Portable generator?

pablo128

This is probably a stupid question, but is it possible to carry a portable petrol/diesel generator which would give a sufficient output to charge an EV on the side of the road?

I'm just curious, that's all.

DrPhilG

I imagine it's possible, but I suspect it would deliver such a slow rate that you'd be quicker pushing the car to the measures that charger instead!

Nekarsulm

Don't know anything about EV's and their charging systems (Sir Liamalot is probably your man) but I wouldnt run anything more delicate than an angle grinder or drill off a Genny.

darragh o meara

I've seen a vid in YouTube with some guy charging an EV from a generator, however unless you have a really powerful one, I couldn't see it having the current output to charge an EV with any sense of speed. A generator with the required output would be pretty big.

I'm sure it would do the job but only as a temporary measure.

heliguyheliguy

Yes it is possible, I have such a setup for emergency use and or off grid camping, the small quite portable generator I have fits easily in the boot and charges at 6amps this is a 10 hour charge from empty to full but that rarely happens.
How practical it is is questionable but it is possible.

stesaurus

Yes, it's called a BMW i3 REx

It would be a bit pointless for emergencies but for planned stops if really off the grid like heliguy then it sounds like a good option. For emergencies then a flatbed to the nearest charger makes more sense.

cros13

For emergency use the AA in the UK has a few vans equipped with a portable rapid charger.

They've seen little demand though.

I think those portable DC chargers are made in Carlow of all places.

jerryg

Something like this:
http://gajitz.com/little-generator-trailer-lets-electric-cars-go-the-distance/
Sort of defeats the purpose!

pablo128

jerryg wrote: »

Something like this:
http://gajitz.com/little-generator-trailer-lets-electric-cars-go-the-distance/
Sort of defeats the purpose!

I disagree. As is said in the article, the idea is that you rent it for occasional longer journeys. Exactly the kind of thing I had in mind.

It looks kinda cool too.

cros13

It's a bit mad TBH... a solution in search of a problem.

Even if massive increases in pack capacity weren't happening, and they are, There are rapid chargers stretching from Ireland to Poland in the west, Barcelona in the south and the high Arctic in the north.

There are 15 350kW rapid chargers under construction right now with eight test sites. And from February, Tesla will have superchargers from Dublin to Minsk.

Before the first production unit of that generator trailer nonsense is ever made, there won't be any reason for it to exist.

BoatMad

Not to mention that the Leaf isn't approved to tow anything !

heliguyheliguy

Another possible use for a small generator is the case of power cuts. If you need your car for work in the morning and the esb goes out it's nice to have a backup plan, a bonus is you can also keep the lights on and the fridge cold.
This is only going to be very occasional use if ever, so maybe not worth the investment in a portable generator but if you have one anyway it's nice to have a way to utilize it as much as possible.

cros13

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

Another possible use for a small generator is the case of power cuts. If you need your car for work in the morning and the esb goes out it's nice to have a backup plan, a bonus is you can also keep the lights on and the fridge cold.
This is only going to be very occasional use if ever, so maybe not worth the investment in a portable generator but if you have one anyway it's nice to have a way to utilize it as much as possible.

A 14kWh Tesla powerwall 2 battery for the house is coming in at ~£5k in the UK.

Enough to power the typical Irish home for up to 2 days or the car for up to 100km. Outside of emergency use it will reduce your electricity bills by either increasing self-consumption of microgenerated power or time shifting consumption to the nightsaver rate.

Need more power output or runtime? Daisychain up to nine of them together.

Batterien uber alle!

unkel

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

the small quite portable generator I have fits easily in the boot and charges at 6amps this is a 10 hour charge from empty to full

That seems extremely optimistic! Any link to the genny that you have?

The basic cheap petrol ones that are for sale in Aldi / Lidl sometimes have peak power of 800W or thereabouts, so probably about 600W continuous. That would fully charge a 24kW Leaf in about 80 hours or so. I guess charging for an hour would be enough to drive it for a few km.

BoatMad

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

Yes it is possible, I have such a setup for emergency use and or off grid camping, the small quite portable generator I have fits easily in the boot and charges at 6amps this is a 10 hour charge from empty to full but that rarely happens.
How practical it is is questionable but it is possible.

