Trying to save my dog

need_info

Hi, last Wednesday the oil man came and I forgot to check if the gate was locked after he left I jus assumed he had. My dogs got out and my neighbor told me he had locked them back in that night when he got home.
My daughters friends told her that they had been in a fight and the garda had been called, which I didn't believe. I didn't think it was a Garda matter. I was wrong.
The dog warden had called Saturday afternoon when I wasn't home, I tried calling him back Sunday, then got through to him Monday. That's when I was told the fight really did happen and that a woman was knocked over, and the dog was seriously injured. I would have to pay the vets bill which I totally 100% agree with, my dog shouldn't have attacked - I was in shock. My dogs are friendly dogs, the boxer is boisterous and likes to be heard. He is territorial but not to the extent that he attacks, he has often sat at the door with me while sales people, food delivery people came to the door.
The dog warden told me he and the Garda would come up Tuesday and we would talk. When he arrived Charlie didn't even bark or want anything to do with them. The dog warden told me Charlie was a dangerous dog because he knocked over the woman and fought with the dog and injured him badly.
The Garda told me that it was a bad thing that Charlie was territorial, he could attack a child, which I pointed out the kids are in and out the whole time, my neighbors son was constantly coming in and out over the wall to play with him and my other dog when I wasn't home, sometimes when I was home, and that the children weren't in danger from my dog.
My problem is because the dog warden has decided that Charlie my boxer is a dangerous dog because he knocked a woman to the ground and fought with her dog and injured him that my dog should be destroyed - the extent of the injury I wasn't told, the circumstances surrounding what happened when I was away I wasn't told.
The Garda tried to put it down my neck that I actually came home put the dogs in, but didn't lock my gate properly and they got out again, which I didn't do. I mean, what would I do that for? I have one dog 8 years and Charlie the boxer for three years and this is the first time.
Then he told me Charlie charged at him barking but didn't attack because he shouted and raised his leg which, from what I know about dogs that want to attack, wouldn't stop it's only giving them something to grab onto. The dog warden started talking about a dog in England killing a man and a child, and at this stage I had heard enough, Charlie wasn't going to kill anyone. I know my dog.
I have a lock on my gate now so that it won't happen again, my dad is building a fence around the oil tank so that the dogs won't be able get out ever again, the dog warden wasn't interested.
I realized he had already made up his mind, that talking to them was pointless. I had a panic attack and Charlie walked into the kitchen over to me and waited for my panic attack to stop. THen he growled at the them and stopped when I told him to and just stay there while I tried to pull myself together, and found out how I could keep him. But the dog warden wasn't helpful at all which was frustrating. [He said] my dog is dangerous, he couldn't leave him with me, yet he was with me for 6 days after the fight and the knocking over of the woman, and he didn't get out and I wasn't contacted until Saturday, it's mind boggling to me.
I really want Charlie home, he doesn't belong in the pound. I thought I had no choice sending him to the way the dog warden said it to me. I don't have a court date yet but I am hoping to have one before Christmas which could be a bad thing if I don't get him back, but I want him out of the pound. He doesn't belong there. He isn't dangerous, he should be home with us.
Does anyone have any advice on what i can do to get him back, please

Mod note: OP, I have edited your post to put in some punctuation and paragraphs as it was too hard to read as it was.
Thanks,
DBB

ganmo

get a solicitor.

mosi

There was a case in Dublin a year or so ago where someone's dog got out and was involved in a fight, which subsequently resulted in the dog being seized. They got a solicitor involved and set up a Facebook page, and ended up getting the dog back. I can't remember the names of the people or the FB page, but if anyone here does, it might be an idea to pm the OP to get them on the right track with this issue.

need_info

Thank you

Knine

Have you paid the vets bill yet or apologised to the owner of the other dog. To be perfectly honest if I was out walking my dogs under control & one of them was seriously injured by a loose dog I would be beyond pissed off. There is no point in saying he never fights after the event. It all must have been very traumatic for the other dogs owner.

Has the warden stated that you will get a court date or that your dog will be destroyed or given you a time frame for it?

exaisle

OP....That's awful hard to read.

Would you consider editing it and breaking it into paragraphs? Just hit the return button after each sentence...

PucaMama

Have you seen any proof yet that this was done by your dog?

Ms Doubtfire1

Get a sollicitor straight away.once seized the dog can be destroyed immedeatley you have to stop that in it's tracks

_Brian

Its awful hard to read that text OP..

Your dog escaped, knocked over a woman and seriously injured another dog it attacked.

Did it then escape a second time and seem to want to attack the Guard/Warden

When the warden/guard was in your house speaking to you the dog started to growl at them again for no particular reason ??

To the average person who isnt emotionally attached to your dog it doesnt seem great.. the combination of the dog seeming very aggressive and its ability to escape seems to have them very worried..

