18 in Sixth Year - Can I sign things for myself?

Frey

Can I sign permission slip, absence notes, and other forms like those? Before the age of 18 I understand why a parent would need to sign these, but as an 18 year old I am considered an adult by the constitution and am, therefore, able to manage my own affairs.

If the school refused to accept something I signed and insisted that it be signed by a parent/guardian, are they violating my constitutional rights?

Thanks

Consonata

Isn't worth the hassle in most cases. But if the schools makes a big deal of allowing it, sure.

Frey

I've done a bit more research since, and legally the school cannot force me to have a parent represent me. It is a hassle, I know, but I consider the school tricking me into giving up even this small bit of independence and responsibility disrespectful.
23border sums it up best over on this forum (full post here---->/showpost.php?p=62066778&postcount=38)

23border wrote:

...Once you are 18 you are allowed to make your own decisions and you are a legal adult... Once you're 18 it's your life... pupils should follow school where applicable and are still subject to the same sanctions. But in terms of signing yourself out of school there is no problem as you are responsible only for yourself. Saying that on a practical level, marching in and out of school on a frequent basis could give the school grounds to remove you as you are abusing a system...
Also, you don't need your parents permission to write your own notes at 18! Think of the absurdity of being 18 years old and legally independent but requiring other people's permission to be independent?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
As for the "document" you signed when you were entering school-not worth the paper it is written on full stop. It's because you were under 18, and the courts have recognized in the past that people were under duress of the school and their parents to sign the form.

evolving_doors

Ya I suppose, depends if you're upsetting other students though. Like, Technically you can say, up sticks in the middle of a class and walk out ,but does the school have a right to look after the needs of the class. Could they compel you to stay away from said class if you continued to do this... just cos you can.

As always with school conflict the devil is in the detail and what the rules of the school are.

Is the issue about leaving whenever you like, without a parental note.

It wouldn't be the first time any principal has dealt with this (usually crops up every November every year in every school with 6th years picking and choosing which classes to attend, when to leave... and parking on school grounds). Its as common as the yearly parent on Joe Duffy moaning about the school because their kid refuses to get a hair cut or wear the correct uniform for state exams.
So if yer up for a battle then keep in mind the school will want to keep things as 'regular' as possible, some 6th yrs like to wear the 'over 18' on their sleave. And I'm sure their peers love to egg them on for a bit of drama and distraction too.

Ask yourself if it's necessary.

Plenty of time to be a conscientious objector in college.

spurious

Choose more important battles.

rainbowtrout

Frey wrote: »

I've done a bit more research since, and legally the school cannot force me to have a parent represent me. It is a hassle, I know, but I consider the school tricking me into giving up even this small bit of independence and responsibility disrespectful.
23border sums it up best over on this forum (full post here---->/showpost.php?p=62066778&postcount=38)

Tricking you? Disrespectful? Ah here.

You signed up for the rules of the school, which is a private institution. By signing them you agree to follow their rules. Bloody hell, there is always one leaving cert every year whining about their rights once they turn 18. Time would be better spent studying for your leaving cert.

But come January when the school come looking for €116 so you can sit the leaving cert, do you want the bill addressed to you or your parents? It's only fair that you pay all remaining existing school bills if you wish to take on all the rights and responsibilities of an adult.

endacl

spurious wrote: »

Choose more important battles.

Kids are funny. Even 'adult' kids.

sandyxxx

Frey wrote: »

Can I sign permission slip, absence notes, and other forms like those? Before the age of 18 I understand why a parent would need to sign these, but as an 18 year old I am considered an adult by the constitution and am, therefore, able to manage my own affairs.

If the school refused to accept something I signed and insisted that it be signed by a parent/guardian, are they violating my constitutional rights?

Thanks

This happened in a school locally, A "big lad" turned 18 and decided he was a free agent, signed all his doc's etc.......he thought he could come and go As he pleased,.....all went well till he got suspended for mitching and the principal turned Mammy away as he now represented himself 😂😂😂

mtoutlemonde

I remember my business teacher explaining the term 'legal enfant' - not full rights until twenty-one which might be relevant here. Like other posters have said, I would choose my battles - the school has rules and procedures that have to be adhered to and remember that reference from your principal - I wouldn't like to be described as non-compliant / rebellious etc. and if I was a principal who was putting up with a leaving cert student coming and going as they please - I wouldn't be long showing him/her the door permanently.

endacl

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I remember my business teacher explaining the term 'legal enfant' - not full rights until twenty-one which might be relevant here. Like other posters have said, I would choose my battles - the school has rules and procedures that have to be adhered to and remember that reference from your principal - I wouldn't like to be described as non-compliant / rebellious etc. and if I was a principal who was putting up with a leaving cert student coming and going as they please - I wouldn't be long showing him/her the door permanently.

