terrible refs

bobob

Was at an u15 match today in ballina where claremorris werre visitors. Never saw such a poor display of Refing a match. I'm a ballina supporter but thought it was an absolute disgrace the was a Sligo ref rode the claremorris lads. For a rugby man to see young lads so frustrated by a ref that didn't seem to know the rules of the game is demoralizing to say the least. In the interest of the game and fair play in general that ref should never set foot on a pitch again

Losty Dublin

Shouldn't you have refereed it instead of him?

bobob

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Shouldn't you have refereed it instead of him?

Her actually

sydthebeat

bobob wrote: »

Her actually

Does that make a difference?

Losty Dublin

bobob wrote: »

Her actually

My bad:rolleyes:

An old ARLB ref, long departed had a great saying for the touchline referees. Stick to our law book before you cry foul

bobob

sydthebeat wrote: »

Does that make a difference?

Absolutely none. But the fact that the ref didn't seem to understand the basic rules of the breakdown I.e. entering Ruck through the gate etc. Really cost claremorris. I should be delighted as a father of one of the ballina team, but to see a team which was by far better than ballina cheated out of a game is terrible. If the game in the west is to improve then this issue needs to be resolved, because kids get peed of and leave the game which is no good for anyone

swiwi_

bobob wrote: »

Was at an u15 match today in ballina where claremorris werre visitors. Never saw such a poor display of Refing a match. I'm a ballina supporter but thought it was an absolute disgrace the was a Sligo ref rode the claremorris lads. For a rugby man to see young lads so frustrated by a ref that didn't seem to know the rules of the game is demoralizing to say the least. In the interest of the game and fair play in general that ref should never set foot on a pitch again

Are we supposed to care?

I mean you're talking about an U15 club game...

The Lost Sheep

You may feel aggrieved and that is fine but posting here is not the right place to air any grievances about this match officials performance
Referees make mistakes just like every single player, coach. They don't intend to make them but they do.
If you are saying the ref is so poor then why don't you volunteer and take up the whistle as im sure you would be able to do a much better job.

The Association of Referees Connacht Branch (ARCB) will be holding our next New Referees Course on Sunday 08th January 2017 in the Sportsground. Im sure they would be delighted if you turned up and volunteered to be a ref.
http://www.arcb.ie/new-referees-course-jan-2017/

wp_rathead

bobob wrote: »

Was at an u15 match today in ballina where claremorris werre visitors. Never saw such a poor display of Refing a match. I'm a ballina supporter but thought it was an absolute disgrace the was a Sligo ref rode the claremorris lads. For a rugby man to see young lads so frustrated by a ref that didn't seem to know the rules of the game is demoralizing to say the least. In the interest of the game and fair play in general that ref should never set foot on a pitch again

Wouldn't have been a game without ref, have a bit of class

bobob

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You may feel aggrieved and that is fine but posting here is not the right place to air any grievances about this match officials performance
Referees make mistakes just like every single player, coach. They don't intend to make them but they do.
If you are saying the ref is so poor then why don't you volunteer and take up the whistle as im sure you would be able to do a much better job.

The Association of Referees Connacht Branch (ARCB) will be holding our next New Referees Course on Sunday 08th January 2017 in the Sportsground. Im sure they would be delighted if you turned up and volunteered to be a ref.
http://www.arcb.ie/new-referees-course-jan-2017/

I played for years and have been a ref a coach and a mini rugby organiser and know the craic around the game. In fact if anything I often took your stance that refs and players etc make mistakes. But when a person is not competent to do a job they should not be asked. And why should we care? Maybe we shouldn't but for young lads playing u15 it's a big deal.

The Lost Sheep

bobob wrote: »

I played for years and have been a ref a coach and a mini rugby organiser and know the craic around the game. In fact if anything I often took your stance that refs and players etc make mistakes. But when a person is not competent to do a job they should not be asked. And why should we care? Maybe we shouldn't but for young lads playing u15 it's a big deal.

Well if you think you "know the craic" and have been a ref then you know how foolish posting a thread on here is.
The referee would not have been appointed to the game if they were not thought competent.

CatFromHue

If it's an U15 game then the ref is probably pretty inexperienced, that's why they're reffing in U15 game.

