tight - it won't let the stone breath as such. But would this be a problem? You would need to check.

This has been done on a few old stone houses around the area and seems to be a good option. It also helps strengthen the wall a little too.

You would be looking at excess of E25 plus per square meter at a depth of 50mm. You could double that then for 100mm depth.

Pique

tedimc wrote: »

OP -  it won't let the stone breath as such. But would this be a problem? You would need to check.

Apparently it is a big deal. I don't understand the mechanics of it but from anything I've read, these walls need to breathe.

tedimc

Yeah, I've seen issues where the stone 'sweats' and that can cause dampness inside, but the foam would insure the moisture wouldn't get past.

The moisture should get forced to the outside.

I've been told that there are new estates in Dublin being built with one leaf of a cavity block and then using this method and meeting all new building reqs. Not sure if that is true or not, but if it is, the same principles/issues should still apply.

BryanF

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Thank you for the observation.

1. could have had one put in using slate, at time of construction: it was in my family home where walls were 3 foot thick.
2. could have been put in using the chemical/electrolysis snakes oil-esque approach
3. could have been put in using the chainsaw with diamond blades process

In any event its always nice to ask the OP, rather than make some assumptions.

Thank you again for making such a pertinent observation

I'm a fan of electroosmosis, I've seen it work in public renovation projects

BryanF

tedimc wrote: »

OP - you should look into walltite.

One option is to stud out the inside of the stone wall with metal studs. Keep the studs away from the old wall a few inches and get the walltite sprayed on the old wall.

I got it done on an old cavity block extension on my house. Gives you air-tightness and insulation. The foam is closed cell so is water tight - it won't let the stone breath as such. But would this be a problem? You would need to check.

This has been done on a few old stone houses around the area and seems to be a good option. It also helps strengthen the wall a little too.

You would be looking at excess of E25 plus per square meter at a depth of 50mm. You could double that then for 100mm depth.

Walltite, On an old stone wall? That's very different from your block situation. The waltite old stone project was completed as part of a deep retrofit with a full design team involved and a lot of Mahoney spent on the whole house to get it right.

OP unless you've done your homework on dpc and all all other items listed in my post above. Be very cautious of Walltie.

smjm

Pique wrote: »

Hi All,

I want to retrofit interior insulation to an old stone built farmhouse.
Is there a preferred way to approach this? I see various solutions out there which seemingly conflict in their approach and the common advice that stone walls need to breathe. (insulated panels attached to wall VS stud/batten with insulation & air gap etc.)
I know asking for cost is like asking how long is a piece of string but is there a general cost/m2 tha I could work with?

If anyone knows someone to come and assess the building in the Roscommon Area, that would be great too, thanks.

This site, 'Heritage House', might be of interest to you, if only to provide food for thought: http://www.heritage-house.org/internal-insulation-to-old-house-walls.html

I'm no expert at all, but breathability does seem to be key to dealing with old stone buildings. I'd advise you to take plenty of time with your research before undertaking any work, and, as BryanF said, take a holistic approach to the project.

This blog might also be of interest: 'Irish farmhouse restoration' - http://irishfarmhouserestoration.blogspot.ie/

Good luck!

Pique

This site, 'Heritage House', might be of interest to you, if only to provide food for thought: http://www.heritage-house.org/internal-insulation-to-old-house-walls.html

That is a very interesting read and makes a lot of sense to me.
"[font=Tahoma, Geneva, sans-serif]if you insulate the external walls of your house, you are stopping heat from getting to the outer walls.  This means that the thermal mass of the entire outside envelope of the house is lost - the walls cool down in winter and stay cold.  So the only barrier between you and the outside world is effectively the insulated stud wall that you put inside the wall.  So - you are ending up, not with a thick, warm wall, but with a very thin wall - mostly freezing cold, with a veneer of insulation which is your only protection from the elements.  Why bother insulating - just use the nice thick wall and keep it dry!"[/font]

BryanF

Pique wrote: »

That is a very interesting read and makes a lot of sense to me.
"[font=Tahoma, Geneva, sans-serif]if you insulate the external

internal face of external walls

walls of your house, you are stopping heat from getting to the outer walls.  This means that the thermal mass of the entire outside envelope of the house is lost - the walls cool down in winter and stay cold.  So the only barrier between you and the outside world is effectively the insulated stud wall that you put inside the wall.  So - you are ending up, not with a thick, warm wall, but with a very thin wall - mostly freezing cold, with a veneer of insulation which is your only protection from the elements.  Why bother insulating - just use the nice thick wall and keep it dry!"[/font]

Agree apart from the first and last line.

Pique

I understand it meant the internal side of the external walls alright.

I also understand that insulation is beneficial, so how do you reconcile the 2, practically?

smjm

Pique wrote: »

I understand it meant the internal side of the external walls alright.

I also understand that insulation is beneficial, so how do you reconcile the 2, practically?

I've just started reading some of the papers on the http://josephlittlearchitects.com site pointed out earlier by Calahonda52. Very interesting stuff!

This paragraph caught my eye and might be a reasonable answer to your question:

"In masonry buildings of all ages designing for a drier wall (which will consequently have a lower conductivity) with an appropriate drylining buildup is a better goal than focusing only on high-performing insulants, without regard for the masonry’s current or future moisture content, dew point, mould potential etc. In historic buildings the best approach is to accept a modest improvement at the walls but to seek the biggest increases in energy efficiency in the attic, the heating system, thermal bridging around sliding sash windows and air infiltration."

(http://www.josephlittlearchitects.com/content/breaking-mould-2)

I think that tallies with what BryanF said earlier. Take a holistic approach and remember that the walls are just one part of the overall building.

I've only glanced at the paper, but it does suggest approaches to achieve the modest improvement at the walls. I'm sure there's plenty more info on that site.

BryanF

BryanF wrote: »

Research
1. hemp-lime

2. calcium silicate

And breathable wall solutions.

Dry-lining is generally not suitable for old stone buildings

You need a holistic approach, that includes damp proofing rising walls, floors, heating, ventilation etc.

I'm out now, as There is plenty written on this on this forum in the topic.

Pique wrote: »

I understand it meant the internal side of the external walls alright.

I also understand that insulation is beneficial, so how do you reconcile the 2, practically?

.

maisiedaisy

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Will PM you a company that does it but be aware, before you click on the link that this is not cheap to get done right because it uses special materials and very skilled tradesmen

Could you please PM me that recommendation too? Thanks!