Antique shotgun, advice needed

novaboy80

Hi there, I recently discovered an old shotgun which belonged to my late father, I had not seen this gun since I was a child, over 30 years ago, the shotgun, I imagine, is unlicensed, I went to my local garda station for advice as what to do with it, I was told to take it to a gun dealer to dispose of it and they would give me a letter stating that it was made safe and I should give this letter to the guards, it would cost me €20.00.
Well here's my conundrum, I found a partial brand name on the gun and done some research online, it would appear that the shotgun may be worth quiet a few euros as it's an antique at this stage, the partial name is "Regient St. London". . . Apparently some of the best made guns in the world came out of Regient St.
One barrel has been damaged which would take value away buy from what I've heard online the gun could be worth anything from €800.00 up to 5 figures, depending on many variables.
What advice can you give me, I am due to meet gun dealer next week because I want to stay all legal but I'm worried I could be taken for a mug and would end up giving away a valuable possession.
I will post some photos here.
Thanks in advance.

Grizzly 45

OTOH you could also apply for a liscense for it too.Something the AGS could have told you as well.Or get it deactivated and make it a wall hanger.
When you say "damaged" what is exactly damaged on the barrel.If you can get us some pics it would be a great help too.:) "Regent street" doesn't say much,until we can find a name of the maker of the gun.
But first thing,would be to drop it into a local dealer to assure legality and that you aren't open to prosecution for possesion of an unliscensed firearm.

novaboy80

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

OTOH you could also apply for a liscense for it too.Something the AGS could have told you as well.Or get it deactivated and make it a wall hanger.
When you say "damaged" what is exactly damaged on the barrel.If you can get us some pics it would be a great help too.:) "Regent street" doesn't say much,until we can find a name of the maker of the gun.
But first thing,would be to drop it into a local dealer to assure legality and that you aren't open to prosecution for possesion of an unliscensed firearm.

Edit.

Photos removed, thanks everyone for the help

gunny123

novaboy80 wrote: »

Hi there, I recently discovered an old shotgun which belonged to my late father, I had not seen this gun since I was a child, over 30 years ago, the shotgun, I imagine, is unlicensed, I went to my local garda station for advice as what to do with it, I was told to take it to a gun dealer to dispose of it and they would give me a letter stating that it was made safe and I should give this letter to the guards, it would cost me €20.00.
Well here's my conundrum, I found a partial brand name on the gun and done some research online, it would appear that the shotgun may be worth quiet a few euros as it's an antique at this stage, the partial name is "Regient St. London". . . Apparently some of the best made guns in the world came out of Regient St.
One barrel has been damaged which would take value away buy from what I've heard online the gun could be worth anything from €800.00 up to 5 figures, depending on many variables.
What advice can you give me, I am due to meet gun dealer next week because I want to stay all legal but I'm worried I could be taken for a mug and would end up giving away a valuable possession.
I will post some photos here.
Thanks in advance.

I am into old guns and was lucky enough to be given an old irish made sidelock shotgun recently. Just because it is old doesn't mean it is valuable. It all depends on the maker and condition.

Have you anymore details apart from regent street ? Regent street is a main shopping street in london, years ago department stores like army and navy csl (now house of fraser), gamages, abercrombie and fitch, etc, all sold guns and they are usually marked with their names rather than the name of the maker.

novaboy80

Thanks, I posted a link to some photos of the gun in my last reply, have you viewed them?
The only other info. I can add is that I've been told that the gun is damascus steel and would have used black powder, today's powder would likely destroy the barrels.

gunny123

novaboy80 wrote: »

Thanks, I posted a link to some photos of the gun in my last reply, have you viewed them?
The only other info. I can add is that I've been told that the gun is damascus steel and would have used black powder, today's powder would likely destroy the barrels.

Blind as a bat, i see them now. With that patch brazed into the barrel its shooting days are done i reckon. Its also off the face and it looks like there is severe rust coming from under the top rib. Looking at the wood quality and the stock oval together with the engraving, i would think it was a slightly higher than average boxlock in its day. If a buyer wanted something higher quality, they would step up to a sidelock.

I have a similar gun thats been sleeved and reproofed, i was able to buy it for 600 euros or there abouts and its a shooter. You could get yours shooting again, but it would mean having the barrels sleeved or replaced, the action tightened, the damage to the stock repaired and it would cost multiples of what the gun is ever going to be worth.

Have it deactivated, and hang it on the wall as a conversation piece.

P.s Have you tried the old trick of putting a piece of paper over the name on the rib and rubbing it with a pencil ? Curious as to the makers name.

Grizzly 45

Ok, from the pics ,A Damascus barrelled boxlock with a rather alarming looking repair on the barrel!:p illegileble maker apart from[ York??] HOUSE,Regent st.
Some "hacksaw" work to the fore end wood .:(
The proof marks look like London proof marks around late 19th century ???[Sure Tac or someone will be better up on this than me]Choked gun as well

Hate to say it,but I doubt it is worth thousands..It looks to me like a a deluxe working man's gun.Reckon the barrel repair was due to either corrosion or a burst,it MIGHT be possible to sleeve it,but I cant see anything that says it's nitro proof on the stamps.IOW you cant safely use modern cartridges in it,it can fire black powder cartridges only. So if it is sleeved it would have to be reprooved to make it safe to shoot.That means shipping it out to Birmingham proof house in the UK and getting it proof stamped again.Which all might be a tad bit costly for a gun that mightn't be worth a lot.