ScrubsfanChris

Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your post.
I guessing besides yourself, no other boardsie here was at the game, so how could we give an opinion on the match and the ref?

Seems like you're just venting. Bring this up at your next branch meeting if you feel so aggrieved.

tanko

Sounds like Jaco Peyper was the ref.

The Rape of Lucretia

CatFromHue wrote: »

If it's an U15 game then the ref is probably pretty inexperienced, that's why they're reffing in U15 game.

Fundamentally thats it. Think of the refs you see at international level. And they mistakes you might think they make.

Then think of the gulf from international rugby to U15 in Sligo. Its a very very very very low standard of rugby. And ref standard is likely to be in line with the drop in standard of players. You dont judge the players by how they would fare if they were thrown into an international game - recalibrate your expectations for the ref by the same amount.

A2LUE42

I remember one of the lads criticising an old ref while playing one day. It was a thrown together team at J2 or some level like that on a back pitch that was more mud than grass and hardly a line to be seen. The refs response was 'I'm reffing at this level for the same reason that you are playing at this level.'
:-)

Couldn't argue with that. If he wasn't there, we wouldn't have had a game to play.

kuang1

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Well if you think you "know the craic" and have been a ref then you know how foolish posting a thread on here is.
The referee would not have been appointed to the game if they were not thought competent.

For the sake of open argument...a ref at this level could be appointed because no other ref was available, or the originally appointed ref was ill or had family emergency etc...
Not a slam dunk argument to say that "The referee would not have been appointed to the game if they were not thought competent" at u-15 level.

(Not saying that this is the case here necessarily btw)

Losty Dublin

kuang1 wrote: »

For the sake of open argument...a ref at this level could be appointed because no other ref was available, or the originally appointed ref was ill or had family emergency etc...
Not a slam dunk argument to say that "The referee would not have been appointed to the game if they were not thought competent" at u-15 level.

(Not saying that this is the case here necessarily btw)

Or maybe they were only refereeing to get international tickets

Tim Robbins

It can happen at that level because it is difficult to get Branch Refs. Sometimes it's a coach or someone's Dad.

I think anyone who ref's any game of Rugby should have done the course and had an assessment. Reason, because it's a contact sport and if the laws aren't correctly applied it's dangerous. The sport is under the spot light for safety and this would be one way to make it safer.

If the ref didn't ref the gate properly it can put players ribs at risk as they take side hits they shouldn't be.

So, as grass roots people we have a decision if we can't get enough people to do the courses and pass an assessment (at least one a year), we have to consider paying them like they do in Soccer and GAA.

So back to the original poster, how would you and your team / club feel coughing up 50 euro every match?

Personally, I think that's the way the game should go. Would make it safer if anything. Deal is ref has to be assessed once a year (min.), has to pass a fitness test, has to be pass a law exam and the home team have to pay 50 euro's match. Then everyone shuts up and let the assessors do their job.

So are you offering any solution or just having a rant ?

bobob

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It can happen at that level because it is difficult to get Branch Refs. Sometimes it's a coach or someone's Dad.

I think anyone who ref's any game of Rugby should have done the course and had an assessment. Reason, because it's a contact sport and if the laws aren't correctly applied it's dangerous. The sport is under the spot light for safety and this would be one way to make it safer.

If the ref didn't ref the gate properly it can put players ribs at risk as they take side hits they shouldn't be.

So, as grass roots people we have a decision if we can't get enough people to do the courses and pass an assessment (at least one a year), we have to consider paying them like they do in Soccer and GAA.

So back to the original poster, how would you and your team / club feel coughing up 50 euro every match?

Personally, I think that's the way the game should go. Would make it safer if anything. Deal is ref has to be assessed once a year (min.), has to pass a fitness test, has to be pass a law exam and the home team have to pay 50 euro's match. Then everyone shuts up and let the assessors do their job.

So are you offering any solution or just having a rant ?

I think you are on the right track here. Make it possible to improve funding into the training of refs. After all they're probably one of the most important figures in the development of the game at this level. The ref is as responsible at this age group in teaching the game to youngsters as the coaches.

Tim Robbins

bobob wrote: »

I think you are on the right track here. Make it possible to improve funding into the training of refs. After all they're probably one of the most important figures in the development of the game at this level. The ref is as responsible at this age group in teaching the game to youngsters as the coaches.

