toxic family situation

LegacyUser

Hiya, just writing out of desperation really. I tried to go and talk to a professional about this during the week and it went disastrously. I ended up storming out half way through the session because they just did Not get it. My brother is married to a horrible woman. She has caused so much hurt and pain in our family and he has made his bed and is going to lie in it now (in other words his loyalty is to her and their kids). I know that is as it should be but I don't see why she makes him choose. Her family are lauded and placed on a pedastel and invited to every little thing the kids do (like shows, birthdays etc) and we are treated like 2nd class citizens all the time. There are so many examples of this like all the photos in their house are of her family and friends, almost none of us. We hardly ever see the kids which breaks our heart. I'm finding it particulary difficult at the moment because I have kids of my own now and we all live in the same area so it's going to start affecting the next generation.

Reconciliation with this woman is not a possibility. I'm over a decade dealing with her now and she is an utter see you next Tuesday. There's no hope for any kind of relationship there. I just wish I coudl figure out a way to not let this issue get me down so much. My brother is a great guy and there was nothing between us growing up so I find it a huge sense of pain that we are not close as adults. There's no reason for us not to be close except for her. We have plenty in common etc. We lost our father this year and that has made all of this all the harder to bear. My own father was unbelievably loyal to his siblings and would never treat them this way. Family was everything to him and his last words to us were to support each other.
But things have actually gotten worse now than they ever were. I wish I coudl find a way to live around this issue and not let it bother me so much. Everything else in my life is great - my marriage, my kids, my job, my friends etc. But this issue breaks my heart

Big Bag of Chips

Realistically, what can you do about it? Your relationship with someone depends on their cooperation, and if you don't have their cooperation, you don't have a relationship. My dad's brother married a woman who has never spoken to us. Ever. She speaks to one sister and her family but the rest of us have zero relationship with her. I have no idea why. It has been going on since we were children. Growing up with knew we had cousins, very very occasionally my uncle would visit and bring one the eldest lad. I think I was early 30s before I met my other cousin.

But the thing is, we are all now adults and have a nice relationship with our cousins. We meet up at weddings, we organise random things to do together and we all get along really well. I still wouldn't be 100% confident of recognising their mother of I passed her on the street, but not having a relationship with her didn't mean we lost out on anything growing up. If anything it was better for our adult relationship with our cousins because we were never put in the middle of a row. We never heard anything bad about any of them. We just knew we didn't talk to them. I don't think anything really did happen, I just think she decided she didn't want to be part of our family, apart from one aunt for some reason!!

There is not a lot you can do. Back off and let your brother come to you if and when he wants. Your children won't miss out by not having them in their lives if they are surrounded by plenty of others. Actually in our case we all have a great relationship as cousins, and one time these cousins, who we didn't see, said they felt the missed out on all the cousin stuff we did growing up because we had all the stories and memories and they couldn't join in. So in fact they were the ones who lost out, not us. But that was their parents decision and nobody else could have influenced them in any way.

Nobody can fix this for you. Counsellors can't give you any solutions. All they can do is help you work through how to accept it for what it is.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the reply BBOC, I really appreciate it.
Do you have any insight into how your Dad felt about being somewhat estranged from his brother? I know irish men are not great at talking about that kind of stuff so maybe he didnt' talk about it but just curious (as I'm in your Dad's position)
Do you know if it affected his brother also ? Did they ever end up having any relationship?

Airyfairy12

I think families drift apart as they get older and start their own careers and families. Im only close to one of my cousins and one aunt on my mothers side and thats because my cousin and my auntie are constantly in my grannies house, otherwise id rearly see them, im not close to anybody on my dads side of the family, I might say hello if I pass them on the street but I wont stop for a chat, not on purpose we're just not close and only see each other at weddings and funerals. After my granny died my dad and his siblings all sort of drifted and havnt spoken in ages, they only stayed in contact because of my granny, its not on purpose,there was no falling out or anything its just what happens.

I also think that generally women are much closer and remain closer contact with their family, ive always been closer to my mams side of the family over my dads side, I just saw more of them growing up.

