Advice on opening a space between two rooms

mulbot

Hi people,Not sure if this is the correct place to post but can't find suitable- I've a query regarding opening a(6/7 ft) space in a wall between kitchen/sitting room. The house is timber frame and the wall considered being opened is not a supporting wall. I'd like to know does this need actual certification from an engineer/architect when finished,as I'm just wondering how it might affect future sale of house. Thanks

Gumbo

mulbot wrote: »

Hi people,Not sure if this is the correct place to post but can't find suitable- I've a query regarding opening a(6/7 ft) space in a wall between kitchen/sitting room. The house is timber frame and the wall considered being opened is not a supporting wall. I'd like to know does this need actual certification from an engineer/architect when finished,as I'm just wondering how it might affect future sale of house. Thanks

In a timber frame house, each wall is acting in some form of structural state. My opinion is that you need an engineer to guide you.

Try get in touch with the original timber frame manufacturers and they may guide you to as where an open
Could be made with increased structural support.

mulbot

kceire wrote: »

In a timber frame house, each wall is acting in some form of structural state. My opinion is that you need an engineer to guide you.

Try get in touch with the original timber frame manufacturers and they may guide you to as where an open
Could be made with increased structural support.

I have confirmation from the builder who sent up a carpenter and drawings to look at it for me,it's 100% not a supporting wall(it's a stud partition in-filled on site)- I just need to know if the work needs to be signed off by an architect/engineer. Thanks

Calahonda52

The downstream risk here is that if you go to sell and somebody twigs that the modification was done and they ask for certification then you have a problem.

If its done to such a standard that it does not look like a modification then its less of a risk.

Is it the plan to open it all up from floor to ceiling?

My starting point would be to ask the guys to write to you what they told you.
The problem with drawings is that stuff does not always get built as per plan so for example I would not certify this as a non structural wall just on drawings

mulbot

Calahonda52 wrote: »

The downstream risk here is that if you go to sell and somebody twigs that the modification was done and they ask for certification then you have a problem.

If its done to such a standard that it does not look like a modification then its less of a risk.

Is it the plan to open it all up from floor to ceiling?

My starting point would be to ask the guys to write to you what they told you.
The problem with drawings is that stuff does not always get built as per plan so for example I would not certify this as a non structural wall just on drawings

Thanks for reply- No,the opening will only be done to the same spec as a double door opening(to leave the option to hang doors in the future).

The Builder is snagging at the minute so I'm in contact with him quite a bit,he was able to tell the wall wasn't a supporting wall. The carpenter he sent up built the houses,so he explained in person(he showed the way the joists run etc),we can be 100 % about the wall not being a support wall.

Metric Tensor

As well as supporting loads from above internal walls can also be used to brace long lengths of external wall (to which they run perpendicular).

Depending on the size of opening you are planning you may make a wall insufficient for a bracing job that it was doing. The carpenter may not be aware of this possibility.

It's very possible that this wall braces your external wall but to be fair it's also quite likely that a door ope won't weaken it too much. It depends on both the position and size of this ope. If you are buying new in an estate and snagging is still going on the engineer signing off on the house for the developer is still around somewhere. Any chance of finding him for a chat.

Also if this is an assigned certifier project (which it probably is) and the ope is being created before sign off then it's sign off should/would be part of the overall as-built project sign off. I'm not sure the builder realises this?!

mulbot

Metric Tensor wrote: »

As well as supporting loads from above internal walls can also be used to brace long lengths of external wall (to which they run perpendicular).

Depending on the size of opening you are planning you may make a wall insufficient for a bracing job that it was doing. The carpenter may not be aware of this possibility.

It's very possible that this wall braces your external wall but to be fair it's also quite likely that a door ope won't weaken it too much. It depends on both the position and size of this ope. If you are buying new in an estate and snagging is still going on the engineer signing off on the house for the developer is still around somewhere. Any chance of finding him for a chat.

Also if this is an assigned certifier project (which it probably is) and the ope is being created before sign off then this ope is being created before the building is complete then it's sign off should/would be part of the overall as-built project sign off. I'm not sure the builder realises this?!

So if it was even a brace,would that mean a beam installed in the opening?

That's a good idea about asking the Engineer,I'll try to do that.

The house will be signed over before the wall is considered.I'm really only looking as an option for now,not really even sure if we will do it yet(finances will dictate that). I was thinking that before the furnishings go in it would be better to do it. Thanks for reply

Metric Tensor

Think of a bracing wall doing the same job as a pillar in a garden wall. It's a pillar inside the wall and the "depth" (i.e. distance into the room) this pillar projects is important.

So if you were to completely remove the wall then you remove this pillar whereas if you put your door in far enough away from the external wall the pillar effect is still intact. What you need is an engineer to tell you if you are installing it too close to the external wall.*

* This description has a lot of simplifications. There's a lot of nuances depending on type and shape of walls and house and in some cases (particularly timber frame/panel systems but also some masonry structures) full lengths of wall are designed as shear panels or for specific load paths. To describe all the possibilities would be impossible here but if the designing engineer is available he'll probably be able to tell you in about 5 minutes or less what job he designed that wall to do.

mulbot

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Think of a bracing wall doing the same job as a pillar in a garden wall. It's a pillar inside the wall and the "depth" (i.e. distance into the room) this pillar projects is important.

So if you were to completely remove the wall then you remove this pillar whereas if you put your door in far enough away from the external wall the pillar effect is still intact. What you need is an engineer to tell you if you are installing it too close to the external wall.*

* This description has a lot of simplifications. There's a lot of nuances depending on type and shape of walls and house and in some cases (particularly timber frame/panel systems but also some masonry structures) full lengths of wall are designed as shear panels or for specific load paths. To describe all the possibilities would be impossible here but if the designing engineer is available he'll probably be able to tell you in about 5 minutes or less what job he designed that wall to do.

Thanks for the advice-I'll go that route so,just to see what the job will entail

Metric Tensor

As I said it's likely you'll be grand but it's always vital to check.

kieran.

Pretty simple to tell if is a structural wall (load bearing or racking) remove a strip of plaster board along the top at the floor wall junction on both sides to check for and additional layer of OSB/ply (racking) if the wall is non load bearing it will also be set down approx 10mm below the floor joistspace...generally.

Johnnyhpipe

kieran. wrote: »

Pretty simple to tell if is a structural wall (load bearing or racking) remove a strip of plaster board along the top at the floor wall junction on both sides to check for and additional layer of OSB/ply (racking) if the wall is non load bearing it will also be set down approx 10mm below the floor joistspace...generally.

...not necessarily..

kieran.

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

...not necessarily..

This is the case with most factory made kits in my experience.

BryanF

kieran. wrote: »

Pretty simple to tell if is a structural wall (load bearing or racking) remove a strip of plaster board along the top at the floor wall junction on both sides to check for and additional layer of OSB/ply (racking) if the wall is non load bearing it will also be set down approx 10mm below the floor joistspace...generally.

We do not offer structural advice in this forum, as per forum charter.