Indeed. The school are no longer in loco parentis. Their obligation to an irritating 'adult' is a whole lot less than their obligation to a stroppy teenager.

Frey

Thanks for the advice and opinions. I needed something more concrete than the advice given here, so I ended up talking to some of the staff in the school, a few social workers and called the Department of Education and Skills. Each person I spoke to about adult policy in the school told me I required a parent/guardian signature, and when I asked where I could find some information to support their reasoning, they each pointed me in a different direction, and I ended up going on many wild goose chases trying to find out if what they had said held any weight. Nothing did. As for the social workers, they said 'of course you should not be required to have a parent/guardian sign the form for you'. And the person from the Department told me that, yes, the school should not reject a form signed by an adult student. I also asked if the Department offers any advice to schools on policies for adult students, and the answer to that was a no.

So, basically, the school can not reject anything that has been signed by a student who is a adult. The constitution out ranks any principal, or school rule. If a principal rejects your form, go higher. A letter to the board of management would be the next step. Nobody should be deemed a trouble-maker for exercising their rights as a normal adult, but there's no need to be aggressive or confrontational about it when addressing the school. Clarifying the school rules is not unnecessary hassle.

And to those of you who told me I shouldn't waste my time on this--at first, I was doing this because, as an adult in secondary-level education, I wanted to find out about policies for adult students, and how this affects my role in my education, but then I realised that there might be some other normal 18 year old secondary school student out there whose parents don't wish them to go on a trip/change level/etc. Once 18, they are the only person responsible for their education, and therefore, whether their parents/guardians agree or not is totally irrelevant! (sidenote: my parents would have signed the form-if I had let them) If the school refused to accept the signature of that adult, that student would need some advice, and I was hoping that this thread would be able to point them in the right direction. That might be disgustingly optimistic, but it's here and it's done.

rainbowtrout

Social Workers? I seriously hope this is a wind up, and that you haven't been wasting the time of social workers and taking them away from doing work that is far more pressing.

Schools aren't out to get 18 year old students. Rules are in place so schools can function efficiently on a day to day basis, and so underage students can be taught properly and also protected as those students are under the care and supervision of the school staff between 9-4 each day.

You know OP, most teachers would not like to find themselves in a classroom on their own with a student, because they could be accused of inappropriate behaviour and you will find if you read threads in the Teaching forum that teachers that have to speak to individual students will either prefer to leave a classroom door open where they can be seen and heard or have a witness present.

If more and more 18 year old students start bleating on about their rights as an adult in a school environment, where the majority of students are underage, don't be too surprised if schools end up having to bring in policies when those students can't be in rooms with underage students on their own, simply for the protection of the underage students.

Also if you keep on insisting on being viewed as an adult in the school (as is your right that you are determined to exercise, to no great advantage), if you get caught up in a fight or something similar, you are now representing yourself, and you are an adult assaulting a minor. Be careful what you wish for.

jameorahiely

Frey wrote: »

Thanks for the advice and opinions. I needed something more concrete than the advice given here, so I ended up talking to some of the staff in the school, a few social workers and called the Department of Education and Skills. Each person I spoke to about adult policy in the school told me I required a parent/guardian signature, and when I asked where I could find some information to support their reasoning, they each pointed me in a different direction, and I ended up going on many wild goose chases trying to find out if what they had said held any weight. Nothing did. As for the social workers, they said 'of course you should not be required to have a parent/guardian sign the form for you'. And the person from the Department told me that, yes, the school should not reject a form signed by an adult student. I also asked if the Department offers any advice to schools on policies for adult students, and the answer to that was a no.