Would agree. In my experience, in ref from U8 right up to J4 Adult rugby, you are making more of an effort to explain, facilitate, encourage etc and that's an important part of grass roots.

razorblunt

Was the ref a "proper" ref or one of the coaches running the game?
Forgive my ignorance but I haven't played u-14/u-16 in about 15 years but back then you'd very rarely have an official, it would just be someone from the home team running it. You'd inevitably run into situations like this but it was called "character" building and it definitely taught us a lot of biting your tongue.

I can genuinely only remember one game where it went appallingly biased, you generally find some of the coaches running the game would just try and maintain a scoreline more than anything else.

sydthebeat

razorblunt wrote: »

Was the ref a "proper" ref or one of the coaches running the game?
Forgive my ignorance but I haven't played u-14/u-16 in about 15 years but back then you'd very rarely have an official, it would just be someone from the home team running it. You'd inevitably run into situations like this but it was called "character" building and it definitely taught us a lot of biting your tongue.

I can genuinely only remember one game where it went appallingly biased, you generally find some of the coaches running the game would just try and maintain a scoreline more than anything else.

there are a limited amount of available referees on any given day, and ive no idea what the numbers are like over in the sligo side of connacht, but the way it works in our area is that all games are sent to the referee coordinator to provide refs. It usually works on priority from AIL downwards so the last to be provided with a ref would be U13s for example

If its a case where a referee isnt allocated, then in the first instance the travelling team are contacted to see if they can bring a branch or community referee. If they cannot then its the responsibility of the home team to appoint an 'affiliate' referee. An affiliate referee should not be a coach of the team that are playing. If no affiliate referee available with the home team, the away team can then provide one.

anyone can become an affiliate referee by:
1. completing the online WR law module
2. completing the online concussion awareness programme
3. sitting a 2 1/2 hour course

my experience with affiliate referees is that some of them are quite good in that they study the game and the laws and in a lot of cases have played the game before so understand the basics of the contact area. But at the end of the day they are still volunteers who were usually only roped on the day. They are not refs who referee week in week out, and that should be understood by the supporters.

Zzippy

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So, as grass roots people we have a decision if we can't get enough people to do the courses and pass an assessment (at least one a year), we have to consider paying them like they do in Soccer and GAA.

So back to the original poster, how would you and your team / club feel coughing up 50 euro every match?

Do the GAA pay refs that much? I used to ref underage GAA (a long time ago admittedly) and it was handy pocket money, 10-15 quid a game for a student was nice beer money when that would get you a good few pints, but can't imagine they get 100 euro a game now. I didn't drive back then but the money was there to cover costs such as driving to/from the game etc.

Do rugby refs not get paid something?

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It can happen at that level because it is difficult to get Branch Refs. Sometimes it's a coach or someone's Dad.

I think anyone who ref's any game of Rugby should have done the course and had an assessment. Reason, because it's a contact sport and if the laws aren't correctly applied it's dangerous. The sport is under the spot light for safety and this would be one way to make it safer.

If the ref didn't ref the gate properly it can put players ribs at risk as they take side hits they shouldn't be.

So, as grass roots people we have a decision if we can't get enough people to do the courses and pass an assessment (at least one a year), we have to consider paying them like they do in Soccer and GAA.

So back to the original poster, how would you and your team / club feel coughing up 50 euro every match?

Personally, I think that's the way the game should go. Would make it safer if anything. Deal is ref has to be assessed once a year (min.), has to pass a fitness test, has to be pass a law exam and the home team have to pay 50 euro's match. Then everyone shuts up and let the assessors do their job.

So are you offering any solution or just having a rant?

Anyone who refs a game wont have a done a course as that simply isn't feasible. If a branch association/society ref isn't appointed/fails to turn up you will have cases where its a coach/parent who wont necessarily have done any ref course

I don't think we have to say if we are not getting enough volunteers that we should start paying officials. People wont suddenly start taking up refereeing for getting maybe 40-50€

Ideally refs should be assessed very regularly but again that isn't always possible in terms of number of assessors, availability etc

razorblunt wrote: »

Was the ref a "proper" ref or one of the coaches running the game?

