Exclusive "Gentlemen's"/Old Boys Clubs

JupiterKid

I was watching a film called The Riot Club which is about the riotous and debauched antics of an exclusive boys club in Oxford University. The film portrays the club members as toffs who are over-privilidged and believe they are above pretty much all of society, including the law.

The film is alleged to be a scathing view of The Bullingdon Club, a posh "dining" (for dining read drinking/drugging) club which had Former UK Prime Minister David Cameron, Chancellor Of The Exchequer George Osborne and Foreign Secretary Boris Johnston as members. Once a member, you are a member for life and you must obey the codes of the club, which can be eccentric to say the least.

In later life, such esteemed men can join other clubs, equally exclusive. Many commentators claim that these clubs are in decline and are no longer the pathway to power that they once were. It's claimed that we live in an equal opportunity society now where merit and hard work will get you to the top.

But is this true? Are these clubs still very influential, a place where once your uncle Sebastian gets you a membership you are made for life?

And what of the American college fraternities? Also paths to power or irrelevant idiotic playgrounds for young men desperate to achieve recognition and acceptance among the upper crust?

Thoughts?

MilesMorales1

Well yeah, the whole thing is dominated by old boys networks and who knows who. No different in Ireland than in the UK or the US. Politics, films, tv, movies, writing, whatever. Dominated by these sorts of clubs and structures, even if its not as formal as it once was.

tomwaterford

Given that president Higgins come from a very poor background and made it to the top and the runner up till him was also from poor background

I don't think that membership of these clubs if they exist in ireland is a barrier to success

HellSquirrel

I'm inclined to think that yes, there is an old boy's club that gets people places if they're from certain backgrounds, but I don't think it's as literal as they're all members of The Great British Alpha Rho Sigma Epsilon Club (or the Bullington Club), but more that Sir X knows Y's father and worked with his uncle and one of them flagged to him that his son is looking for a place to start, etc. Same way as it happens in Ireland or most other places, just the network is a lot bigger and a lot more influential. Sure, some of them could have met at the Bullington Club (or others), and it probably contributes, but I don't think it would end overnight if all these clubs suddenly imploded.

Younger generations do it too - like the Brat Pack in the early 90s, or those daft rich kids of Instagram groups. Some of them will probably benefit directly from their links, others will fade out.

In short, yeah, probably contributes, not all of it, humans tend to band together/team up/club up based on factors including socio-economic ones, even if the clubs named ended, more would grow over time. And cronyism and nepotism will never be out of fashion.

fizzypish

Yes. I totally believe this. This is the reason I'm not rich and famous. Not because I'm ****.....

Peregrinus

There's no doubt that being plugged into a social network that includes a significant number of commercially and/or politically influential people is, um, a significant advantage in life. This is true in every country; Ireland is not unusual in this regard.

In Ireland, though, these networks are informal (but very effective) and they don't really revolve around formal structures like clubs. There are still a few traditional clubs in Ireland, and perhaps a hundred years ago membership of one of these clubs was an important marker of participation in elite networks. But not any more; simply becoming a member of one of these clubs doesn't in itself secure admission to or acceptance by a significant network, and conversely it's perfectly possible (and indeed common) to be a big player in such a network, but not be a member of any club. The clubs have been in decline for decades now, and those that survive have done so by merging to pool resources, and by reinventing themselves to appeal to a wider range of potential members. In the past, though, the clubs were associated with distinct social networks; the Kildare Street Club was for the landed gentry; the University Club for Trinity graduates; the Stephen's Green Club for lawyers; the Hibernian United Service Club orginally for army and navy types, but in later years it was popular with bankers and insurance people.

Irish Guitarist

I joined the Masters of The Universe fan club when I was about nine. It didn't get me anywhere. They never even sent me my monthly newsletter.

Mr. Incognito

Who cares.

Their definition of success doesnt match mine.

Load of deluded inbred yobs

steddyeddy

It goes with the terroritory of Oxford I'm afraid. Just be thankful Ireland's not as divided.

johnnyskeleton

Maybe there are old boy networks in Ireland. Certainly there is political patronage - look at the members of any state body or board, and often they will be staffed by supporters of the ruling party/parties at the time.

But the effect of all this is probably overstated. Its tempting to say that the reason you got overlooked for promotion is because of the old boy net or because the boss plays golf with the person who got the job, but having such a chip on your shoulder is not good for your future chances of success nor is it good for the soul.

steddyeddy

My past and current supervisor are members of the Royal Society of Science. There's a lot of net working going on there and a lot of snobbery towards anyone they see as less. Art or law grads usually.

brevity

seamus wrote: »

Nobody ever became successful or powerful through reading a self-help book.

The whole self-help industry is a scam; a series of get-rich-quick schemes all under different guises. The only get-rich-quick scheme at play is the one where people give the author money for their opinion.

I'd disagree that the whole industry is a scam.

While there are no doubt some less reputable authors but to say that someone hasn't improved themselves (addiction problems, confidence issues, relationship difficulties) by reading a book is untrue.