Not a chance this is accurate , at 10 A 24 kWh leaf takes over 12 hours to charge , at 6A , which is the minimum that the leaf can be commanded to draw ,it would take n excess of 26 hours.

Note that you would have to acquire a specific 6A granny cable , I'm not aware there are any that low. Most EVSEs in granny cables are 9-10 A

No small 1kw can actually handle continuous peak power at Ikw , not to mention having to refuel them every hour or so

heliguyheliguy

BoatMad wrote: »

Not a chance this is accurate , at 10 A 24 kWh leaf takes over 12 hours to charge , at 6A , which is the minimum that the leaf can be commanded to draw ,it would take n excess of 26 hours.

Note that you would have to acquire a specific 6A granny cable , I'm not aware there are any that low. Most EVSEs in granny cables are 9-10 A

No small 1kw can actually handle continuous peak power at Ikw , not to mention having to refuel them every hour or so

Wtf!
ignorance is irritating!

1: I don't own a leaf.
2: Not all electric cars are Leafs.
3: My granny cable has a 3 position switch 6/10/16 amp.
4: you not being aware dosen't mean much of anything.
5:Where did you get the idea that it was a 1 kw generator?
6: I own a 2.2kw portable generator it's max load run time is 4 hours but at 6 amps it runs for 6 hours on its built in tank. for longer runs it can be connected to its external tank.

It is apparent from your accusation, that you have very little knowledge of the subject. May I suggest that simply asking for clarification on matters that you do not understand is a more appropriate response than to make accusations of lies!

KCross

@heliguyheliguy, would you have a link to the generator you have.
I'd be interested, at the right price, not just for the car but for running a few essentials during a power cut.

heliguyheliguy

Its the aldi version of the common honda eu series I think cost about 400 euro or less but I cant really remember tbh. https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Garden-Outdoors/Honda-EU20i-2kVA-1600w-Petrol-Portable-Generator/B000VDFQDW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482422671&sr=8-1&keywords=generator+honda.

yannakis

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

Yes it is possible, I have such a setup for emergency use and or off grid camping, the small quite portable generator I have fits easily in the boot and charges at 6amps this is a 10 hour charge from empty to full but that rarely happens.
How practical it is is questionable but it is possible.

Have you estimated the amount of fuel required for a full charge using the generator by any chance?

heliguyheliguy

YanisK wrote: »

Have you estimated the amount of fuel required for a full charge using the generator by any chance?

No, I haven't done any tracking of fuel costs, I keep a couple of jerry cans on hand for my fuel needs lawn mower, chainsaw, leaf blower and generator so I'm not sure what goes where.
I can say that it is not enough to be worried about for occasional use but a lot more than it costs to plug in.

unkel

YanisK wrote: »

Have you estimated the amount of fuel required for a full charge using the generator by any chance?

That's not really relevant, is it? Using a genny is obviously only an exceptional / emergency solution. I doubt someone would use it regularly to do a full charge for an EV

Quite a clever thing to have in the boot of your EV though, with a jerrycan of petrol. Would take away a lot of the potential range anxiety. For €400, that is certainly something I would buy and stick in the boot if I ever purchased an EV...

yannakis

unkel wrote: »

That's not really relevant, is it? Using a genny is obviously only an exceptional / emergency solution. I doubt someone would use it regularly to do a full charge for an EV

Quite a clever thing to have in the boot of your EV though, with a jerrycan of petrol. Would take away a lot of the potential range anxiety. For €400, that is certainly something I would buy and stick in the boot if I ever purchased an EV...

It is relevant enough to some areas of my brain if you don't mind :rolleyes:

My next question would be how much MPGs will carrying around a generator cost you :pac:

heliguyheliguy

YanisK wrote: »

It is relevant enough to some areas of my brain if you don't mind :rolleyes:

My next question would be how much MPGs will carrying around a generator cost you :pac:

I don't know, If you want to know you could estimate the weight of your normal load and the range you normally achieve to calculate kilometers per kilogram; then estimate the weight of your genset and fuel to calculate its influence on range. my guess is that it would not be more than the penalty of carrying a passenger.
Average car weight : 1500kg
Approx weight of 2kw suitcase generator: 30kg
Approx weight of 20 liters of petrol : 20kg
50kg/1500kg * 100 = 3.3% loss in range

I don't carry it around in the boot all the time. When i say emergency use I mean in the event of a power cut at home.