Why doesnt your brother ever bring the kids round to you or why dont you call up to him? I dont think you can shift the blame onto his wife, he's his own person and im sure he could make the effort if he wanted to.

You dont have to like his wife and she doesnt have to like you, theres plenty of people in my family that im not particularly fond of but I dont get worked up over it. Why dont you offer to take the kids to the cinema or something?

Ursus Horribilis

What were you hoping to get from the counselling session? Or indeed, what are you expecting your brother to do? From what you've told us, he's in a horrendous no-win situation here. We don't know what his marriage is like or what his wife has said to him. It's possible that he would like to see you all more often but that there's a price to pay. Losing you lot is a smaller price than losing his marriage and his kids.

The only thing I can suggest to you is that you keep the lines of communication open with your brother. None of us knows what goes on under his roof or indeed, what could happen in the future. It is sad that your children don't know their cousins well but it's probably not something that will bother them too much. Who knows what the future holds? Seeing as you live in the same area, it's possible that they might get to know each other outside of family circles anyway.

CiboC

As others have said, there is not a whole lot you can do.

My brother is married to a woman who is extremely 'challenging' to get on with. She is ultra combative, wanting to be seen as 'the best' at everything she does - wife, mother, daughter-in-law, everything. In the past she has made up blatant lies about things my kids have (not) done to make them look bad in relation to hers. She has a real chip on her shoulder about my wife, making snide under her breath comments about my wife, our kids and my wife's nationality (she is not from Ireland originally). All in all, a most unpleasant character.

This all started after I got married, she had her bigoted grudge against my wife from the beginning and once our kids arrived it got even worse.

We gave up trying with her years ago. They don't live in Ireland so it is not too much bother. At family occasions I have set myself a few ground rules, I will pretty much ignore most things. I have two 'lines in the sand':

- I will not stand for her making up stories about my kids. 2 years ago around the Christmas table after one blatant untruth I called her out on this. She loudly asked me was I calling her a liar, at which point I (loudly) told her that yes, that would be the word for someone who makes up untrue stories and tells them as if they were real. Amusingly enough no-one, including my brother, backed her up. She has a real grudge about that one still!

- If she makes any muttering nasty comments about my wife or her nationality I will loudly ask her to repeat it. She never has.

Interestingly enough, our kids get on very well so it is a real shame she is impossible to deal with. Also interesting is that her children are old enough now that they recognise this behaviour in their own mother and disapprove of it. I heard that, after the last time they met, her own kids were complaining about how their mother had 'ruined their time with their cousins'.

There may be still hope that it won't carry on to the next generation!

amtc

I didn't see either of my dad's brothers for years even though we all lived close. My dad couldn't stand one wife and my other uncle had a somewhat chaotic lifestyle having had four wives.

But at 40 I contacted my cousins and we meet up every month or so.

I've always had my mam's family even though they live abroad.

Big Bag of Chips

intertrade wrote: »

Do you have any insight into how your Dad felt about being somewhat estranged from his brother?...
Do you know if it affected his brother also ? Did they ever end up having any relationship?

They're both quiet enough men. Would have seen each other occasionally. If my uncle was passing he'd call in the odd time. They'd occasionally go somewhere together. My father would see his other siblings more often but more to do with circumstances than actual close relationships.

It's not like they'd all be calling to each other on a weekly basis, anyway. The wife made it slightly more difficult than if she had been a reasonable but it didn't hugely affect us... But that's coming from my perspective of being a child. As we started getting married she never came to weddings. My uncle always came and brought a friend who would have been a friend of the family.

My uncle is great craic and I love seeing him when I do. But it could be only once or twice a year. But that's fine. We're all adults. We all have stuff going on and a year or more could easily go by without us actually seeing most of our aunts, uncles and cousins. We still have a nice time every time we do meet up though and nothing is strained or awkward.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the replies.

Great to get the perspectives of people who have lived this situation in their own families. It's a first on both sides of my family for siblings to fall out (in living memory I mean) so I have no experience of it or how one negotiates the day-to-day awkwardness of it.