Widdershins

In Ireland it's who you went to school with. Depending on the school. And then there's the freemasons. It's certainly still there. I know of people like that who seem to have strings pulled for them whenever they need something or get into trouble.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

It goes with the terroritory of Oxford I'm afraid. Just be thankful Ireland's not as divided.

surely somebody going to one of the top universities in the world is a good indicator that they will be successful, no?

Trekker09

I go with the Groucho Marx ideal by refusing to join any club that would have me as a member.

Yamanoto

Trekker09 wrote: »

I go with the Groucho Marx ideal by refusing to join any club that would have me as a member.

When one club offered to waive its no-Jews rule for Groucho, provided he abstained from using the swimming pool, he remarked, "My daughter's only half Jewish, can she wade in up to her knees?

Outlaw Pete

I'd like to discuss this but the first rule of The Dublin Don's Gentlemen's Emporium is..

Trekker09

Yamanoto wrote: »

When one club offered to waive its no-Jews rule for Groucho, provided he abstained from using the swimming pool, he remarked, "My daughter's only half Jewish, can she wade in up to her knees?

Now that is pure genius!

Closer to home though, aren't there a few Orange Lodges etc that could loosely be described as old boys networks?

When I was driving around the bible belt in the US after I got married,I couldn't get over the number of lodges and mens networks. It was truly strange and a tad intimidating as they had this perception and hatred of Catholics.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

surely somebody going to one of the top universities in the world is a good indicator that they will be successful, no?

Well to some degree. Depends on the subject and how they do while there. The existence of an exclusive club does lend a bit of social Darwinism to the equation.

Peregrinus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

surely somebody going to one of the top universities in the world is a good indicator that they will be successful, no?

Dear me, no. Lots of Oxbridge graduates live distinctly under-achieving lives. Oxbridge (and other well regarded universities) offer you opportunities, but not necessarily results. You can still stuff it up quite badly. Or you can simply opt out, and decide that what interests you is not what is conventionally used to measure "success".

Dave_The_Sheep

In business or most professional circles, it's called networking. "It's about who you know, not what you know".

Further up the chain, call it old-boys-clubs or whatever.

It's not to say that it's a automatic golden ticket, but it's a massive boost-up-the-wall any way you look at it.

Without excusing it, the same kind of **** goes on at every level of society. Just when it comes to those in the "elite", the influence is far, far greater.

Trekker09

Aye, just look at the ICA

nice_guy80

So all of these are private school based?

Another reason to shut the places

Peregrinus

nice_guy80 wrote: »

So all of these are private school based?

Another reason to shut the places

No, they're money-based. If you can pay the subscription, you're in.

The truth is, though, that you're not likely to want to get in unless you know members, and they encourage you to join. The club is somewhere you go to meet people. If you don't know anyone in the club, who would you meet there?

Some of the clubs do target particular types of people and encourage them to join. If you were a star athlete at Trinity, for example, odds are that one or two people suggested to you that you should think about the Kildare Street and University Club.

VinLieger

nice_guy80 wrote: »

So all of these are private school based?

Another reason to shut the places

Exactly all of our problems are the fault of private schools....... it doesnt matter that closing them will actually cost the country more

Fratton Fred

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, they're money-based. If you can pay the subscription, you're in.

The truth is, though, that you're not likely to want to get in unless you know members, and they encourage you to join. The club is somewhere you go to meet people. If you don't know anyone in the club, who would you meet there?

Some of the clubs do target particular types of people and encourage them to join. If you were a star athlete at Trinity, for example, odds are that one or two people suggested to you that you should think about the Kildare Street and University Club.

It depends on the club, some are very exclusive and you have to meet certain criteria to get in, or at least be nominated and seconded by existing members. This isn't generally based on what school tie you wore more what you can bring to the club and its members.

I have a relative who was a member of a notoriously difficult to join club in the West End of London. I'm not sure how he managed to get in, but if he ever invited someone for lunch that he needed to meet for business reasons, they never refused the offer of a meal at this club, such was it's reputation.

They had a purge though and a lot of the "Suits" were prevented from renewing their memberships, as the club (being in the West End) prided itself on being more for the arts than business.

steddyeddy

As Fred says it depends on the club. The Bullingdon club is exclusive in that its members have to be born into money to afford it as they charge huge fees to people still in university. You also have to be a yob apparently as the club have a penchant for destroying hotel rooms and restaurants.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

As Fred says it depends on the club. The Bullingdon club is exclusive in that its members have to be born into money to afford it as they charge huge fees to people still in university. You also have to be a yob apparently as the club have a penchant for destroying hotel rooms and restaurants.

and Male

steddyeddy

Peregrinus wrote: »

Dear me, no. Lots of Oxbridge graduates live distinctly under-achieving lives. Oxbridge (and other well regarded universities) offer you opportunities, but not necessarily results. You can still stuff it up quite badly. Or you can simply opt out, and decide that what interests you is not what is conventionally used to measure "success".

Indeed. Depends what you do with it and many will go to Oxbridge for the privilege. It also depends what you do there. I work along post docs from Oxford and Cambridge and my alma mater was UCD. I had the great luck of publishing during my masters which enabled me to get posts which non-publishing Oxford grads couldn't.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and Male

Yea classism and sexism are old bed mates.