So, basically, the school can not reject anything that has been signed by a student who is a adult. The constitution out ranks any principal, or school rule. If a principal rejects your form, go higher. A letter to the board of management would be the next step. Nobody should be deemed a trouble-maker for exercising their rights as a normal adult, but there's no need to be aggressive or confrontational about it when addressing the school. Clarifying the school rules is not unnecessary hassle.

And to those of you who told me I shouldn't waste my time on this--at first, I was doing this because, as an adult in secondary-level education, I wanted to find out about policies for adult students, and how this affects my role in my education, but then I realised that there might be some other normal 18 year old secondary school student out there whose parents don't wish them to go on a trip/change level/etc. Once 18, they are the only person responsible for their education, and therefore, whether their parents/guardians agree or not is totally irrelevant! (sidenote: my parents would have signed the form-if I had let them) If the school refused to accept the signature of that adult, that student would need some advice, and I was hoping that this thread would be able to point them in the right direction. That might be disgustingly optimistic, but it's here and it's done.

Once 18, they are the only person responsible for their education, and therefore, whether their parents/guardians agree or not is totally irrelevant!



Why do the state make the parents responsible to pay until the child is 23 in full time education?

mtoutlemonde

Frey wrote: »

Thanks for the advice and opinions. I needed something more concrete than the advice given here, so I ended up talking to some of the staff in the school, a few social workers and called the Department of Education and Skills. Each person I spoke to about adult policy in the school told me I required a parent/guardian signature, and when I asked where I could find some information to support their reasoning, they each pointed me in a different direction, and I ended up going on many wild goose chases trying to find out if what they had said held any weight. Nothing did. As for the social workers, they said 'of course you should not be required to have a parent/guardian sign the form for you'. And the person from the Department told me that, yes, the school should not reject a form signed by an adult student. I also asked if the Department offers any advice to schools on policies for adult students, and the answer to that was a no.

So, basically, the school can not reject anything that has been signed by a student who is a adult. The constitution out ranks any principal, or school rule. If a principal rejects your form, go higher. A letter to the board of management would be the next step. Nobody should be deemed a trouble-maker for exercising their rights as a normal adult, but there's no need to be aggressive or confrontational about it when addressing the school. Clarifying the school rules is not unnecessary hassle.

And to those of you who told me I shouldn't waste my time on this--at first, I was doing this because, as an adult in secondary-level education, I wanted to find out about policies for adult students, and how this affects my role in my education, but then I realised that there might be some other normal 18 year old secondary school student out there whose parents don't wish them to go on a trip/change level/etc. Once 18, they are the only person responsible for their education, and therefore, whether their parents/guardians agree or not is totally irrelevant! (sidenote: my parents would have signed the form-if I had let them) If the school refused to accept the signature of that adult, that student would need some advice, and I was hoping that this thread would be able to point them in the right direction. That might be disgustingly optimistic, but it's here and it's done.

As rainbowtrout said - I too hope this is a wind-up - I can't believe you felt the need to ring the department and more importantly - busy social workers.
I have a different interpretation of your problem and don't think your gripe is really with the school and more so with your parents. I think you are craving your independence and involving the school is the only way you can get to them. I would suggest speaking to your year head / chaplain etc. and tell them about your problem. Remember you only have five months left in school and probably mocks next month - concentrate on these - get good results - go to university or whatever - you can move out and get the independence that you crave.

rainbowtrout

jameorahiely wrote: »

Once 18, they are the only person responsible for their education, and therefore, whether their parents/guardians agree or not is totally irrelevant!



Why do the state make the parents responsible to pay until the child is 23 in full time education?

yep, those adult children have it good, and no doubt the OP won't be complaining too much if his parents are forking out money for his college fees/accommodation for the next four years or so.

It probably developed because if students were to be assessed for grant purposes on their own income (which for most would be little or nothing), pretty much every student would be eligible for support. Assessing students on their parents income means some parents are eligible for fees. We've also only had 'free' college education since 1996, until then it was much more of a privilege and certainly fees were a barrier to entry for plenty of students. As it was the norm for parents to pay the fees, I'd imagine that system of maintenance for under 23s developed from widely practiced social norms.

mtoutlemonde

jameorahiely wrote: »

Once 18, they are the only person responsible for their education, and therefore, whether their parents/guardians agree or not is totally irrelevant!



Why do the state make the parents responsible to pay until the child is 23 in full time education?