We all built our forever homes on family land so are each other's next door neighbours, kids in same school, all part of the same small close knit rural community. So seeing them and interacting with them is part of weekly, if not daily life. I suppose that's what I was hoping to get from the professional was some sort of daily coping tools. Our remaining parent our mother lives in the midst of us all so we will always cross each other's path through interaction with her. We're also firmly rooted in teh local community on both sides of our family so there are constant family events, community & school events, school run etc where we will always cross paths. They say 'out of sight out of mind' so I suppose the reverse is true too - always in sight, always on your mind.

But where I went wrong with the counsellor was getting into details of incidents that have occured, who said what to whom and what happened etc. That kind of thing cannot really be understood by a person totally new to the story, in the space of 1.5 hours. A lifetime of family bond plus over a decade of animosity cannot readily be explained to a stranger. So I realise now that if I am to try to seek help with it again in the future, I need to state at the outset that the relationship is not salvagable and there is no point in getting into a discussion of nitty gritty, it serves no end.

No as most of ye state here, the situation is what it is, it's by no means uncommon in irish soceity, even for family that live right longside each other. I do know one family in the village where they all lived on the same road and kids all the same local school as well and there was one family didn't speak to the others (again coz of an difficult woman who married one of the brothers) so I guess I have to accept that is us now. Acceptance is key I think, if I can get over that hurdle then I can start to find peace with the situation.

I think I need to look for help of the type where you reaffirm all the good things that you DO have in life, instead of focusing on the one you can't. Accept the things you cannot change and all that. It's a work in progress! Thanks so much for your insights and some blunt truths which I needed to hear

woodchuck

This is the part of your post that jumped out at me OP:

intertrade wrote: »

Her family are lauded and placed on a pedastel and invited to every little thing the kids do (like shows, birthdays etc) and we are treated like 2nd class citizens all the time. There are so many examples of this like all the photos in their house are of her family and friends, almost none of us. We hardly ever see the kids which breaks our heart.

You've made out like you have no interest in being friends with this women, so I think the core issue is that you want to see the kids more?

It's only natural that she would include her own family in these events. But the real question is, why hasn't your brother included you? I would think that it's really more his place than hers to include you...

Having said that, if you don't get on with this woman very well, maybe that's the reason he's not inviting you along. Could you talk to your brother? I assume he knows that you don't get along with her. But at least you could let him know that you'd like to be included in these events (sometimes guys are just clueless) and that you'll be civil to his wife.

December2012

She lives in between all of your family.

Around people who hate her.

Does she treat your brother badly? Or the kids badly?

You clearly can't stand her, so why do you expect to be at her special occasions at all?

All you can do is look at what you can bring positively to the situation.

Big Bag of Chips

All you can do is live your life. Be civil and polite whenever you do see each other and move along. If you don't get involved in the bitchiness then nobody can say anything to you. I am closer to my family than my husbands. My children know my nieces and nephews better than their cousins on the other side. Partly this is down to living closer to them, but largely its down to my husband not being all that bothered about visiting his siblings... And you know what, they're not all that bothered about visiting us!! I agree that its up to your brother to include you or if she doesn't want you in the house for whatever reasons then its up to your brother to come visit you. My children know one set of cousins well on my husband's side. Only because me and their mam (my husband's sister-in-law) are pretty good friends and we arrange to meet up. We see each other a lot more than our husbands, who are brothers, see each other. And our children only have a relationship because we see to it that they do. If it was left to our husbands, they wouldn't.

professore

woodchuck wrote: »

This is the part of your post that jumped out at me OP:



But the real question is, why hasn't your brother included you? I would think that it's really more his place than hers to include you....

I bet he wants to but every time she's "sick", had "planned something months ago" or some other excuse, and he just took her at face value. Eventually the man just stops trying and ends up losing all his friends and family in a mistaken attempt to "keep her happy" as actually standing up for himself is labeled "abusive" and "not caring about her feelings". This is a very common dynamic I've seen repeated many times.

I guess men don't talk much about this, beyond stupid jokes about the ball and chain or she who must be obeyed.

