Moving off without accelerating

Ninjavampire

I'm halfway through my ADI lessons and worry I have been moving off incorrectly.

To start off the car, I release the clutch to the biting point, then the car starts to roll. I then proceed to release the clutch even more, until it's off completely, then accelerate or brake as necessary.

From what I have been reading online however, everything seems to mention giving the car some revs before releasing the clutch, but I find the car will cut out if I do this, and that it doesn't seem to be necessary, even on small inclines/ hills.

Am I learning this incorrectly? My ADI doesn't mention it when I drive so I felt like I was doing alright until I researched it independently. I also do this in both his test car and my mother's car which I am insured on.

Thanks!

James Forde

You can get away with this in Diesel cars, but you need some acceleration in a petrol car.

Skommando

General advice is as you say, but from time to time, it depends on the car, the fuel, the engine, and the gradient.
So, some cars will, on a level or slightly downward gradient, will move off without any revs, some need more revs than others, especially if starting up from cold. The main thing is achieving a smooth controlled move off, without revving the dung out of the car granny style, or juddering the clutch, if you achieve that, that's all you really have to worry about.
Happy driving.

Ninjavampire

Thanks for the advice guys. I think I may have taken the slightest slope on my drive way for granted, which was aiding in moving the car off.

J_R

Hi,

If you are stalling because you first rev the engine you are doing something wrong. By first revving the engine you are putting more power at your disposal, the more power the more flexible and forgiving the engine and therefore should be much less likely to stall.

Learner drivers should always rev the engine to a nice happy sound before finding the bite.

By revving first there is one less decision to make - get into a routine, always rev, not have to decide whither it is necessary or not. Several factors can influence the level of power needed to move smoothly off. By "setting the gas" all of these are covered.

In the test you will not be marked if you always rev, however you may if you do not. And in general everyday driving it is much safer smoother driving.

I think it is very remiss of some driving instructors not to teach their pupils to "Set the Gas" when they know that the pupils will have trouble when they switch to a petrol car. They should be teaching them to drive any car not just the school's Corsa and its rough diesel.

Ninjavampire

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

If you are stalling because you first rev the engine you are doing something wrong. By first revving the engine you are putting more power at your disposal, the more power the more flexible and forgiving the engine and therefore should be much less likely to stall.

Learner drivers should always rev the engine to a nice happy sound before finding the bite.

By revving first there is one less decision to make - get into a routine, always rev, not have to decide whither it is necessary or not. Several factors can influence the level of power needed to move smoothly off. By "setting the gas" all of these are covered.

In the test you will not be marked if you always rev, however you may if you do not. And in general everyday driving it is much safer smoother driving.

I think it is very remiss of some driving instructors not to teach their pupils to "Set the Gas" when they know that the pupils will have trouble when they switch to a petrol car. They should be teaching them to drive any car not just the school's Corsa and its rough diesel.

Thanks for the advice. I definitely find myself under reving at times and use the acceleratator after the clutch everytime. My driving instructor is a good teacher, he just skims over somethings and is more focused on the rules of the road and observation than the actual operation of the car.

pablo128

Ninjavampire wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. I definitely find myself under reving at times and use the acceleratator after the clutch everytime. My driving instructor is a good teacher, he just skims over somethings and is more focused on the rules of the road and observation than the actual operation of the car.

In a way he is right. The operation of the car is the easy bit, and you probably have that almost perfect. I'm guessing you probably haven't driven a petrol car? Most cars are diesel powered nowadays and they have much more low down power.

Could you go out in the car with its main driver and watch how they go about moving off from a standstill? That way you're not paying 30 euro or so per hour for someone to show you.

NYCKILDARE

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

I think it is very remiss of some driving instructors not to teach their pupils to "Set the Gas" when they know that the pupils will have trouble when they switch to a petrol car. They should be teaching them to drive any car not just the school's Corsa and its rough diesel.

From my own personal experience I completed all my EDT and pre test lessons with a large driving school in Kildare. The school itself had roughly 16 different driving instructors and cars with almost all of them being petrol. I know of other driving instructors who only use petrol cars so that students learn properly and not with the "ease" of a diesel car. So not all driving instructors use diesel and the vast majority in Kildare/Offaly use petrol.

s15r330

James Forde wrote: »

You can get away with this in Diesel cars, but you need some acceleration in a petrol car.

No, you don't. It is harder but you don't "need" it.

James Forde

s15r330 wrote: »

No, you don't. It is harder but you don't "need" it.

You don't need acceleration/revs when moving off in a petrol car?

s15r330

James Forde wrote: »

You don't need acceleration/revs when moving off in a petrol car?