Someone mentioned you need to get the vet bills for the other dog paid ASAP.

I think with history of a serious attack, knocking a person over, demonstrating aggressive behavior to the warden/guard on more than one occasion, the dog may indeed be taken and destroyed.

Ms Doubtfire1

Boxers are often used as Schutzhund. They are strong and boisterous and can be dominant.They are however not people aggressive ever - they will defend their property and their own family. I would presume the woman was knocked over when she stepped into the fight. I've been knocked over  myself in the past - that's a risk if you break up a fight.It's not a sign of people aggression. OP, again, get a solicitor/legal aid and fight this.DO pay the vet bills and DO make sure the garden is escape proof.

DBB

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Get a sollicitor straight away.once seized the dog can be destroyed immedeatley you have to stop that in it's tracks

That's simply not true.
The dog is in the pound pending a court case, in which the judge, and only the judge, will dictate what happens to the dog. That is clearly set out in the Control of Dogs Act. Anything outside of that, at this stage of proceedings, would mean the dog warden would be acting outside his/her powers and would themselves be in breach of the law.
Op, you need a solicitor.
Offer to cover vet fees, and if necessary medical fees incurred by the owner.
You would also be well advised to get a properly qualified and certified behaviourist to carry out an assessment of your dog, and presented in a report for the book of evidence. The behaviourist should also be prepared to go to court to testify (assuming that they conclude that the dog is not an ongoing risk).
You/your parent will also need to present evidence that all reasonable steps have been taken to make sure there can't be a repeat offence... eg double gates, sprung gates that close automatically, walls/fences raised etc.
On occasion, presenting such reports to the warden may encourage him/her to drop the case and give you another chance, worth a try but make absolutely certain that you are absolutely civil to the warden at all times.
That said, in this case a woman was knocked down (injured?) by your dog, which puts the case into a more serious category than if your dog had just frightened her... What happened to her dog is horrible for her and her dog, but there is no law that protects one dog from assault by another. That would be a civil case if she decides to pursue it.

DBB

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

They are however not people aggressive ever

This is simply not true.

Ms Doubtfire1

DBB wrote: »

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Get a sollicitor straight away.once seized the dog can be destroyed immedeatley you have to stop that in it's tracks

That's simply not true.
The dog is in the pound pending a court case, in which the judge, and only the judge, will dictate what happens to the dog. That is clearly set out in the Control of Dogs Act. Anything outside of that, at this stage of proceedings, would mean the dog warden would be acting outside his/her powers and would themselves be in breach of the law.
Op, you need a solicitor.
Offer to cover vet fees, and if necessary medical fees incurred by the owner.
You would also be well advised to get a properly qualified and certified behaviourist to carry out an assessment of your dog, and presented in a report for the book of evidence. The behaviourist should also be prepared to go to court to testify (assuming that they conclude that the dog is not an ongoing risk).
You/your parent will also need to present evidence that all reasonable steps have been taken to make sure there can't be a repeat offence... eg double gates, sprung gates that close automatically, walls/fences raised etc.
On occasion, presenting such reports to the warden may encourage him/her to drop the case and give you another chance, worth a try but make absolutely certain that you are absolutely civil to the warden at all times.
That said, in this case a woman was knocked down (injured?) by your dog, which puts the case into a more serious category than if your dog had just frightened her... What happened to her dog is horrible for her and her dog, but there is no law that protects one dog from assault by another. That would be a civil case if she decides to pursue it.

Only if there IS a legal case to begin with.To do so you need to fight / object to he seizure.Otherwise YES - they can destroy the dog.Quoting my local dogwarden

Ms Doubtfire1

DBB wrote: »

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

They are however not people aggressive ever

This is simply not true.

Well DBB - my family had boxers all their lives - i grew up with them.  Not one of them was ever people aggressive. Not have I ever heard of any who were.But sure, I'm sure you know everything

Knine

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Well DBB - my family had boxers all their lives - i grew up with them.  Not one of them was ever people aggressive. Not have I ever heard of any who were.But sure, I'm sure you know everything

Well unfortunately my sister was injured by a Boxer who decided she was fair game when she tried to get it to stop attacking her dog. I have also had Boxers act in a nervous aggressive way when at training classes.

DBB

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Only if there IS a legal case to begin with.To do so you need to fight / object to he seizure.Otherwise YES - they can destroy the dog.Quoting my local dogwarden

The warden has initiated proceedings by seizing the dog.
He cannot destroy the dog in a "dangerous dog" case without direction from the judge. End of.

DBB

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Well DBB - my family had boxers all their lives - i grew up with them.  Not one of them was ever people aggressive. Not have I ever heard of any who were.But sure, I'm sure you know everything

To say that any breed of dog will never be aggressive to people ever, is wrong.
I don't know everything, but I do know that.