LegacyUser

intertrade wrote: »

Hiya, just writing out of desperation really. I tried to go and talk to a professional about this during the week and it went disastrously. I ended up storming out half way through the session because they just did Not get it. My brother is married to a horrible woman. She has caused so much hurt and pain in our family and he has made his bed and is going to lie in it now (in other words his loyalty is to her and their kids). I know that is as it should be but I don't see why she makes him choose. Her family are lauded and placed on a pedastel and invited to every little thing the kids do (like shows, birthdays etc) and we are treated like 2nd class citizens all the time. There are so many examples of this like all the photos in their house are of her family and friends, almost none of us. We hardly ever see the kids which breaks our heart. I'm finding it particulary difficult at the moment because I have kids of my own now and we all live in the same area so it's going to start affecting the next generation.

Reconciliation with this woman is not a possibility. I'm over a decade dealing with her now and she is an utter see you next Tuesday. There's no hope for any kind of relationship there. I just wish I coudl figure out a way to not let this issue get me down so much. My brother is a great guy and there was nothing between us growing up so I find it a huge sense of pain that we are not close as adults. There's no reason for us not to be close except for her. We have plenty in common etc. We lost our father this year and that has made all of this all the harder to bear. My own father was unbelievably loyal to his siblings and would never treat them this way. Family was everything to him and his last words to us were to support each other.
But things have actually gotten worse now than they ever were. I wish I coudl find a way to live around this issue and not let it bother me so much. Everything else in my life is great - my marriage, my kids, my job, my friends etc. But this issue breaks my heart

I would respectfully suggest that there is no reason for you and your brother to be close. He has married a woman that he loves and had kids with her. You despise her and obviously actively show it.

In her place, surrounded by hostility, I wouldn't be inviting you to visit much either. Of course she will have photos of her family up abd invite her family and friends to stuff. Why would she choose to invite you anywhere?

Your brother 'has made his bed'. Do you mean that while you and your family pour scorn and hate at his wife, the mother of his children, that he sides with her instead of you? Why would he invite you to stuff knowing how much you hate her? Why would he spend time with you or allow you to spend time with his kids knowing this?

Why do you expect her to have photos of you up? Why? I doubt that your brother puts the photos up?

The fact that you stormed out of counseling is telling. I feel really, really sorry for your brother and his family. You are clearly bitter and angry.

groovyg

intertrade wrote: »

Her family are lauded and placed on a pedastel and invited to every little thing the kids do (like shows, birthdays etc) and we are treated like 2nd class citizens all the time. There are so many examples of this like all the photos in their house are of her family and friends, almost none of us. We hardly ever see the kids which breaks our heart.

I don't really get why you'd want your brother and his wife to have photos up of your family and kids. I have siblings with nieces and nephews and I don't have photos of them all over the place, I have one or two of the nieces stuck on the fridge but all the other photos are of my own travels and adventures. Its sounds like they live their life and do their own thing. Just because you all live close together doesn't mean you should all be living in each others pockets. Have you had a massive falling out with your sister in law ?

witchgirl26

OP - honestly if you don't talk to them, how do you know that her family are invited to every little thing? Not having a go but is it more that that is your impression. I wouldn't be invited to a lot of the stuff my nieces and nephews are involved in, partially because their parents would think I had my own life and don't want to be pushing it on me to feel like I had to attend. And partially because they know I probably wouldn't go. Despite how much I love them.

A counselor will probably not just take your "there's no salvaging the relationship" line and leave it at that as to really understand the situation, they do need to understand some of the background. Otherwise how can really help you with coping mechanisms? They don't know what will and will not work without an understanding of how it all came about and the parties involved.

I know that you really don't like this woman and that's ok but you seem to be absolving your brother of all blame in the situation. I know family members where the sibling really doesn't get on at all with the in-law but the foot was put down with the whole "you will at least be cordial to each other in family settings". I wouldn't say it's the best but it means occasions like Christmas are at least handled with some level of decorum. It is up to your brother to sort that out.

Look it's a crappy situation, that's fair enough but if you're worried about it affecting the kids, someone has to be the bigger party and hold a discussion where it's said that the kids can all be friends etc but doesn't mean the adults have to get on. You could choose to be the one to do that.

