terrible refs

bobob

Was at an u15 match today in ballina where claremorris werre visitors. Never saw such a poor display of Refing a match. I'm a ballina supporter but thought it was an absolute disgrace the was a Sligo ref rode the claremorris lads. For a rugby man to see young lads so frustrated by a ref that didn't seem to know the rules of the game is demoralizing to say the least. In the interest of the game and fair play in general that ref should never set foot on a pitch again

Losty Dublin

Shouldn't you have refereed it instead of him?

bobob

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Shouldn't you have refereed it instead of him?

Her actually

sydthebeat

bobob wrote: »

Her actually

Does that make a difference?

Losty Dublin

bobob wrote: »

Her actually

My bad:rolleyes:

An old ARLB ref, long departed had a great saying for the touchline referees. Stick to our law book before you cry foul

bobob

sydthebeat wrote: »

Does that make a difference?

Absolutely none. But the fact that the ref didn't seem to understand the basic rules of the breakdown I.e. entering Ruck through the gate etc. Really cost claremorris. I should be delighted as a father of one of the ballina team, but to see a team which was by far better than ballina cheated out of a game is terrible. If the game in the west is to improve then this issue needs to be resolved, because kids get peed of and leave the game which is no good for anyone

swiwi_

bobob wrote: »

Was at an u15 match today in ballina where claremorris werre visitors. Never saw such a poor display of Refing a match. I'm a ballina supporter but thought it was an absolute disgrace the was a Sligo ref rode the claremorris lads. For a rugby man to see young lads so frustrated by a ref that didn't seem to know the rules of the game is demoralizing to say the least. In the interest of the game and fair play in general that ref should never set foot on a pitch again

Are we supposed to care?

I mean you're talking about an U15 club game...

The Lost Sheep

You may feel aggrieved and that is fine but posting here is not the right place to air any grievances about this match officials performance
Referees make mistakes just like every single player, coach. They don't intend to make them but they do.
If you are saying the ref is so poor then why don't you volunteer and take up the whistle as im sure you would be able to do a much better job.

The Association of Referees Connacht Branch (ARCB) will be holding our next New Referees Course on Sunday 08th January 2017 in the Sportsground. Im sure they would be delighted if you turned up and volunteered to be a ref.
http://www.arcb.ie/new-referees-course-jan-2017/

wp_rathead

bobob wrote: »

Was at an u15 match today in ballina where claremorris werre visitors. Never saw such a poor display of Refing a match. I'm a ballina supporter but thought it was an absolute disgrace the was a Sligo ref rode the claremorris lads. For a rugby man to see young lads so frustrated by a ref that didn't seem to know the rules of the game is demoralizing to say the least. In the interest of the game and fair play in general that ref should never set foot on a pitch again

Wouldn't have been a game without ref, have a bit of class

bobob

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You may feel aggrieved and that is fine but posting here is not the right place to air any grievances about this match officials performance
Referees make mistakes just like every single player, coach. They don't intend to make them but they do.
If you are saying the ref is so poor then why don't you volunteer and take up the whistle as im sure you would be able to do a much better job.

The Association of Referees Connacht Branch (ARCB) will be holding our next New Referees Course on Sunday 08th January 2017 in the Sportsground. Im sure they would be delighted if you turned up and volunteered to be a ref.
http://www.arcb.ie/new-referees-course-jan-2017/

I played for years and have been a ref a coach and a mini rugby organiser and know the craic around the game. In fact if anything I often took your stance that refs and players etc make mistakes. But when a person is not competent to do a job they should not be asked. And why should we care? Maybe we shouldn't but for young lads playing u15 it's a big deal.

The Lost Sheep

bobob wrote: »

I played for years and have been a ref a coach and a mini rugby organiser and know the craic around the game. In fact if anything I often took your stance that refs and players etc make mistakes. But when a person is not competent to do a job they should not be asked. And why should we care? Maybe we shouldn't but for young lads playing u15 it's a big deal.

Well if you think you "know the craic" and have been a ref then you know how foolish posting a thread on here is.
The referee would not have been appointed to the game if they were not thought competent.

CatFromHue

If it's an U15 game then the ref is probably pretty inexperienced, that's why they're reffing in U15 game.

ScrubsfanChris

Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your post.
I guessing besides yourself, no other boardsie here was at the game, so how could we give an opinion on the match and the ref?

Seems like you're just venting. Bring this up at your next branch meeting if you feel so aggrieved.

tanko

Sounds like Jaco Peyper was the ref.

The Rape of Lucretia

CatFromHue wrote: »

If it's an U15 game then the ref is probably pretty inexperienced, that's why they're reffing in U15 game.

Fundamentally thats it. Think of the refs you see at international level. And they mistakes you might think they make.