DBB

DBB wrote: »

The warden has initiated proceedings by seizing the dog.
He cannot destroy the dog in a "dangerous dog" case without direction from the judge. End of.

For the record, Section 22 of the Control of Dogs Act 1986 is the one that deals with "dangerous dogs", and is clearly the section under which the warden is exercising his powers.
I quote it below for clarity. Bolded and underlining is my own, but used to highlight the relevant parts which show, without equivocation, that only the Court (the judge) can dictate (a) that the dog is dangerous, and (b) what becomes of the dog as a result. Note that euthanasia is not the only option that's open to the judge.
For an authorised officer (in this case, warden) to euthanase a dog without a Court Order would be a gross breach of his/her powers, for which he/she could face sanction.

22.—(1) Where—

(a) on a complaint being made to the District Court by any interested person that a dog is dangerous and not kept under proper control, or

(b) on the conviction of any person for an offence under section 9 (2) of this Act,

it appears to the Court that the dog is dangerous and not kept under proper control, the Court may, in addition to any other penalty which it may impose, order that the dog be kept under proper control or be destroyed.

(2) Whenever the Court orders the destruction of a dog pursuant to subsection (1) of this section, the Court may—

(a) direct that the dog be delivered to a dog warden or any suitable person to be destroyed, and

(b) direct that the expenses of the destruction of the dog be paid by the owner of the dog.

(3) Whenever a dog is delivered to a dog warden or any other person pursuant to an order of the Court to be destroyed, the person to whom the dog is delivered shall, as soon as possible, destroy the dog, or cause it to be destroyed, in a humane manner.

(4) Any sums payable by the owner of a dog pursuant to a direction of the Court under subsection (2) (b) of this section may be recovered by a local authority as a simple contract debt in any court of competent jurisdiction.

(5) Where a dog is proved to have caused damage in an attack on any person, or to have injured livestock, it may be dealt with under this section as a dangerous dog which has not been kept under proper control.

Edited to add... Under the same Act, Section 16 outlines the power of the warden to seize a dog that he/she believes to have been involved in an offence. Note that the warden can hold the dog until the decision has been made on the dog's future.
In all circumstances, the property of a person, including a dog, cannot be permanently taken from them without a day in court. In some cases, the owner volunteers to have the dog euthanased prior to the court case. But this is one of only two circumstances in which a dog might be destroyed prior to a Judge giving direction on it, the other circumstance being where the dog is actively causing undue threat or injury to a person or livestock at that moment. Perhaps these circumstances are what's causing confusion as to what happens to dogs involved in dangerous dogs offences.

16.—(1) A dog warden may—

(a) where he has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing, or has committed, an offence under this Act or under any regulation or bye-law made thereunder, request of the person his name and address and may request that any information given be verified;

(b) seize any dog and detain it in order to ascertain whether an offence under this Act is being or has been committed and may enter any premises (other than a dwelling) for the purposes of such seizure and detention;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1986/act/32/section/16/enacted/en/html#sec16

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This post has been deleted.

WestWing

need_info wrote: »

Hi, last Wednesday the oil man came and I forgot to check if the gate was locked after he left I jus assumed he had. My dogs got out and my neighbor told me he had locked them back in that night when he got home.
My daughters friends told her that they had been in a fight and the garda had been called, which I didn't believe. I didn't think it was a Garda matter. I was wrong.
The dog warden had called Saturday afternoon when I wasn't home, I tried calling him back Sunday, then got through to him Monday. That's when I was told the fight really did happen and that a woman was knocked over, and the dog was seriously injured. I would have to pay the vets bill which I totally 100% agree with, my dog shouldn't have attacked - I was in shock. My dogs are friendly dogs, the boxer is boisterous and likes to be heard. He is territorial but not to the extent that he attacks, he has often sat at the door with me while sales people, food delivery people came to the door.
The dog warden told me he and the Garda would come up Tuesday and we would talk. When he arrived Charlie didn't even bark or want anything to do with them. The dog warden told me Charlie was a dangerous dog because he knocked over the woman and fought with the dog and injured him badly.
The Garda told me that it was a bad thing that Charlie was territorial, he could attack a child, which I pointed out the kids are in and out the whole time, my neighbors son was constantly coming in and out over the wall to play with him and my other dog when I wasn't home, sometimes when I was home, and that the children weren't in danger from my dog.
My problem is because the dog warden has decided that Charlie my boxer is a dangerous dog because he knocked a woman to the ground and fought with her dog and injured him that my dog should be destroyed - the extent of the injury I wasn't told, the circumstances surrounding what happened when I was away I wasn't told.
The Garda tried to put it down my neck that I actually came home put the dogs in, but didn't lock my gate properly and they got out again, which I didn't do. I mean, what would I do that for? I have one dog 8 years and Charlie the boxer for three years and this is the first time.
Then he told me Charlie charged at him barking but didn't attack because he shouted and raised his leg which, from what I know about dogs that want to attack, wouldn't stop it's only giving them something to grab onto. The dog warden started talking about a dog in England killing a man and a child, and at this stage I had heard enough, Charlie wasn't going to kill anyone. I know my dog.
I have a lock on my gate now so that it won't happen again, my dad is building a fence around the oil tank so that the dogs won't be able get out ever again, the dog warden wasn't interested.
s,
DBB

OP, in all honesty it doesn't seem that you know how the Boxer behaves when not in your company.