I think it would be faster to get a tow truck than to charge on the side of the road unless you are pretty close to home anyway. ie if within a few kilometers of home it may be quicker to have a friend collect and drop the generator to you and then charge for half an hour to get you home. (tow trucks can take hours to show up)

For planned use I mean going somewhere outside of the return range of my car that there is no other source of power. ie off grid camping, hiking, hill walking, mountaineering or fishing; pick your own outdoor activity there are lots of reasons to spend hours out in the middle of nowhere.

Edit:
Maybe it would be worth carrying around if it helped a new user get through range anxiety.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Quite a clever thing to have in the boot of your EV though, with a jerrycan of petrol. Would take away a lot of the potential range anxiety. For €400, that is certainly something I would buy and stick in the boot if I ever purchased an EV...

Not sure I would have it in the boot. It is relatively small but still taking up a decent amount of space for a once in a blue moon event.

I wouldnt like the idea of carrying around a jerrycan of petrol either, for safety reasons.

I think I would use it as a substitute for calling a flatbed. If you run out of juice and its out of hours you could be waiting a long time for a flatbed to arrive. Call home and get the ICE to bring the generator and charge for whatever length of time is required to get me to a chargepoint.

And, of course, use the generator for domestic power cuts to power a few essentials. Must see if there is one at a reasonable price though.

KCross

Any of them up around 2kW are €600+

€630 http://www.jebbtools.ie/small-generator
£700 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0073DQ13C

heliguyheliguy

KCross wrote: »

Any of them up around 2kW are €600+

€630 http://www.jebbtools.ie/small-generator
£700 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0073DQ13C

This is the one I was going to get before the aldi one came up. https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/DIY-Tools/CHAMPION-GENERATORS-72301i-Champion-Inverter/B01M063CKK/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1482493902&sr=8-8&keywords=inverter+generator

It gets good reviews and usually sells for under 400 sterling although its a lot higher now.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Call home and get the ICE to bring the generator and charge

Surely, that's cheating?

pwurple

What a ridiculous topic.

How thick would you need to be for this to happen? To not notice any of the 6 different displays/warnings of range, and end up on an isolated road out of juice, nowhere near even a socket on any building for a granny cable.

Unless we are talking some kind of apolocapse where there is no more electricity in the universe, I cannot see a use for this.

Are there really that many people that cannot read simple gauges? I'm amazed the country isn't littered with people after running out of diesel or petrol, stranded all over the place.

isnottheword

pwurple wrote: »

What a ridiculous topic... Unless we are talking some kind of apolocapse where there is no more electricity in the universe, I cannot see a use for this.

It may not be a workable solution - however, it is not a ridiculous topic.

pwurple wrote: »

How thick would you need to be for this to happen? To not notice any of the 6 different displays/warnings of range, and end up on an isolated road out of juice,

Very easily if you're driving rural roads out of hours.

pwurple wrote: »

Are there really that many people that cannot read simple gauges? I'm amazed the country isn't littered with people after running out of diesel or petrol, stranded all over the place.

What if you can read 'simple gauges' and the network lets you down? Additionally, some of us have T1/T2 cables - not granny cables (and yes, we have the option of going out and buying those too - but cables are not cheap - between home chargers, t1/t2 and granny cables, you could be down 1k if you got the whole set).

And the last point - it's easier for this to happen on stretches of road that you're not used to driving on.

You have to be somewhere really rural that you can't find a wall socket between the first warning of low battery and running out (35 km or so). Spend €330 for a portable EVSE "granny charger", 20 for a decent extension lead and Bob's your auntie. Then you can throw a tenner each time to the house/business owner for the juice and laugh all the way to the bank compared to the generator idea.

pablo128

samih wrote: »

You have to be somewhere really rural that you can't find a wall socket between the first warning of low battery and running out (35 km or so). Spend €330 for a portable EVSE "granny charger", 20 for a decent extension lead and Bob's your auntie. Then you can throw a tenner each time to the house/business owner for the juice and laugh all the way to the bank compared to the generator idea.