Then think of the gulf from international rugby to U15 in Sligo. Its a very very very very low standard of rugby. And ref standard is likely to be in line with the drop in standard of players. You dont judge the players by how they would fare if they were thrown into an international game - recalibrate your expectations for the ref by the same amount.

A2LUE42

I remember one of the lads criticising an old ref while playing one day. It was a thrown together team at J2 or some level like that on a back pitch that was more mud than grass and hardly a line to be seen. The refs response was 'I'm reffing at this level for the same reason that you are playing at this level.'
:-)

Couldn't argue with that. If he wasn't there, we wouldn't have had a game to play.

kuang1

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Well if you think you "know the craic" and have been a ref then you know how foolish posting a thread on here is.
The referee would not have been appointed to the game if they were not thought competent.

For the sake of open argument...a ref at this level could be appointed because no other ref was available, or the originally appointed ref was ill or had family emergency etc...
Not a slam dunk argument to say that "The referee would not have been appointed to the game if they were not thought competent" at u-15 level.

(Not saying that this is the case here necessarily btw)

Losty Dublin

kuang1 wrote: »

For the sake of open argument...a ref at this level could be appointed because no other ref was available, or the originally appointed ref was ill or had family emergency etc...
Not a slam dunk argument to say that "The referee would not have been appointed to the game if they were not thought competent" at u-15 level.

(Not saying that this is the case here necessarily btw)

Or maybe they were only refereeing to get international tickets

Tim Robbins

It can happen at that level because it is difficult to get Branch Refs. Sometimes it's a coach or someone's Dad.

I think anyone who ref's any game of Rugby should have done the course and had an assessment. Reason, because it's a contact sport and if the laws aren't correctly applied it's dangerous. The sport is under the spot light for safety and this would be one way to make it safer.

If the ref didn't ref the gate properly it can put players ribs at risk as they take side hits they shouldn't be.

So, as grass roots people we have a decision if we can't get enough people to do the courses and pass an assessment (at least one a year), we have to consider paying them like they do in Soccer and GAA.

So back to the original poster, how would you and your team / club feel coughing up 50 euro every match?

Personally, I think that's the way the game should go. Would make it safer if anything. Deal is ref has to be assessed once a year (min.), has to pass a fitness test, has to be pass a law exam and the home team have to pay 50 euro's match. Then everyone shuts up and let the assessors do their job.

So are you offering any solution or just having a rant ?

bobob

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It can happen at that level because it is difficult to get Branch Refs. Sometimes it's a coach or someone's Dad.

I think anyone who ref's any game of Rugby should have done the course and had an assessment. Reason, because it's a contact sport and if the laws aren't correctly applied it's dangerous. The sport is under the spot light for safety and this would be one way to make it safer.

If the ref didn't ref the gate properly it can put players ribs at risk as they take side hits they shouldn't be.

So, as grass roots people we have a decision if we can't get enough people to do the courses and pass an assessment (at least one a year), we have to consider paying them like they do in Soccer and GAA.

So back to the original poster, how would you and your team / club feel coughing up 50 euro every match?

Personally, I think that's the way the game should go. Would make it safer if anything. Deal is ref has to be assessed once a year (min.), has to pass a fitness test, has to be pass a law exam and the home team have to pay 50 euro's match. Then everyone shuts up and let the assessors do their job.

So are you offering any solution or just having a rant ?

I think you are on the right track here. Make it possible to improve funding into the training of refs. After all they're probably one of the most important figures in the development of the game at this level. The ref is as responsible at this age group in teaching the game to youngsters as the coaches.

Tim Robbins

bobob wrote: »

I think you are on the right track here. Make it possible to improve funding into the training of refs. After all they're probably one of the most important figures in the development of the game at this level. The ref is as responsible at this age group in teaching the game to youngsters as the coaches.

Would agree. In my experience, in ref from U8 right up to J4 Adult rugby, you are making more of an effort to explain, facilitate, encourage etc and that's an important part of grass roots.

razorblunt

Was the ref a "proper" ref or one of the coaches running the game?
Forgive my ignorance but I haven't played u-14/u-16 in about 15 years but back then you'd very rarely have an official, it would just be someone from the home team running it. You'd inevitably run into situations like this but it was called "character" building and it definitely taught us a lot of biting your tongue.

I can genuinely only remember one game where it went appallingly biased, you generally find some of the coaches running the game would just try and maintain a scoreline more than anything else.

sydthebeat

razorblunt wrote: »

Was the ref a "proper" ref or one of the coaches running the game?
Forgive my ignorance but I haven't played u-14/u-16 in about 15 years but back then you'd very rarely have an official, it would just be someone from the home team running it. You'd inevitably run into situations like this but it was called "character" building and it definitely taught us a lot of biting your tongue.