Forgive my ignorance but I haven't played u-14/u-16 in about 15 years but back then you'd very rarely have an official, it would just be someone from the home team running it. You'd inevitably run into situations like this but it was called "character" building and it definitely taught us a lot of biting your tongue.

I can genuinely only remember one game where it went appallingly biased, you generally find some of the coaches running the game would just try and maintain a scoreline more than anything else.

You will regularly have referees at 16s but 13s/14s wont as theyre bottom of the pile.

sydthebeat wrote: »

there are a limited amount of available referees on any given day, and ive no idea what the numbers are like over in the sligo side of connacht, but the way it works in our area is that all games are sent to the referee coordinator to provide refs. It usually works on priority from AIL downwards so the last to be provided with a ref would be U13s for example

If its a case where a referee isnt allocated, then in the first instance the travelling team are contacted to see if they can bring a branch or community referee. If they cannot then its the responsibility of the home team to appoint an 'affiliate' referee. An affiliate referee should not be a coach of the team that are playing. If no affiliate referee available with the home team, the away team can then provide one.

anyone can become an affiliate referee by:
1. completing the online WR law module
2. completing the online concussion awareness programme
3. sitting a 2 1/2 hour course

my experience with affiliate referees is that some of them are quite good in that they study the game and the laws and in a lot of cases have played the game before so understand the basics of the contact area. But at the end of the day they are still volunteers who were usually only roped on the day. They are not refs who referee week in week out, and that should be understood by the supporters.

It does work AIL down and as you go up games can only really be officiated by referees at a certain level. Referees are divided into levels based on ability. Levels 1 to 4 and j1 games must have a level 4 ref doing the game so if there is a change in a level 4 game then there may be multiple changes to appointments.

Affiliates will vary hugely as they don't attend ref meetings and it totally varies on what they do to train up even more so than members who attend ref meetings

Zzippy wrote: »

Do the GAA pay refs that much? I used to ref underage GAA (a long time ago admittedly) and it was handy pocket money, 10-15 quid a game for a student was nice beer money when that would get you a good few pints, but can't imagine they get 100 euro a game now. I didn't drive back then but the money was there to cover costs such as driving to/from the game etc.

Do rugby refs not get paid something?

Travel expenses is all we get.

Taking the OP at face value, he is right in a major aspect.

Anyone who can not ref the correct entry to a ruck should not be on the pitch.
I'm sorry but it is about player safety.

And yes, I would rather see a game called off than risk my son in that manner.
One catastrophic neck injury, in the family, is enough thank you very much

Zzippy

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Travel expenses is all we get.

Vouched expenses or a flat fee per game?

When I reffed GAA I would often be doing 2-3 games a week so for a student it was a nice bit of pocket money. At the time it varied from £8 for u-10 up to £16 for an u-16 game. No idea what it is now. If I hadn't moved away I would probably have kept it up and moved up to senior games as I got older. Offering a few quid for a game might be a way to get student-age guys and girls into reffing underage games - get enough of them into the system and some of them will stick at it.

Two quid per player per week towards a ref equals 50/60 quid which would make it worthwhile for a lot of people...

brocbrocach

GAA teams (at junior level anyway, dunno about higher standard) give €20 per team. So the ref gets €40 for each match. It's not a fortune but might make it more likely to get a decent ref to do 2 or 3 matches on a weekend etc. Supposedly ref numbers went way up when the recession hit, probably a combination of people having more time on their hands and people looking to top up with a few quid extra.
It's very small money per person if players are at all committed.
Rugby refereeing, though players are more respectful, has a bit more to it than GAA i'd say. Responsibility for injuries is more serious and rules are more complicated. You also don't have the vast pool of former players GAA has in non-traditional rugby counties.

Zzippy

brocbrocach wrote: »

GAA teams (at junior level anyway, dunno about higher standard) give €20 per team. So the ref gets €40 for each match. It's not a fortune but might make it more likely to get a decent ref to do 2 or 3 matches on a weekend etc. Supposedly ref numbers went way up when the recession hit, probably a combination of people having more time on their hands and people looking to top up with a few quid extra.
It's very small money per person if players are at all committed.
Rugby refereeing, though players are more respectful, has a bit more to it than GAA i'd say. Responsibility for injuries is more serious and rules are more complicated. You also don't have the vast pool of former players GAA has in non-traditional rugby counties.

