Afterschool incident.

edger

Hi all.Ill start with the problem I have.My three children come back from school ,on the bus, to a creche that runs an afterschool service.They have been going to this facility from they were babies.So, the problem is that my 7 year old boy hit another boy a punch in the mouth yesterday, breaking his bottom front tooth.Now, my wife and I have said we will pay for the tooth to be fixed and my son will be punished accordingly.However the more I think about this the more I am wondering was the creche not to blame also?Was the supervision up to standard? Should I question this further or should I just cut my losses and say nothing.I know it was my son who did the damage but I know they had been wrestling previous to this incident.Should they not have been separated or something? Sorry for the long winded story but any advice would be great full. Thanks.

Moonbeam

I would talk to the creche,they have insurance to cover these matters and you should not have to.

ted1

No the crèche isn't to blame.
Unless the put the kids in a straight jacket they can't prevent such incidents.

Was it the other kids adults teeth? If it's still his baby teeth. I wouldn't Soend more than 50 euro, as an extraction would be best

beechwood55

What is the supervision on the bus? How many adults are there? Are the children sitting down in seats with properly fitting seatbelts?
If the children are wrestling and liable to hit each other then yes I would be questioning the supervision.

In terms of paying for the other child's tooth then yes you need to do that. And I would not be saying the amount - do the decent thing and let the other child's parents come to you with the bill for treatment.

edger

ted1 wrote: »

No the crèche isn't to blame.
Unless the put the kids in a straight jacket they can't prevent such incidents.

Was it the other kids adults teeth? If it's still his baby teeth. I wouldn't Soend more than 50 euro, as an extraction would be best

Unfortunately,it was the child's adult tooth.I understand that you can't physically restrain the children.On viewing the footage back on the cctv today it does show them wrestling and the other child kicking mine a couple of times and enevitably the punch from my child.They were seemly told to stop wrestling 5 times but didn't.I am under no illusion here that my child was not to blame I just feel that it could of been handled differently.If maybe they had of been separated earlier this could of been avoided.Who knows how much this tooth is going to cost to get fixed.The fact that's it's an adult tooth means it will have to be fixed on an ongoing basis for the rest of the child's growing days.I don't have the money to foot that bill!

Mary63

The creches insurance should cover the cost.Thats what insurance is paid for so just ask them to make a claim for a refund of the money you pay out.

beechwood55

edger wrote: »

Unfortunately,it was the child's adult tooth.I understand that you can't physically restrain the children.On viewing the footage back on the cctv today it does show them wrestling and the other child kicking mine a couple of times and enevitably the punch from my child.They were seemly told to stop wrestling 5 times but didn't.I am under no illusion here that my child was not to blame I just feel that it could of been handled differently.If maybe they had of been separated earlier this could of been avoided.Who knows how much this tooth is going to cost to get fixed.The fact that's it's an adult tooth means it will have to be fixed on an ongoing basis for the rest of the child's growing days.I don't have the money to foot that bill!

Again what was the supervision on the bus? Please tell us it is more than just the driver.

byhookorbycrook

Why were they not sitting down wearing seat belts?Both boys may have been "wrestling" but if your child was the cause of the tooth being broken, then it's his fault!

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Why were they not sitting down wearing seat belts?Both boys may have been "wrestling" but if your child was the cause of the tooth being broken, then it's his fault!

maybe he was fending off an attack (which seems in keeping with cctv evidence).
I dunno if you can apportion blame to children when adults just let them at it.
Maybe it'll come down to loco parentis.... (especially if it's just a driver!). Did they act reasonably as an adult would (whilst driving a vehicle).
Dunno, maybe insurance will pay out without quibble!

neonsofa

beechwood55 wrote: »

Again what was the supervision on the bus? Please tell us it is more than just the driver.

Did it not happen at the actual after school facility? From my reading of the op the bus was just mentioned as to how they got to the facility after school. Maybe I'm wrong.

xabi

beechwood55 wrote: »

Again what was the supervision on the bus? Please tell us it is more than just the driver.