Or you could go up the mountains for a weekend camping and charge up the car with a Genny the day before you come back.

If some clown knocked on my door and asked could he plug in his car for a few hours, I know what I would tell him.

KCross

samih wrote: »

You have to be somewhere really rural that you can't find a wall socket between the first warning of low battery and running out (35 km or so). Spend €330 for a portable EVSE "granny charger", 20 for a decent extension lead and Bob's your auntie. Then you can throw a tenner each time to the house/business owner for the juice and laugh all the way to the bank compared to the generator idea.

At €330 your not far away from the cost of a generator, which importantly, has more uses than a granny charger. I wouldn't buy a generator just for the once in a blue moon event of running out of juice in the EV.

I think the most likely event for running out of juice in an EV is a rapid letting you down and it being out of hours. Getting to a 13A socket in that scenario may not always be possible. I think we all agree it would be a very rare occurrence but not impossible.

pablo128

pablo128 wrote: »

samih wrote: »

You have to be somewhere really rural that you can't find a wall socket between the first warning of low battery and running out (35 km or so). Spend €330 for a portable EVSE "granny charger", 20 for a decent extension lead and Bob's your auntie. Then you can throw a tenner each time to the house/business owner for the juice and laugh all the way to the bank compared to the generator idea.

Or you could go up the mountains for a weekend camping and charge up the car with a Genny the day before you come back.

If some clown knocked on my door and asked could he plug in his car for a few hours, I know what I would tell him.

Let's hope your house is not the only house for miles in rural Ireland so.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

samih wrote: »

You have to be somewhere really rural that you can't find a wall socket between the first warning of low battery and running out (35 km or so). Spend €330 for a portable EVSE "granny charger", 20 for a decent extension lead and Bob's your auntie. Then you can throw a tenner each time to the house/business owner for the juice and laugh all the way to the bank compared to the generator idea.

At €330 your not far away from the cost of a generator, which importantly, has more uses than a granny charger. I wouldn't buy a generator just for the once in a blue moon event of running out of juice in the EV.

I think the most likely event for running out of juice in an EV is a rapid letting you down and it being out of hours. Getting to a 13A socket in that scenario may not always be possible. I think we all agree it would be a very rare occurrence but not impossible.

How much would a EV compatible generator with an EVSE be? You need EVSE with both generator and the extension lead.

KCross

samih wrote: »

How much would a EV compatible generator with an EVSE be? You need EVSE with both generator and the extension lead.

A 2kW generator is €400+.
I don't know exactly on the granny cable. It came with my car.

The generator, for me, wouldn't be just for the car. I would have other uses for it. Spending €400 on a generator and another few hundred on a cable would make no sense just for the car.

unkel

pwurple wrote: »

I'm amazed the country isn't littered with people after running out of diesel or petrol, stranded all over the place.

Probably because all those thick people, like me, have a jerrycan with a few litres of petrol / diesel in the boot of their car

pwurple

unkel wrote: »

Probably because all those thick people, like me, have a jerrycan with a few litres of petrol / diesel in the boot of their car

:eek:
It's like something from a warzone. How often do you use it?

Doesn't letting a diesel run out of fuel suck dirt/sediment into the engine? Or is that a myth?

Del2005

pwurple wrote: »

Doesn't letting a diesel run out of fuel suck dirt/sediment into the engine? Or is that a myth?

You're sucking the sediment from the bottom of the tank when you let an ICE run low on fuel so there is a slight chance of causing damage to the engine, but its rare that it does much damage. What used to be the problem with oil burners was having to manually prime the system again and getting covered in diesel and engine grime, most modern oil burners self prime.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

pwurple wrote: »

Doesn't letting a diesel run out of fuel suck dirt/sediment into the engine? Or is that a myth?

You're sucking the sediment from the bottom of the tank when you let an ICE run low on fuel so there is a slight chance of causing damage to the engine,  but its rare that it does much damage.   What used to be the problem with oil burners was having to manually prime the system again and getting covered in diesel and engine grime, most modern oil burners self prime.