All the more reason to pay them something...

brocbrocach

Zzippy wrote: »

All the more reason to pay them something...

Yep

The Lost Sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Taking the OP at face value, he is right in a major aspect.

Anyone who can not ref the correct entry to a ruck should not be on the pitch.
I'm sorry but it is about player safety.

And yes, I would rather see a game called off than risk my son in that manner.
One catastrophic neck injury, in the family, is enough thank you very much

Not really. A ref can learn and if they miss some things then they get training and learn.

Zzippy wrote: »

Vouched expenses or a flat fee per game?

When I reffed GAA I would often be doing 2-3 games a week so for a student it was a nice bit of pocket money. At the time it varied from £8 for u-10 up to £16 for an u-16 game. No idea what it is now. If I hadn't moved away I would probably have kept it up and moved up to senior games as I got older. Offering a few quid for a game might be a way to get student-age guys and girls into reffing underage games - get enough of them into the system and some of them will stick at it.

Two quid per player per week towards a ref equals 50/60 quid which would make it worthwhile for a lot of people...

Vouched expenses. I don't think money necessarily is way to get more people doing games.

brocbrocach wrote: »

GAA teams (at junior level anyway, dunno about higher standard) give €20 per team. So the ref gets €40 for each match. It's not a fortune but might make it more likely to get a decent ref to do 2 or 3 matches on a weekend etc. Supposedly ref numbers went way up when the recession hit, probably a combination of people having more time on their hands and people looking to top up with a few quid extra.
It's very small money per person if players are at all committed.
Rugby refereeing, though players are more respectful, has a bit more to it than GAA i'd say. Responsibility for injuries is more serious and rules are more complicated. You also don't have the vast pool of former players GAA has in non-traditional rugby counties.

Depends on the province and area but there is plenty of refs who will do 2 games plus a weekend.
Rugby refereeing is appointed provincially so its not a worry about people not from an area refereeing though most clubs will have some officials and there is always people not affiliated to any club/school who ref.

The Lost Sheep

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not really. A ref can learn and if they miss some things then they get training and learn.

Ruck entry is a basic knowledge skill set which can be taught very easily, allowing u15 enter from the side is dangerous. System that states a ref can learn about it afterwards is negligent.

There is a duty of care to the players, especially minors.

Zzippy

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Vouched expenses. I don't think money necessarily is way to get more people doing games.

Money wasn't what got me into refereeing but as a student it certainly encouraged me to volunteer for more games, and the more games I did the more experience I got and moved up the age grades. If you want to get young people taking up refereeing before they're lost to the game for good it certainly wouldn't hurt.

The Lost Sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Ruck entry is a basic knowledge skill set which can be taught very easily, allowing u15 enter from the side is dangerous. System that states a ref can learn about it afterwards is negligent.

There is a duty of care to the players, especially minors.

There is a duty of care but you weren't at the game. I wasn't either but there is always entry from the side in a game and it wont always be dangerous. A ref learns from their mistakes. There is a duty of care but this ref was fine in the game and like everyone, coaches, players .... will learn from the game.

Refs like players need to learn and improve in games as well.

brocbrocach

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not really. A ref can learn and if they miss some things then they get training and learn.

Vouched expenses. I don't think money necessarily is way to get more people doing games.

Depends on the province and area but there is plenty of refs who will do 2 games plus a weekend.
Rugby refereeing is appointed provincially so its not a worry about people not from an area refereeing though most clubs will have some officials and there is always people not affiliated to any club/school who ref.

Gosh, are you saying that the system is fine and nothing can be improved? :rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

Zzippy wrote: »

Money wasn't what got me into refereeing but as a student it certainly encouraged me to volunteer for more games, and the more games I did the more experience I got and moved up the age grades. If you want to get young people taking up refereeing before they're lost to the game for good it certainly wouldn't hurt.

A few years ago the ITRA decided to pay it's referees. Within a few years their referee standards fell drastically, partially because loads of inexperienced teens signed up looking for what was perceived to be pocket money. While there was other factors at hand, a lot of the older heads ended up in the IRFU tag systems where they were doing it for free

The Lost Sheep

brocbrocach wrote: »

Gosh, are you saying that the system is fine and nothing can be improved? :rolleyes:

Well done on debating the points at hand :rolleyes:
Paying people doesn't mean better referees. In no way does it as you will get more and more in it for the wrong reasons and that isn't a good thing or better for the game.

