Employing children on farm

The Cuban

My kids help out on the farm, my eldest does a nice bit of the work. She has no other source of income. Is it possible for me to pay her as an employee?
It seems unfair to me that the taxman gets paid but she doesn't.
Can I set myself up as an employer and then employ her? Would Revenue have an issue with this as it would clearly be a Tax offset for the farm?
Anyone here doing this and is there much to it?

whelan2

The Cuban wrote: »

My kids help out on the farm, my eldest does a nice bit of the work. She has no other source of income. Is it possible for me to pay her as an employee?
It seems unfair to me that the taxman gets paid but she doesn't.
Can I set myself up as an employer and then employ her? Would Revenue have an issue with this as it would clearly be a Tax offset for the farm?
Anyone here doing this and is there much to it?

What age is she? I am paying my son who is 15 through the books, talk to your accountant

Mooooo

You can, don't know the ins and outs of it but you can pay them a certain amount which they won't get taxed on and is an expense to you. Above that and theyd be taxed, no of hours worked may have to be watched depending on age i think? Could be wrong on that. Have you an accountant? they should sort it out for you.

The Cuban

Shes 18, finished school but currently doing a PLC course during the day time. I take it your son is still in full time education Whelan?

whelan2

The Cuban wrote: »

Shes 18, finished school but currently doing a PLC course during the day time. I take it your son is still in full time education Whelan?

yes still in school ,I pay an amount each month into his credit union account. This is the first year putting him through the books.

SEPT 23 1989

You can give them tax free gifts every year

The Cuban

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

You can give them tax free gifts every year

I could, but there is no Tax benefit for the farm accounts in doing this.
Basically I`m thinking of paying her ~300 per week, which would reduce the Farm Income by 15k per year. In doing so The farm would then be running at a very small profit.
I`m wondering would Revenue have an issue with doing this as it would seriously cut the farm Tax liability

J.O. Farmer

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

You can give them tax free gifts every year

It wouldn't be a farm expense then though.
An accountant would be able to advise on the most efficient way of doing it. There would be employers prsi and maybe usc for the ops daughter but it's perfectly legal to pay her through the books and depending on the op's tax bill it may well be advisable especially if the op is paying the daughter anyway.

farmersfriend

The Cuban wrote: »

I could, but there is no Tax benefit for the farm accounts in doing this.
Basically I`m thinking of paying her ~300 per week, which would reduce the Farm Income by 15k per year. In doing so The farm would then be running at a very small profit.
I`m wondering would Revenue have an issue with doing this as it would seriously cut the farm Tax liability

Have set son up here through the books, he's 14 nearly 15, definitely well worth looking into. Accountant set it up for us. If they are doing the work dont see how revenue could have an issue.

Buford T. Justice XIX

The Cuban wrote: »

My kids help out on the farm, my eldest does a nice bit of the work. She has no other source of income. Is it possible for me to pay her as an employee?
It seems unfair to me that the taxman gets paid but she doesn't.
Can I set myself up as an employer and then employ her? Would Revenue have an issue with this as it would clearly be a Tax offset for the farm?
Anyone here doing this and is there much to it?

All explained in the link below.

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/substantial-tax-reliefs-available-for-employing-farm-family-members-34434369.html

Keepgrowing

All children should be on the books as soon as is allowed. Usually 15 or so. Can pay up to €10k before tax.

Personally I wouldn't be in favour of putting that kind of money into a kids ac but I'd use towards their education.

4 kids is up to €40k tax free out of the business, well worth considering.

Muckit

Be NEARLY worth adopting a few!

An irish home and away. With cow ****e instead of sand!

whelan2

Keepgrowing wrote: »

All children should be on the books as soon as is allowed. Usually 15 or so. Can pay up to €10k before tax.

Personally I wouldn't be in favour of putting that kind of money into a kids ac but I'd use towards their education.

4 kids is up to €40k tax free out of the business, well worth considering.

Accountant here was reluctant to do anything until eldest lad reached 15. Have heard of other people doing it from when they are younger but I dont know if there would be any benefits. Eldest lad here is very sensible, money wont be blown.Also he knows a good few lads working at home and getting nothing so is happy out

Buford T. Justice XIX

Keepgrowing wrote: »

All children should be on the books as soon as is allowed. Usually 15 or so. Can pay up to €10k before tax.

Personally I wouldn't be in favour of putting that kind of money into a kids ac but I'd use towards their educationleaving cert holiday/Subaru Impreza/drink&drugs&rocknroll.

4 kids is up to €40k tax free out of the business, well worth considering.

Fyp:P

Keepgrowing

Muckit wrote: »

Be NEARLY worth adopting a few!

An irish home and away. With cow ****e instead of sand!

I'll send you a few

Muckit

Keepgrowing wrote: »

I'll send you a few

No bother. I'd say they're good workers.

Keepgrowing

Muckit wrote: »

No bother. I'd say they're good workers.