Any car that I have ever owned sucks diesel/petrol from the bottom of the tank (where there is a formed recess to allow fuel pooling in) regardless of how much fuel there is so the sediment thing is a myth. However if you run really low the pump may occasionally suck air instead of fuel and this affect both lubrication and cooling of the pump so there is some merit on this.

BoatMad

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

Wtf!
ignorance is irritating!

1: I don't own a leaf.
2: Not all electric cars are Leafs.
3: My granny cable has a 3 position switch 6/10/16 amp.
4: you not being aware dosen't mean much of anything.
5:Where did you get the idea that it was a 1 kw generator?
6: I own a 2.2kw portable generator it's max load run time is 4 hours but at 6 amps it runs for 6 hours on its built in tank. for longer runs it can be connected to its external tank.

It is apparent from your accusation, that you have very little knowledge of the subject. May I suggest that simply asking for clarification on matters that you do not understand is a more appropriate response than to make accusations of lies!

I'm only a 30 year experienced electronics engineer , and have designed EVSEs , I own ( sorry did own two of those cheapy generators ) I now own a genuine Honda 20i

2kw gennys , like the Honda are max continuous rated at 1600 watts , the cheapy /crappy Chinese knockoffs are great for 1-2 hours running , but sustained rated max ( typically also 1500-1600 w, but their spec sheets invariably lie ) running typically blows the invertor in fairly quick time as they can't handle the heat build up. The Honda ( I buy through the trade) , I think is over 1400 euros retail

I never suggested you had a leaf , I merely used the 24kwh leaf , which is the most common EV on Irish roads as a comparison .

The practical situation is 6 A charging , that will take hours to put any sort of range into the car , you'd be quicker calling the tow truck , 10 A charging s not possible with a 2kw generator

The fact remains EV drivers dont " run out " no more then ICE drivers do , an a 30 kWh leaf , on rural roads at 50-70 kWh , I have close to 200 Kim's of range , why would you ever , n any EV , put yourself in a situation where there was " zero " range

( and ps virtually no one carries spare petrol or diesel these days )

The generator is a nonsense idea , its a solution looking for a problem , and a bad solution at that

Ps. The crappy Chinese ones typically have trapezoidal wave output , and these actually can have poor results connected to switch mode EV chargers , typically resulting in poor performance ( less overall energy ) , also some EVs are not well corrected power factor wise and again the resulting performance will suffer from a power limited generator , as the max rating include reactive power.

Andy From Sligo

Well I have just found and read this thread all the way through and I am just happy no-one has posted "if you charge up your EV using a genny you will eff up your EV big time" and that the delicate electronics of an EV require a smooth 230v constant clean voltage and the genny gives out unclean voltage that will bugger up your EV and will be a very costly repair to put it right

more has been focused on how long it will take to charge the car up and how overkill it would be to drive around with a genny and a gallon of petrol in the boot rather than what damage it could do to your vehicle.

There is an issue I read somewhere that on the Renault Zoe's you can get a "battery charging impossible" when hooking up to street chargers and it points to the centre earth pin in the type 2 plug not getting a great contact with the socket on the Zoe, and that if its not getting a good earth it wont even start to charge

... which then leads me to ask , how does a genny get its earth from? - i mean its not like you are going to drive in a massive copper earth rod into the ground like - or is it bonded neutral to earth kind of way?

zilog_jones

I can't imagine it's a very good earth, whatever it is. If an EV needs a real sine-wave AC input I would hope it would just disable charging if the supply wasn't good enough, as opposed to actually breaking things.

Andy From Sligo

zilog_jones wrote: »

I can't imagine it's a very good earth, whatever it is. If an EV needs a real sine-wave AC input I would hope it would just disable charging if the supply wasn't good enough, as opposed to actually breaking things.

wonder if you put one of these Surge protector sockets on it before you plug in plug from granny cable if that would smooth out the voltage?

zilog_jones

Surge protectors don't do any smoothing, they just protect from surges

I don't think a power conditioner is going to fix a power source that isn't something resembling a pure sine wave, either.

Andy From Sligo

zilog_jones wrote: »

Surge protectors don't do any smoothing, they just protect from surges

I don't think a power conditioner is going to fix a power source that isn't something resembling a pure sine wave, either.

some of the better ones have RFI /EMI circuit in them , that's what I was thinking