Zzippy

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Well done on debating the points at hand :rolleyes:
Paying people doesn't mean better referees. In no way does it as you will get more and more in it for the wrong reasons and that isn't a good thing or better for the game.

No one said paying people gets you better referees. You're totally misunderstanding the point. Paying people gets more people interested in actually doing it, as lack of referees appears to be a central theme emerging from this thread. It's up to the organisation then to ensure they are trained correctly, that they improve and are up to standard, that the better ones are retained and improve further to move up the ranks. It works for the GAA, why would it not work for rugby?

purpleisafruit

Having been involved in refereeing, starting out can be very difficult. You're almost begging co-ordinators to give you games. It can be very clique-y and some refs get multiple games over a weekend at multiple levels. Seen situations where one guy was given 4 games in a week and I was left calling up clubs offering my services. I hasten to add that 2 of these games were underage, non-schools games.
Beginners make a lot of mistakes but you learn quickly and you're assessed multiple times per year, given things to work on and you get better. Everyone has to start somewhere and whilst failing to referee the breakdown correctly is bad, scrums are a huge focus for beginners. You want to make sure that scrums aren't collapsing for no reason to ensure some 15 year old doesn't end up paralysed.

brocbrocach

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Well done on debating the points at hand :rolleyes:
Paying people doesn't mean better referees. In no way does it as you will get more and more in it for the wrong reasons and that isn't a good thing or better for the game.

You're not contributing to the debate yourself. You're just saying everything is fine, la la la la. How can more refs being available not be a good thing in just the same way as a bigger playing base is a good thing?
A referee untrained/unskilled enough to not penalise wholesale side-entry on a ruck (going on the OP, maybe it was an interpretation) shouldn't be learning on the job and ruining the game for the other 30 participants. More referees would mean less reliance on untrained or bad refs.

The Lost Sheep

Zzippy wrote: »

No one said paying people gets you better referees. You're totally misunderstanding the point. Paying people gets more people interested in actually doing it, as lack of referees appears to be a central theme emerging from this thread. It's up to the organisation then to ensure they are trained correctly, that they improve and are up to standard, that the better ones are retained and improve further to move up the ranks. It works for the GAA, why would it not work for rugby?

I don't see that I am and paying refs wont really get more people doing it, or at least the right people, in many cases.
GAA refs get travel, per KM, and then subsistence costs and that's what rugby refs get as well.

purpleisafruit wrote: »

Having been involved in refereeing, starting out can be very difficult. You're almost begging co-ordinators to give you games. It can be very clique-y and some refs get multiple games over a weekend at multiple levels. Seen situations where one guy was given 4 games in a week and I was left calling up clubs offering my services. I hasten to add that 2 of these games were underage, non-schools games.
Beginners make a lot of mistakes but you learn quickly and you're assessed multiple times per year, given things to work on and you get better. Everyone has to start somewhere and whilst failing to referee the breakdown correctly is bad, scrums are a huge focus for beginners. You want to make sure that scrums aren't collapsing for no reason to ensure some 15 year old doesn't end up paralysed.

Never have had that issue with getting games and yes there will be some refs who get multiple games at multiple levels in a weekend but quite often many of them will be refs getting extra training and coaching and are in a development panel.

brocbrocach wrote: »

You're not contributing to the debate yourself. You're just saying everything is fine, la la la la. How can more refs being available not be a good thing in just the same way as a bigger playing base is a good thing?
A referee untrained/unskilled enough to not penalise wholesale side-entry on a ruck (going on the OP, maybe it was an interpretation) shouldn't be learning on the job and ruining the game for the other 30 participants. More referees would mean less reliance on untrained or bad refs.

The OP thinks this ref in this game couldn't ref side entry at ruck but quite often there is many things ignored in a game that are not picked up. We don't know if OP is correct. This ref wouldn't have been reffing at 15s without having already been looked at at younger age groups. A ref has to learn on the job. As workshops off pitch are not enough as how else do you learn but in practice on the pitch. Saying a ref ruins a game is a nonsense. Should we say similar if players cant pass/tackle etc????

brocbrocach

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't see that I am and paying refs wont really get more people doing it, or at least the right people, in many cases.
GAA refs get travel, per KM, and then subsistence costs and that's what rugby refs get as well.