A mixed bunch 2 super and 2 need a toe every time you'd see them because if they're not going to cause trouble they're coming from it

Keepgrowing

whelan2 wrote: »

Accountant here was reluctant to do anything until eldest lad reached 15. Have heard of other people doing it from when they are younger but I dont know if there would be any benefits. Eldest lad here is very sensible, money wont be blown.Also he knows a good few lads working at home and getting nothing so is happy out

Mine aren't old enough yet to be on the books but when they do I'll be holding the money and using it. I personally wouldn't be in favour of kids working in my business getting a wage.

Their job is to muck in help where needed and learn the value of work. I'd see it more as a way of getting money out of the farm tax free to spend on their education etc which isn't tax deductible.

whelan2

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Mine aren't old enough yet to be on the books but when they do I'll be holding the money and using it. I personally wouldn't be in favour of kids working in my business getting a wage.

Their job is to muck in help where needed and learn the value of work. I'd see it more as a way of getting money out of the farm tax free to spend on their education etc which isn't tax deductible.

I have seen many lads worked to the bone on their home farm not getting a penny and end up hating farm life/family for it. I dont want any of my kids to be treated like that . Anyway I see paying my kids as an investment in their future whatever they decide to do, there's more to life than farming and being made work for nothing. Each to their own

Keepgrowing

whelan2 wrote: »

I have seen many lads worked to the bone on their home farm not getting a penny and end up hating farm life/family for it. I dont want any of my kids to be treated like that . Anyway I see paying my kids as an investment in their future whatever they decide to do, there's more to life than farming and bein made work for nothing. Each to their own

Couldn't agree more. My best mate was treated really badly and it just sickened him in the end. He left but it was too late, it absolutely broke him.

My point is I wouldn't nor could I afford to put 10k per child into their own accounts and leave them in control of it.

When they're 15/16 working here for the summer they'll be taking someone else's job so they'll have to knuckle down, earn it and pay their own way.

The kids here get a weekly allowance that starts at max every Monday morning and it's their behaviour that dictates how much of it they get every Sunday. They do jobs but don't/won't get paid for them, my view is they're part of a family and as such do what needs doing. When they are older this will change but they'll never be on a full salary here unless they pay their share of the bills. It's how I was trained, rightly or wrongly.

whelan2

He doesn't get 10k into his account. He gets a wage which I would be paying someone doing similar hours to what he is doing. He is a part time worker at school. I was always paid when I was his age .

Base price

whelan2 wrote: »

He doesn't get 10k into his account. He gets a wage which I would be paying someone doing similar hours to what he is doing. He is a part time worker at school. I was always paid when I was his age .

Years ago I used to help a local dairy farmer in the evening and weekends at calving time - feeding/rearing calves. When his eldest became old enough (15yo) to take on the responsibility I imparted as much knowledge to her as possible as she was interested and willing to learn. The following Spring everything started well and the daughter was working away after school and on weekend mornings. The dad phoned me one Saturday to see if I could give him a dig out, when I arrived there was no sign of the young one in the yard. He told me that she had walked "off the job" and when I asked him why he admitted that he had not been paying her.
Needless to say he was red faced after I had finished admonishing him. Within a hour the daughter was back at her job with a guarantee for the back pay and a agreement for a weekly wage. From memory it was €60 a week until the calves were weaned off milk.

Keepgrowing

Base price wrote: »

Years ago I used to help a local dairy farmer in the evening and weekends at calving time - feeding/rearing calves. When his eldest became old enough (15yo) to take on the responsibility I imparted as much knowledge to her as possible as she was interested and willing to learn. The following Spring everything started well and the daughter was working away after school and on weekend mornings. The dad phoned me one Saturday to see if I could give him a dig out, when I arrived there was no sign of the young one in the yard. He told me that she had walked "off the job" and when I asked him why he admitted that he had not been paying her.
Needless to say he was red faced after I had finished admonishing him. Within a hour the daughter was back at her job with a guarantee for the back pay and a agreement for a weekly wage. From memory it was €60 a week until the calves were weaned off milk.

She needed a kick up the ass

charolais0153

Keepgrowing wrote: »

She needed a kick up the ass

Sound like aulf lad

mf240

Base price wrote: »

Years ago I used to help a local dairy farmer in the evening and weekends at calving time - feeding/rearing calves. When his eldest became old enough (15yo) to take on the responsibility I imparted as much knowledge to her as possible as she was interested and willing to learn. The following Spring everything started well and the daughter was working away after school and on weekend mornings. The dad phoned me one Saturday to see if I could give him a dig out, when I arrived there was no sign of the young one in the yard. He told me that she had walked "off the job" and when I asked him why he admitted that he had not been paying her.
Needless to say he was red faced after I had finished admonishing him. Within a hour the daughter was back at her job with a guarantee for the back pay and a agreement for a weekly wage. From memory it was €60 a week until the calves were weaned off milk.

Have no kids. But I think of they want to be paid for work done then they should be paying for their meals and paying rent. It wouldn't pay you to rear them otherwise.

Avatar MIA

Perfectly legit.

Couple of things. The child/employee needs to be doing work and needs to be paid, full PAYE system needs to be set up and payslip issued.

Sam Kade

Muckit wrote: »

Be NEARLY worth adopting a few!