No, it is possible to take off in a petrol car without touching the accelerator! Takes more control than a diesel but it is possible.

pablo128

s15r330 wrote: »

No, it is possible to take off in a petrol car without touching the accelerator! Takes more control than a diesel but it is possible.

It might be possible but this is the 'learning to drive' forum, and its bad advice for someone wanting to pass their test.

s15r330

pablo128 wrote: »

It might be possible but this is the 'learning to drive' forum, and its bad advice for someone wanting to pass their test.

Obviously they aren't going to try it in their test.
But if someone could master it, doesn't it show a greater degree of control which is a good thing.
Was just saying that it can be done.

Jimmy Garlic

s15r330 wrote: »

No, it is possible to take off in a petrol car without touching the accelerator! Takes more control than a diesel but it is possible.

It's a bad idea.. Some petrol cars can do it not bother, I had an 1.3 Hyundai Assent that could it (on a level surface) years ago. Most petrol cars can't do it without stalling or spluttering. Putting unnecessary stress on components (like your clutch) is completely pointless.

J_R

s15r330 wrote: »

Obviously they aren't going to try it in their test.
But if someone could master it, doesn't it show a greater degree of control which is a good thing.
Was just saying that it can be done.

Hi,

No it doesn't. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the dynamics involved and much less skill.

To minimise fuel consumption a car's idling revs is factory set to be as low as possible. Just enough to "tick" smoothly over but with enough of a safety margin to cover all the ancillary equipment. If no revs applied in moving off it is this safety margin that is used to move almost a ton deadweight.

Equating a car to a horse. Moving off with no revs would equal an old feeble nag, ask it to move it might immediately die, if it does manage to move it will can only plod slowly off down the road. However giving the same car some revs, it now becomes a lively young filly, eager to go. She will take a little more skill to control but a competent instructor could teach this necessary skill in mere minutes.

Give her gas.

s15r330

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

No it doesn't. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the dynamics involved and much less skill.

To minimise fuel consumption a car's idling revs is factory set to be as low as possible. Just enough to "tick" smoothly over but with enough of a safety margin to cover all the ancillary equipment. If no revs applied in moving off it is this safety margin that is used to move almost a ton deadweight.

Equating a car to a horse. Moving off with no revs would equal an old feeble nag, ask it to move it might immediately die, if it does manage to move it will can only plod slowly off down the road. However giving the same car some revs, it now becomes a lively young filly, eager to go. She will take a little more skill to control but a competent instructor could teach this necessary skill in mere minutes.

Give her gas.

Jeez I just said it can be done not to do it every time you take off.
Also, of course it shows greater clutch control if you can do it.

J_R

s15r330 wrote: »

Jeez I just said it can be done not to do it every time you take off.
Also, of course it shows greater clutch control if you can do it.

Hi,

But it does not show greater clutch control, you are controlling LESS power. Controlling greater power shows confidence and better control.

ligerdub

I think I may know the problem. When I first learned to drive I found that as I revved up the gas first I found that I took both feet off both pedals as my brain hadn't adjusted to revving on one and lifting on the other. I'd let go off the gas and come off the clutch quickly.

Jimmy Garlic

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

But it does not show greater clutch control, you are controlling LESS power. Controlling greater power shows confidence and better control.

What's the point though? In order for it to work the clutch has to be slipped. Why you want to do that on a regular basis?

J_R

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

What's the point though? In order for it to work the clutch has to be slipped. Why you want to do that on a regular basis?

Hi,

I do not understand. do you believe that if you do not rev you do not slip the clutch ? That it is only necessary to slip the clutch if you first rev the engine. ??

If you want to know why do I (almost) always rev

I like to move off safely, hence the car is under my full control with power in reserve.
I like to move off relatively briskly
I like to get up to cruising speed, hence economic speed as soon as possible
I like to cause minimum wear and tear to my car.

To achieve all the above I very simply follow best practice in car control as espoused by all experts:-
.
I set the gas first.

Finally, talk of petrol and diesel engines is really irrelevant. I sat, and passed, two advanced driving tests. One in a petrol car. a VW 1.4L Polo, the other a 140 BHP Golf diesel. I behaved exactly the same in both, I "Set the Gas" first.

Jimmy Garlic

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

I do not understand. do you believe that if you do not rev you do not slip the clutch ? That it is only necessary to slip the clutch if you first rev the engine. ??

On take of the car should in quick sequence be revved a bit more than idle, depress clutch, into first, release handbrake, then release clutch briskly and depress accelerator simultaneously. People 'ride the clutch' (take too long to release the clutch pedal fully) burn out their clutches and clutch release bearings prematurely. People who 'ride the clutch' in order to take off when the engine is idling are costing themselves money, it's silly and pointless.