You initally stated that you forgot to check if the gate was locked, then later that "i have a lock on my gate now so that it won't happen again". Did you actually have the gate locked before the incident? If not, that's simply irresponsible for a dog owner.

The one piece of advice I would offer would be to speak to your neighbour. You mentioned their son regularly plays with your dogs when you are not home and never displayed any aggression, which would suggest neither dog is prone to territorial behavior. If the neigbour is willing, ask them to sign an affidavit to that affect and present it in court.

Also, If you are successful in getting him back, I would suggest muzzling him, especially if children are playing with him when you are not present.

need_info

Sorry about the mess of a post I don't think she was injured I haven't had contact with the woman he knocked over. I don't know if she was injured or not neither the dog warden or the Garda told me what had happened when we asked all we were told was it was serious and that they were taking my dog.
She tried to put the bill on my account in the vets already we have the same vet so I moved the bill onto my account and will be paying it.

njs030

It's possible she was knocked down trying to separate them or by the dogs movement. Not everyone has the common sense to drop a dog lead during a fight and back away so maybe that's what happened. It doesn't mean the dog is people agressive.

Op have you contacted a solicitor???

kathleen37

You really need to contact the woman to apologise.

_Brian

kathleen37 wrote: »

You really need to contact the woman to apologise.

This..
So much this...

I cant believe OP hasn't bothered to contact the poor woman affected by this attack... bad form

need_info

I don't where she lives I wasn't given any information about who she is, I assumed she was from this street because the fight happened in this street, no one I know in the street even heard about the dogs being out or about the fight I have asked. The only reason I know her name is because I was paying for my kittens bill and they told me about the despite on my account. I am still trying to find out where she lives.
It was irresponsible of me not to check the gate, to be honest I don't know what my dogs get up to when I am not home but they are usually in my yard. I have asked my neighbors have my dogs ever bothered them when I am not home and they told me they haven't.
Thank you for all your help.

martingriff

need_info wrote: »

I don't where she lives I wasn't given any information about who she is, I assumed she was from this street because the fight happened in this street, no one I know in the street even heard about the dogs being out or about the fight I have asked. The only reason I know her name is because I was paying for my kittens bill and they told me about the despite on my account. I am still trying to find out where she lives.
It was irresponsible of me not to check the gate, to be honest I don't know what my dogs get up to when I am not home but they are usually in my yard. I have asked my neighbors have my dogs ever bothered them when I am not home and they told me they haven't.
Thank you for all your help.

Sorry but this is irresponsible and the first thing you must rectify after finding the person and dog that was attached.

It is your dog and you are responsible. Any dog and I mean ANY DOG can attack and if that happens and anything serious happens you may not have any recourse open to you. I hope you get your dog back but take this as a lesson learned

Fakediamond

Maybe you could leave a letter of apology in to your vet, to pass on to the woman? You could also ask the Garda to pass it on, on your behalf. I wouldn't wait until the Court date to do that, otherwise it looks self-serving and insincere.

Also, just to be aware, you may be charged board and lodging for the dog, while he's in the care of the authorities. I followed a case in my area, where a woman spent thousands of euro defending a case where her dog badly bit a woman on the arm (unprovoked). She lost the case and he was euthanised. She had to pay for everything, including witness expenses and board and lodging, as well as her legal bills. The victim attended all the Court cases and was very distressed by the whole process. She was also sued for damages in the Civil Court by the victim.

You have a lot to think about.

Get legal advice, get a behavioural assessment, pay the bill, write the apology. It will all help.

razorblunt

It's a tough situation you're in OP but you have to really go above and beyond what is expected of you in this situation. The first thing of course should be to see a solicitor, that goes without saying. Then you need to pro-actively go about doing the below, if you haven't done so already:

1. Make the back garden more secure, add safety features wherever possible
2. Leave a card with the vet for the lady who was involved, leave your number/address at the bottom if she wants to get in contact with you
3. Get a behavioural expert in


They should all show your trying your best to ensure it won't happen again.

Coincidentally I came across the after shots of a boxer attack on another dog on IMGUR last night, horrific.
I'm not saying this was the case here and I'm not trying to guilt you, it's more the fact another poster was saying Boxers aren't like that.