An irish home and away. With cow ****e instead of sand!

You'd need to choose them carefully or you could end up paying a wage and get f all work in return Most youngsters nowadays wouldn't want to get their hands dirty.

Farrell

Keepgrowing wrote: »

She needed a kick up the ass

Does she?
There was a succession thread where a comment made "Child works hard for no reward & anytime they'd mentioned a better way they would be told this is how things are done when I'm in charge & you can do it your way when you're in charge, when the father handed over the child was late 40's /early 50's & had given their best years & health.
Life's short, I did farming before & after school & in free time, but that was then this is now

Base price

Keepgrowing wrote: »

She needed a kick up the ass

Do you really think so? The dad (who was the eldest brother of a friend) was lucky I didn't give him a kick in the bollox.
He was prepared to pay me yet somehow thought his daughter should do it for nothing. I can appreciate that I was experienced but he still should have made the effort to pay her something.

Farrell

mf240 wrote: »

Have no kids. But I think of they want to be paid for work done then they should be paying for their meals and paying rent. It wouldn't pay you to rear them otherwise.

A wage doesn't have to be a working persons payment, but something to get appreciation that you have to work for things.
Something I never learned was how to deal with money, learning how to save, budget & deal with money.

Keepgrowing

Farrell wrote: »

Does she?
There was a succession thread where a comment made "Child works hard for no reward & anytime they'd mentioned a better way they would be told this is how things are done when I'm in charge & you can do it your way when you're in charge, when the father handed over the child was late 40's /early 50's & had given their best years & health.
Life's short, I did farming before & after school & in free time, but that was then this is now

Look I get the point but I wonder what her reaction would be when she asks Daddy or Mammy for €300 to buy the latest Hollister and get a refusal.

If your son/daughter is full/part time and committed that should get some pay. If it's their career they need to pay themselves.

Cousins young lad 24 took to handing in a time sheet, was tolerated for a week or 2 and then he was told to sling his hook, find accommodation and pay all his bills. He wasn't long readjusting his expectations

farisfat

If you can't do the job yourself or afford to pay someone it ain't worth doing.
Let it be family or not.

Base price

mf240 wrote: »

Have no kids. But I think of they want to be paid for work done then they should be paying for their meals and paying rent. It wouldn't pay you to rear them otherwise.

Jaysus, that's the sorta talk my ex used to say :mad:

Username John

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Look I get the point but I wonder what her reaction would be when she asks Daddy or Mammy for €300 to buy the latest Hollister and get a refusal.

If your son/daughter is full/part time and committed that should get some pay. If it's their career they need to pay themselves.

Cousins young lad 24 took to handing in a time sheet, was tolerated for a week or 2 and then he was told to sling his hook, find accommodation and pay all his bills. He wasn't long readjusting his expectations

If he was 24, was he working at home full time?

What should his expectations have been? It sounds like there could have been blame on both sides maybe?

I think there is a difference between helping out and working part time. Like you say, all down to expectations... but if someone is expected to work part time, then they should be paid for it...

Not sure what you mean by "If it's their career they need to pay themselves" ?

freedominacup

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Look I get the point but I wonder what her reaction would be when she asks Daddy or Mammy for €300 to buy the latest Hollister and get a refusal.

If your son/daughter is full/part time and committed that should get some pay. If it's their career they need to pay themselves.

Cousins young lad 24 took to handing in a time sheet, was tolerated for a week or 2 and then he was told to sling his hook, find accommodation and pay all his bills. He wasn't long readjusting his expectations

My two are on the job early a.m. tomorrow. They'll be paid for the man they're replacing. I doubt either of them will farm but they're well entitled to the wages. Other people aren't there someone has to do the work. The biggest problem in Irish dairying is too many people willing to work for f'all. You've said it yourself as a matter of pride that the first person to get paid every month is yourself. I have I hang ups about paying the kids must just make sure that I record payments to eldest as he's just turned fifteen. He'll definitely be getting max payment in the books from now on. Where it goes will be up to his mother. She's the accountant.

Grueller

When the time comes here they will be on the books. They will be paid the money in two ways. An allowance that myself and the wife deem appropriate for their age and secondly a portion into a long term locked account to help with travel, education, deposit on a house or whatever other pressing needs they may have at that time.

J.O. Farmer

Farrell wrote: »

A wage doesn't have to be a working persons payment, but something to get appreciation that you have to work for things.

One of the most sensible posts on the thread. When I was growing up I got pocket money and was expected to help out and do jobs. I.e. I had to earn my pocket money. There was never a correlation between hours worked and money earned nor should there have been when it wasn't just confined to the farm.
If I did a big job I might get an extra bit but that was up to my parents. If it makes sense from a tax point of view then paying children makes sense especially if done in such a way as that some money is placed in trust for expenses later in life.
To those who think I feed and clothe my kids and they should happily work for nothing just remember they'll choose your nursing home.

Sunny Dayz

If you are putting the kids through the books as farm hands, they are not entitled to a PAYE tax credit if employed by a parent. They would only be entitled to use their single tax credit against the farm employment.