He didn't say it happened on the bus, read it again. I wouldn't be paying anything, takes two to tango, your son was the one that did damage but it could have been the other way around. If it was unprovoked that's a different matter.

Walter2016

Mary63 wrote: »

The creches insurance should cover the cost.Thats what insurance is paid for so just ask them to make a claim for a refund of the money you pay out.

And that's why insurance is so expensive because no-one wants to accept responsibility and want someone else to pay.

At least the op is man enough to mostly accept responsibility.

As for preventing it - if the creche staff forcibly moved them apart they'd be accused of assault by someone.

Kids will be kids. Stuff happens. Kids will learn what can't be done. Sometimes something has to happen for the kids to realise how wrong it can be.


Extraction won't be an option - probably capping.

Btw - something similar happened to me over 40 years ago! The other kid's parents paid for the dental work, I still remember the pain of the dentist. I'm still friends with the fecker too

peteb2

Not unless they have personal accident cover for each child which I would doubt they do. For public liability to operate the crèche would have to be negligent in their actions.

Insurance is paid to protect the creches liability. Not to cover others

evolving_doors

xabi wrote: »

He didn't say it happened on the bus, read it again. I wouldn't be paying anything, takes two to tango, your son was the one that did damage but it could have been the other way around. If it was unprovoked that's a different matter.

But we're talking about kids not adults. I would imagine that it would be the same on a school tour if two students we're going at it, the actions (or inactions) of a teacher would be looked at. I don't think it's fair to say it was one off horse play, especially if..

They were seemly told to stop wrestling 5 times but didn't.

If the incident had not happened the evidence is there to support the claim that they would have been told a 6th time to stop... and then a 7th time.. and so on!
They were allowed to continue until an injury occurred.

At age 7 I don't think any physical altercations are acceptable (kicking and punching seems extreme for kids that age!). And then to be allowed to continue.

Anyhow, maybe the best thing is to get legal advice OP. Footing the bill for the rest of the other kid's development into adulthood could be pretty pricey. There should be an incident report from the creche. Ask for a copy ASAP before memories lapse.

byhookorbycrook

They were told to stop, yet continued, what exactly was supposed to happen to stop them- physical intervention ?

cruizer101

Op I wouldn't necessarily say you are liable, as others have said it takes two to tango. Who started the fight, did either try to stop and walk away. I would also wonder about condition of tooth before, seems strange for a 7 year old to punch out someone else's tooth. Was it definitely the punch did the damage, rough and tumble of a fight the other boy could have knocked it of something himself.

Mary63

Yes, physical intervention byhookorbycrook, whoever is in charge is in loco parentis and parents would step in and physically separate two seven years olds punching and kicking each other.It was a fairly hefty kick from what must be a big seven year old to break an adult tooth.That behaviour could also be very distracting to the driver of the bus and he was responsible for transporting all those after school children.The purpose of the other adults on the bus is to supervise and yes to physically separate those children so they can't hit each other.

If it was my chid I would definitely be looking for alternative after school care.

The creche has to carry insurance to cover instances like this, the cost will be built into the service you pay for.

byhookorbycrook

Physical restraining is a minefield. The person involved would have to be trained in manual handling and even then is a particularly grey area . I am still trying to figure out from thx op if this was a crèche bus and who exactly was supervising if so ?

neonsofa

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Physical restraining is a minefield. The person involved would have to be trained in manual handling and even then is a particularly grey area . I am still trying to figure out from thx op if this was a crèche bus and who exactly was supervising if so ?

I don't think it happened on the bus, op just said they get a bus to the after school facility. I think it happened at the after school facility.

lawred2

Walter2016 wrote: »

And that's why insurance is so expensive because no-one wants to accept responsibility and want someone else to pay.

At least the op is man enough to mostly accept responsibility.