J_R

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

On take of the car should in quick sequence be revved a bit more than idle, depress clutch, into first, release handbrake, then release clutch briskly and depress accelerator simultaneously. People 'ride the clutch' (take too long to release the clutch pedal fully) burn out their clutches and clutch release bearings prematurely. People who 'ride the clutch' in order to take off when the engine is idling are costing themselves money, it's silly and pointless.

Hi,

Thanks for that. I called the above method the "Smash and Grab". You should see the results of an inexperienced learner driver attempting that method on a steep hill. :eek:

Jimmy Garlic

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

Thanks for that. I called the above method the "Smash and Grab". You should see the results of an inexperienced learner driver attempting that method on a steep hill. :eek:

I am not saying to jump off the clutch instantaneously, I'm saying completely release it in one quick fluid movement then use the accelerator to control speed. That's what the accelerator is for;) If you are in the business of teaching people how to drive you are not going to agree with me, and you'd be right not to, because teaching that method on day one might produce unintended results. Riding the clutch is grand in the initial stages of learning, but it's a bad habit when it goes beyond that. The clutches in driving instructor cars don't tend to last too long.

J_R

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

I am not saying to jump off the clutch instantaneously, I'm saying completely release it in one quick fluid movement then use the accelerator to control speed. That's what the accelerator is for;) If you are in the business of teaching people how to drive you are not going to agree with me, and you'd be right not to, because teaching that method on day one might produce unintended results. Riding the clutch is grand in the initial stages of learning, but it's a bad habit when it goes beyond that. The clutches in driving instructor cars don't tend to last too long.

Hi,

You are partly correct, I would never dream of ever teaching that method. Best practice is the method worked out by the experts. It is very very basic common sense.

1. You first set the power of the engine for the task you are going to ask it to do. (Set the Gas)
2. You connect up that power. (Find the holding point)
3. Quick check all around to see if it is safe to go. (MSM - and NOT MSMM)
4. If safe to go indicate and away you go.

Your method does involve clutch slippage. It would be physically impossible to connect a spinning engine flywheel to a stationary drive shaft without slippage.

Re driving school clutches. My car is now almost eight years old. A Series 1 BMW petrol. Three of those years was used as a driving school car, remainder as a "private". I rev the engine find the holding point every time I move off, taught my pupils the same. Plus made absolutely certain pupils had perfected clutch control before leaving the nursery route. So, it has done a lot of clutch work. Still got all its original parts

It is misuse of the clutch that burns it out

Jimmy Garlic

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

You are partly correct, I would never dream of ever teaching that method. Best practice is the method worked out by the experts. It is very very basic common sense.

1. You first set the power of the engine for the task you are going to ask it to do. (Set the Gas)
2. You connect up that power. (Find the holding point)
3. Quick check all around to see if it is safe to go. (MSM - and NOT MSMM)
4. If safe to go indicate and away you go.

Your method does involve clutch slippage. It would be physically impossible to connect a spinning engine flywheel to a stationary drive shaft without slippage.

Re driving school clutches. My car is now almost eight years old. A Series 1 BMW petrol. Three of those years was used as a driving school car, remainder as a "private". I rev the engine find the holding point every time I move off, taught my pupils the same. Plus made absolutely certain pupils had perfected clutch control before leaving the nursery route. So, it has done a lot of clutch work. Still got all its original parts

It is misuse of the clutch that burns it out

Yeah, you're right.. You know what your at, it's your job. I am not trying to be a smart arse. I do a lot of driving and I don't burn out clutches prematurely. Some people use the clutch as a way to control speed.. I am sure you must have hear the term 'riding the clutch' before.

Pat Dunne

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

On take of the car should in quick sequence be revved a bit more than idle, depress clutch, into first, release handbrake, then release clutch briskly and depress accelerator simultaneously. People 'ride the clutch' (take too long to release the clutch pedal fully) burn out their clutches and clutch release bearings prematurely. People who 'ride the clutch' in order to take off when the engine is idling are costing themselves money, it's silly and pointless.

Why would you not bring the clutch pedal up to "biting point" and bring the RPM up to an appropriate level for the road conditions, before releasing the hand brake?
I'm afraid to say but to my way of thinking and how I was taught (many years ago), your method seems a wee bit harsh on both your clutch and gearbox.

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Some people use the clutch as a way to control speed.. I am sure you must have hear the term 'riding the clutch' before.

As for "riding the clutch", grand for the Circuit of Ireland or Mondello Park