I can genuinely only remember one game where it went appallingly biased, you generally find some of the coaches running the game would just try and maintain a scoreline more than anything else.

there are a limited amount of available referees on any given day, and ive no idea what the numbers are like over in the sligo side of connacht, but the way it works in our area is that all games are sent to the referee coordinator to provide refs. It usually works on priority from AIL downwards so the last to be provided with a ref would be U13s for example

If its a case where a referee isnt allocated, then in the first instance the travelling team are contacted to see if they can bring a branch or community referee. If they cannot then its the responsibility of the home team to appoint an 'affiliate' referee. An affiliate referee should not be a coach of the team that are playing. If no affiliate referee available with the home team, the away team can then provide one.

anyone can become an affiliate referee by:
1. completing the online WR law module
2. completing the online concussion awareness programme
3. sitting a 2 1/2 hour course

my experience with affiliate referees is that some of them are quite good in that they study the game and the laws and in a lot of cases have played the game before so understand the basics of the contact area. But at the end of the day they are still volunteers who were usually only roped on the day. They are not refs who referee week in week out, and that should be understood by the supporters.

Zzippy

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So, as grass roots people we have a decision if we can't get enough people to do the courses and pass an assessment (at least one a year), we have to consider paying them like they do in Soccer and GAA.

So back to the original poster, how would you and your team / club feel coughing up 50 euro every match?

Do the GAA pay refs that much? I used to ref underage GAA (a long time ago admittedly) and it was handy pocket money, 10-15 quid a game for a student was nice beer money when that would get you a good few pints, but can't imagine they get 100 euro a game now. I didn't drive back then but the money was there to cover costs such as driving to/from the game etc.

Do rugby refs not get paid something?

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It can happen at that level because it is difficult to get Branch Refs. Sometimes it's a coach or someone's Dad.

I think anyone who ref's any game of Rugby should have done the course and had an assessment. Reason, because it's a contact sport and if the laws aren't correctly applied it's dangerous. The sport is under the spot light for safety and this would be one way to make it safer.

If the ref didn't ref the gate properly it can put players ribs at risk as they take side hits they shouldn't be.

So, as grass roots people we have a decision if we can't get enough people to do the courses and pass an assessment (at least one a year), we have to consider paying them like they do in Soccer and GAA.

So back to the original poster, how would you and your team / club feel coughing up 50 euro every match?

Personally, I think that's the way the game should go. Would make it safer if anything. Deal is ref has to be assessed once a year (min.), has to pass a fitness test, has to be pass a law exam and the home team have to pay 50 euro's match. Then everyone shuts up and let the assessors do their job.

So are you offering any solution or just having a rant?

Anyone who refs a game wont have a done a course as that simply isn't feasible. If a branch association/society ref isn't appointed/fails to turn up you will have cases where its a coach/parent who wont necessarily have done any ref course

I don't think we have to say if we are not getting enough volunteers that we should start paying officials. People wont suddenly start taking up refereeing for getting maybe 40-50€

Ideally refs should be assessed very regularly but again that isn't always possible in terms of number of assessors, availability etc

razorblunt wrote: »

Was the ref a "proper" ref or one of the coaches running the game?

Forgive my ignorance but I haven't played u-14/u-16 in about 15 years but back then you'd very rarely have an official, it would just be someone from the home team running it. You'd inevitably run into situations like this but it was called "character" building and it definitely taught us a lot of biting your tongue.

I can genuinely only remember one game where it went appallingly biased, you generally find some of the coaches running the game would just try and maintain a scoreline more than anything else.

You will regularly have referees at 16s but 13s/14s wont as theyre bottom of the pile.

sydthebeat wrote: »

there are a limited amount of available referees on any given day, and ive no idea what the numbers are like over in the sligo side of connacht, but the way it works in our area is that all games are sent to the referee coordinator to provide refs. It usually works on priority from AIL downwards so the last to be provided with a ref would be U13s for example

If its a case where a referee isnt allocated, then in the first instance the travelling team are contacted to see if they can bring a branch or community referee. If they cannot then its the responsibility of the home team to appoint an 'affiliate' referee. An affiliate referee should not be a coach of the team that are playing. If no affiliate referee available with the home team, the away team can then provide one.

anyone can become an affiliate referee by:
1. completing the online WR law module
2. completing the online concussion awareness programme
3. sitting a 2 1/2 hour course

my experience with affiliate referees is that some of them are quite good in that they study the game and the laws and in a lot of cases have played the game before so understand the basics of the contact area. But at the end of the day they are still volunteers who were usually only roped on the day. They are not refs who referee week in week out, and that should be understood by the supporters.