As for preventing it - if the creche staff forcibly moved them apart they'd be accused of assault by someone.

Kids will be kids. Stuff happens. Kids will learn what can't be done. Sometimes something has to happen for the kids to realise how wrong it can be.


Extraction won't be an option - probably capping.

Btw - something similar happened to me over 40 years ago! The other kid's parents paid for the dental work, I still remember the pain of the dentist. I'm still friends with the fecker too

Manning up? Seriously.

This in exactly what public liability insurance is for. The creche should not be passing off responsibility on the children and ultimately the children's parents. They are paid a fee for supervision.

I have my concerns about creches offering after school care anyway but that's a separate debate.

Avatar MIA

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

They were told to stop, yet continued, what exactly was supposed to happen to stop them- physical intervention ?

And then get sued for physical assault themselves.

Mary63

I don't think the OP is responsible for what happened in any way.He was at work and he is paying this creche to take care of his children, that means preventing physical fighting with other clients of the paid service.

If this happened in the schoolyard the schools insurance would pay for it.Why is a creche any different.

No one is going to accuse a childcare professional of assault off they do their duty to protect children in their care.Thats just nonsense, do you mean to tell me trained childcare staff just request children seven times to stop taking chunks out of each other and when ignored just let the fighting go on.I wouldn't let any child of mine go to an after school facility if I thought this was the case.

Yes, on re reading it does appear that this didn't happen on the bus but its not totally clear.

Mary63

I don't think the OP is responsible for what happened in any way.He was at work and he is paying this creche to take care of his children, that means preventing physical fighting with other clients of the paid service.

If this happened in the schoolyard the schools insurance would pay for it.Why is a creche any different.

No one is going to accuse a childcare professional of assault off they do their duty to protect children in their care.Thats just nonsense, do you mean to tell me trained childcare staff just request children seven times to stop taking chunks out of each other and when ignored just let the fighting go on.I wouldn't let any child of mine go to an after school facility if I thought this was the case.

Yes, on re reading it does appear that this didn't happen on the bus but its not totally clear.

Avatar MIA

Mary63 wrote: »

No one is going to accuse a childcare professional of assault off they do their duty to protect children in their care.Thats just nonsense, do you mean to tell me trained childcare staff just request children seven times to stop taking chunks out of each other and when ignored just let the fighting go on.I wouldn't let any child of mine go to an after school facility if I thought this was the case.

Ask your primary school teacher what he/she would do if a fight breaks out in a school yard. Do they physically intervene? Some will, most wont as they are not trained to be referees.

afkasurfjunkie

I imagine this thread would have taken a very different tangent had the parent of the child whose tooth was knocked out posted about covering the cost of the damage.

byhookorbycrook

I am a primary teacher and I work in a mainstream school where, of course, we have children with SEN. Even with a manual handling course and the backing of parents and the BOM, physically intervening is extremely dodgy, legally wise.That said, in 99.9% of cases, with good supervision it is not needed.

If this wresting took place on the creche premises itself, what supervision was in place?

Sleeper12

Here's the deal. Creche is responsible for your child and all the other children in the creche. This happened while the creche was responsible for all of these kids. You are paying for the creche to look after your children. I think you would be crazy to pay a penny.
You also mentioned that the other kid kicked your kid first. It's a case of boy's will be boys. I'm not one for claims or passing the buck but both kids were fighting. It's the problem for the creche

FortySeven

I don't see how the creche can be responsible for your son throwing a punch. These things happen. Pay for the tooth and make sure he knows it is not acceptable behavior and leave it at that.

Sometimes in life things can be put down to personal responsibility.

(Maybe get him some boxing lessons, with a punch that breaks teeth he could be the next Barry mcguigan.)

kevinhorgan

one thing you might consider following up on is, inquiring if the child had been covered by insurance via the primary school with Allianz, the cover is either school cover only or if a slightly premium was paid , he would have 24hr cover, incl.dental cover