LegacyUser

It was actually kinesiology, which I don't recommend. She was tapping into the energy in my body to tell me what my subconscious was saying apparently, in exchange for 150 euro for the 1st 1.5hr session (80 euro for any subsequent sessions). I actually found it traumatic & don't think I could face talking to anyone else about it. BBOC you are right that a counsellor couldn't fix it anyway.

Professore you hit the nail on the head so well I was actually like do you know them! His best man fell foul of the wife years ago & as a consequence disappeared from his life (they were friends all their lives since they were kids) same happened with his closest male cousin -also fell foul of the wife and as good as gone from his life.
Ursus you were bang on the money with everything you said in your post. He is trapped in a horrible no win situation. And of course it's easier to lose us lot than lose his wife & kids. I know he has no choice. I just want to find ways to cope with the sadness of it.
She's also living near all her family & friends.
No need to get hung up on the photo thing that was just a general description to give the background to the situation.
BBOC at least your aunt-in-law had the decency to let her husband go to family weddings without her so he could have a rare chance to talk to his family! In my brother's case she wouldn't be able to lose control like that, she is always with him & controls who he talks to at weddings
Thanks again all for your advice

CiboC

OP, there is still every chance for you to have a relationship with your brother if you both want it.

Despite the situation with my brother's wife, we both get on well and are in touch fairly frequently. We just don't mention it when we meet, he takes a 'see no evil, hear no evil' approach to the situation and I (for the most part) ignore the jabs.

I don't ask him to take up an argument against his wife, that would put him in a completely impossible situation. In return, he doesn't encourage her or take up her argument if she gets in over her head (as at the Christmas conversation I mentioned earlier).

It might sound awkward, but it actually works as a coping method, neither of us want to loose touch with each other over it. Sometimes people just don't like each other and there is not much you can do about it.

LegacyUser

CiboC wrote: »

OP, there is still every chance for you to have a relationship with your brother if you both want it.
.

I don't think he does though CioboC, it's very sad but I think I have to face facts.
This sums it up really re my brother and me:

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Realistically, what can you do about it? Your relationship with someone depends on their cooperation, and if you don't have their cooperation, you don't have a relationship.
Back off and let your brother come to you if and when he wants. .

Good question here:

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Why doesnt your brother ever bring the kids round to you or why dont you call up to him? I dont think you can shift the blame onto his wife, he's his own person and im sure he could make the effort if he wanted to.

And answer to the question here I think:

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

We don't know what his marriage is like or what his wife has said to him. It's possible that he would like to see you all more often but that there's a price to pay.

And here:

professore wrote: »

I bet he wants to but every time she's "sick", had "planned something months ago" or some other excuse, and he just took her at face value. Eventually the man just stops trying.

I love my husband and I would never make him choose between his family and me, even when they p!ss me off. I had my husband's brother man-splain to me that I was infecting my child by breastfeeding her once for example (!) this is while the baby was literally latched on to me. He is totally pro-formula and anti-breastfeeding. I just let things like that go over my head for the sake of family relations. The man-splainer's wife also once accused my husband of being physically rough with her kids (he was playing with them) and he decided to forgive her so I did too although obviously I was very offended on my husband's behalf. But my husband's family are very important to him and that's one of the things i love/admire about my husband.
To me family is everything and you accept them good and bad, those are the values I was brought up with. Nobody is perfect, including me or any of the rest of my family. But within a family people should be accepted warts and all (to a sensible limit obviously) within the umbrella of the family. I love my siblings unconditionally even when they fu*ck up. I would never alienate them and if my husband tried to cut me off from them I'd say no. By the same token I will never come between him and his family even if they p!ss me off. Families encompass the good the bad and the ugly and you let things go for the sake of maintaining family relationships if you are a normal balanced person.

GingerLily

intertrade wrote: »

But within a family people should be accepted warts and all (to a sensible limit obviously) within the umbrella of the family. I love my siblings unconditionally even when they fu*ck up. I would never alienate them and if my husband tried to cut me off from them I'd say no. By the same token I will never come between him and his family even if they p!ss me off. Families encompass the good the bad and the ugly and you let things go for the sake of maintaining family relationships if you are a normal balanced person.

You are 100% wrong on that, you shouldn't hold onto toxic relationships just because "their family".