It's not totally irrelevant - parents want the best for their children and see education as very important because in some cases - they may not have even received a second level education and they want their children to succeed where they may not have been able to do.

Who else should pay? Bring in a loans system like England and other countries? - You'd probably be one of the protestors at the strikes against such measures. Kids nowadays don't realise how easy they have and their gripe is that they want to sign their own notes and leave school when they want to - instead of acting like the adults you want to be treated - some of the posters are showing signs of spoilt children who are not getting their own way. A bit of work in the real world might knock some of that immaturity from ye.

jameorahiely

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

It's not totally irrelevant - parents want the best for their children and see education as very important because in some cases - they may not have even received a second level education and they want their children to succeed where they may not have been able to do.

Who else should pay? Bring in a loans system like England and other countries? - You'd probably be one of the protestors at the strikes against such measures. Kids nowadays don't realise how easy they have and their gripe is that they want to sign their own notes and leave school when they want to - instead of acting like the adults you want to be treated - some of the posters are showing signs of spoilt children who are not getting their own way. A bit of work in the real world might knock some of that immaturity from ye.

Strange kind of answer to my question, you seem to have a lot of anger. You know nothing about me, I think a student loans system is a great idea. There is no reason why if they are adults over 18, they can't take on the responsibility of paying for themselves.

mtoutlemonde

jameorahiely wrote: »

Strange kind of answer to my question, you seem to have a lot of anger. You know nothing about me, I think a student loans system is a great idea.

No anger here. I can't understand that 'adults' are making such a deal out of your parents having to sign a form and its impinging on your independence. I don't know what ye will do when a doctor or a guard will have to sign a form for ye.

Regarding the loans system - I think you're in the minority there. I do agree it would be a good idea as it would stop the 'students' who go to college on grants and sometimes hard earned parents money and the only thing they come out is a bad liver - if they had to pay the situation might change.

jameorahiely

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

No anger here. I can't understand that 'adults' are making such a deal out of your parents having to sign a form and its impinging on your independence. I don't know what ye will do when a doctor or a guard will have to sign a form for ye.

Regarding the loans system - I think you're in the minority there. I do agree it would be a good idea as it would stop the 'students' who go to college on grants and sometimes hard earned parents money and the only thing they come out is a bad liver - if they had to pay the situation might change.

Not my parents, i left school years ago. I agree with you on the big deal over parents signing things. I was just pondering why if social workers etc were saying that parents weren't needed to sign forms etc, was the state expecting parents to take responsibility until 23. You do realise the first sentence in my first post was a quote from the op?

Victor

jameorahiely wrote: »

Why do the state make the parents responsible to pay until the child is 23 in full time education?

It doesn't. Parents normally don't retain any obligations past 18. However, the state tends to presume that parents support their children beyond that.

mtoutlemonde

jameorahiely wrote: »

Not my parents, i left school years ago. I agree with you on the big deal over parents signing things. I was just pondering why if social workers etc were saying that parents weren't needed to sign forms etc, was the state expecting parents to take responsibility until 23. You do realise the first sentence in my first post was a quote from the op?

You didn't quote it so I assumed that was your point - apologies. I think rainbowtrout answered the question about parents paying for education - it's making sure that the parents that can pay for their children should pay otherwise everyone would be entitled to free fees.

jameorahiely

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

You didn't quote it so I assumed that was your point - apologies. I think rainbowtrout answered the question about parents paying for education - it's making sure that the parents that can pay for their children should pay otherwise everyone would be entitled to free fees.

It probably wasn't too clear the way i posted it, it just seemed handier to copy/paste than to try and delete the rest on my phone. It was ony after i thought it might be confusing.
The grant thing is reasonable and cuts costs (to the taxpayer)

mtoutlemonde

jameorahiely wrote: »

It probably wasn't too clear the way i posted it, it just seemed handier to copy/paste than to try and delete the rest on my phone. It was ony after i thought it might be confusing.
The grant thing is reasonable and cuts costs (to the taxpayer)

That explains that so - I thought I was dealing with an outspoken 18 year old teenager ... Sorry adult.

endacl

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

That explains that so - I thought I was dealing with an outspoken 18 year old teenager ... Sorry adult.

I'm an outspoken 18 year old teenager. Have been for 25 years now.

randylonghorn

What a waste of time and energy!