It does work AIL down and as you go up games can only really be officiated by referees at a certain level. Referees are divided into levels based on ability. Levels 1 to 4 and j1 games must have a level 4 ref doing the game so if there is a change in a level 4 game then there may be multiple changes to appointments.

Affiliates will vary hugely as they don't attend ref meetings and it totally varies on what they do to train up even more so than members who attend ref meetings

Zzippy wrote: »

Do the GAA pay refs that much? I used to ref underage GAA (a long time ago admittedly) and it was handy pocket money, 10-15 quid a game for a student was nice beer money when that would get you a good few pints, but can't imagine they get 100 euro a game now. I didn't drive back then but the money was there to cover costs such as driving to/from the game etc.

Do rugby refs not get paid something?

Travel expenses is all we get.

Taking the OP at face value, he is right in a major aspect.

Anyone who can not ref the correct entry to a ruck should not be on the pitch.
I'm sorry but it is about player safety.

And yes, I would rather see a game called off than risk my son in that manner.
One catastrophic neck injury, in the family, is enough thank you very much

Zzippy

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Travel expenses is all we get.

Vouched expenses or a flat fee per game?

When I reffed GAA I would often be doing 2-3 games a week so for a student it was a nice bit of pocket money. At the time it varied from £8 for u-10 up to £16 for an u-16 game. No idea what it is now. If I hadn't moved away I would probably have kept it up and moved up to senior games as I got older. Offering a few quid for a game might be a way to get student-age guys and girls into reffing underage games - get enough of them into the system and some of them will stick at it.

Two quid per player per week towards a ref equals 50/60 quid which would make it worthwhile for a lot of people...

brocbrocach

GAA teams (at junior level anyway, dunno about higher standard) give €20 per team. So the ref gets €40 for each match. It's not a fortune but might make it more likely to get a decent ref to do 2 or 3 matches on a weekend etc. Supposedly ref numbers went way up when the recession hit, probably a combination of people having more time on their hands and people looking to top up with a few quid extra.
It's very small money per person if players are at all committed.
Rugby refereeing, though players are more respectful, has a bit more to it than GAA i'd say. Responsibility for injuries is more serious and rules are more complicated. You also don't have the vast pool of former players GAA has in non-traditional rugby counties.

Zzippy

brocbrocach wrote: »

GAA teams (at junior level anyway, dunno about higher standard) give €20 per team. So the ref gets €40 for each match. It's not a fortune but might make it more likely to get a decent ref to do 2 or 3 matches on a weekend etc. Supposedly ref numbers went way up when the recession hit, probably a combination of people having more time on their hands and people looking to top up with a few quid extra.
It's very small money per person if players are at all committed.
Rugby refereeing, though players are more respectful, has a bit more to it than GAA i'd say. Responsibility for injuries is more serious and rules are more complicated. You also don't have the vast pool of former players GAA has in non-traditional rugby counties.

All the more reason to pay them something...

brocbrocach

Zzippy wrote: »

All the more reason to pay them something...

Yep

The Lost Sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Taking the OP at face value, he is right in a major aspect.

Anyone who can not ref the correct entry to a ruck should not be on the pitch.
I'm sorry but it is about player safety.

And yes, I would rather see a game called off than risk my son in that manner.
One catastrophic neck injury, in the family, is enough thank you very much

Not really. A ref can learn and if they miss some things then they get training and learn.

Zzippy wrote: »

Vouched expenses or a flat fee per game?

When I reffed GAA I would often be doing 2-3 games a week so for a student it was a nice bit of pocket money. At the time it varied from £8 for u-10 up to £16 for an u-16 game. No idea what it is now. If I hadn't moved away I would probably have kept it up and moved up to senior games as I got older. Offering a few quid for a game might be a way to get student-age guys and girls into reffing underage games - get enough of them into the system and some of them will stick at it.

Two quid per player per week towards a ref equals 50/60 quid which would make it worthwhile for a lot of people...

Vouched expenses. I don't think money necessarily is way to get more people doing games.

brocbrocach wrote: »

GAA teams (at junior level anyway, dunno about higher standard) give €20 per team. So the ref gets €40 for each match. It's not a fortune but might make it more likely to get a decent ref to do 2 or 3 matches on a weekend etc. Supposedly ref numbers went way up when the recession hit, probably a combination of people having more time on their hands and people looking to top up with a few quid extra.
It's very small money per person if players are at all committed.
Rugby refereeing, though players are more respectful, has a bit more to it than GAA i'd say. Responsibility for injuries is more serious and rules are more complicated. You also don't have the vast pool of former players GAA has in non-traditional rugby counties.

Depends on the province and area but there is plenty of refs who will do 2 games plus a weekend.
Rugby refereeing is appointed provincially so its not a worry about people not from an area refereeing though most clubs will have some officials and there is always people not affiliated to any club/school who ref.