Never have had that issue with getting games and yes there will be some refs who get multiple games at multiple levels in a weekend but quite often many of them will be refs getting extra training and coaching and are in a development panel.

The OP thinks this ref in this game couldn't ref side entry at ruck but quite often there is many things ignored in a game that are not picked up. We don't know if OP is correct. This ref wouldn't have been reffing at 15s without having already been looked at at younger age groups. A ref has to learn on the job. As workshops off pitch are not enough as how else do you learn but in practice on the pitch. Saying a ref ruins a game is a nonsense. Should we say similar if players cant pass/tackle etc????

GAA refs get paid a flat amount from each team in a match. It's not a fortune but it probably makes up a bit for being roared at for 2 hours. I don't think it attracts gold-diggers but it helps keep good refs.
How else do you learn? There is a basic understanding needed before stepping on a pitch. Refs need to start at that base level. A poor ref can ruin a game very easily, he/she is vastly more influential than any one player.

CMOTDibbler

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't see that I am and paying refs wont really get more people doing it, or at least the right people, in many cases.
GAA refs get travel, per KM, and then subsistence costs and that's what rugby refs get as well.

Somebody who wants a few bob for their time and effort in training to be a ref and giving up their time to go to matches is the 'wrong' type of person. In many cases?

The Lost Sheep

brocbrocach wrote: »

GAA refs get paid a flat amount from each team in a match. It's not a fortune but it probably makes up a bit for being roared at for 2 hours. I don't think it attracts gold-diggers but it helps keep good refs.
How else do you learn? There is a basic understanding needed before stepping on a pitch. Refs need to start at that base level. A poor ref can ruin a game very easily, he/she is vastly more influential than any one player.

How do you define this base level? Refs will gain an understanding while in meetings hosted by dev officers/experienced referees however you can only truly learn by doing games.

brocbrocach

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How do you define this base level? Refs will gain an understanding while in meetings hosted by dev officers/experienced referees however you can only truly learn by doing games.

I'd be far happier with the idea of retaining trained refs by giving them small monetary compensation, although they're not "the right people" according to yourself, than training up someone from scratch by letting them ruin other peoples weekly match.

The Lost Sheep

brocbrocach wrote: »

I'd be far happier with the idea of retaining trained refs by giving them small monetary compensation, although they're not "the right people" according to yourself, than training up someone from scratch by letting them ruin other peoples weekly match.

You can only train referees up by giving them games.
You can only see if someone is suitable for a game by giving them games. A poor ref doesn't ruin peoples matches. Does people who cant pass the ball, who cant tackle ruin the game for their team mates?

Paying referees doesn't make better refs or necessarily get people who may be better refs to volunteer and train and become a referee.

Quin_Dub

Fundamentally, at junior/youth level the only minimum expectation that I have from a referee is consistency and control..

They won't see everything , they won't get everything right but as long as they are consistent in their interpretations and they exhibit control over the game then I'm fine.

By Control , I typically mean being decisive and authoritative in their decision making.

Players need to be able to adapt to a referee and typically as long as everyone is being treated the same, players will view that as fair and get on with it..

I'll give a recent example , at a game last week-end at U18 level the referee had a somewhat different interpretation of the breakdown than we had been used to - He basically allowed the ball carrier to hold the ballfor about 6 or 8 seconds on the ground even if a player was jackaling over him.. If the jackaler survived any clear-outs in that period he'd then give a penalty to them. Our guys would have been expecting to get the penalty much much earlier..

However unique his interpretation he was absolutely consistent in it.. It took our lads most of the 1st half to adjust, particularly in terms of them holding on to possession on the ground that bit longer , but they did eventually and went on to win the game well.

A lack of consistency is the biggest thing that will de-rail the discipline in a game.

I've been on all sides over the years - Player , Coach , Referee and spectator and it's not easy to please everyone , but in my experience if people see consistency and control regardless of the underlying standard of the referreeing , then they'll be happy enough.