FWIW,If you want to hold onto it for sentimental reasons,I'd get it deactivated and your local Superintendant will give you a permit to keep it for free,and have a nice wall hanger and conversation piece.

tac foley

'kay.

London Proof of crown over CP = post 1925 RoP definitive proof mark. I can't see a crown over NP, which is the nitro proof mark, so I'd agree that this is/was a slightly superior working gun with both barrels choked. Cheaper guns of that era WERE BP only, as the quality of steel required was somewhat less than that used for a nitro arm. Lack of any obvious BP proof is a worry, though, unless there are stamps on the water table - the flat bit of the action where the barrels close.

13 = 12g

London crown over V = View mark by Proof House inspector.

The fancy patterns in the barrels MAY be twist or stub-twist welded barrels, so-called Damascus. But with all the more obvious problems I would not fire it under any circumstances.

Getting it made presentable/shootable would be a piece of cake for a well-known and highly respected expert like Mr Sluds, but would cost a small fortune, maybe even a moderately large fortune, depending on your finances.

The advice to get it de-activated and to hang it on the wall, under a good coating of Renaissance Wax, is good.

I'd take it.

tac

PS - Gamages was in High Holborn, and the Army & Navy Stores was in Great Victoria Street. I'm still racking what's left of my brains for a store in Regent Street that might match up with the address on the gun, but the comment that many guns were marked for the seller and not the maker is absolutely correct. Only foreign brands of extreme repute, like Mauser, J P Sauer, Merkel et al sold products under their own name from UK dealers. My 1912 Model B Mauser hunting rifle was bought in the Army & Navy Stores in early 1913.

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

PS - Gamages was in High Holborn, and the Army & Navy Stores was in Great Victoria Street. I'm still racking what's left of my brains for a store in Regent Street that might match up with the address on the gun, but the comment that many guns were marked for the seller and not the maker is absolutely correct. Only foreign brands of extreme repute, like Mauser, J P Sauer, Merkel et al sold products under their own name from UK dealers. My 1912 Model B Mauser hunting rifle was bought in the Army & Navy Stores in early 1913.

Liberty's ? Anyway it could be any one of hundreds of shops, gun dealers, gunsmiths , iron mongers etc etc.

tac foley

Not in Regent Street it couldn't.

With a third floor one bedroom 'apartment' currently on the market for £914,000 leasehold, it was never a cheap locale to set up a business.

Way back when, it was contemporarily costy.

tac

novaboy80

tac foley wrote: »

'kay.

I'm still racking what's left of my brains for a store in Regent Street that might match up with the address on the gun

"W.J. Jefferey & Co, 9 Golden Square, Regent Street, London" ???

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a-20-bore-side-by-side-box-lock-shotgun-by-w.j.-j-647-c-919401dbeb

gunny123

if you rub a piece of chalk onto the name and then wipe the excess off, the name should be more readable.

Edit.

Did you get that name off the rib of your gun ? Jeffrey made some fabulous guns, more of a rifle maker i would have thought, but i would guess your gun was made in the trade in Birmingham and simply named Jeffrey, then retailed by them in london.

tac foley

I read the rib engraving as XXX HOUSE or maybe even ROUSE. No 'Jeffrey' or 'Square' there.

tac

novaboy80

gunny123 wrote: »

if you rub a piece of chalk onto the name and then wipe the excess off, the name should be more readable.

Edit.

Did you get that name off the rib of your gun ? Jeffrey made some fabulous guns, more of a rifle maker i would have thought, but i would guess your gun was made in the trade in Birmingham and simply named Jeffrey, then retailed by them in london.

No, i got the name by doing a lot of googling ha, i will try the chalk trick, tried a pencil and paper but got nothing, not even the words that are visible came through.

Tiercel Dave

From a quick Google...........
https://www.gunsamerica.com/909148660/York-House-Regent-St-London-28-gauge-HAMMER-GUN-RARE-FIN.htm

novaboy80

The chalk brought up nothing either, now i'm lost as what to do next, besides just holding onto it, made safe and legal first, naturally.

If it was as clean as the gun in the photo in the post above then i'd be smiling, but even the gun in that post, so it came out of Regent ST. but still no gunsmiths name on it?

tac foley

Gotcha!!!! Thanks Dave!!!!

See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_%26_Navy_Stores_%28United_Kingdom%29

Now owned by the House of Fraser, as suggested earlier in this thread.

"Junior Army and Navy Stores " listed at York House 29 Regent St, London.

Registration number:

Company name: Junior Army & Navy Stores Ltd
Dates in business: ????

Type of business: co-operative society

Type of company: Limited liability company

Locations:
London, England
Management of company

Company history

The Junior Army & Navy Stores Ltd was established in 1879 to.... .

Still can't find any reference to York House, although that is plainly what it is.

tac

novaboy80

tac foley wrote: »

Gotcha!!!! Thanks Dave!!!!

See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_%26_Navy_Stores_%28United_Kingdom%29

Now owned by the House of Fraser, as suggested earlier in this thread.

"Junior Army and Navy Stores " listed at York House 29 Regent St, London.

Registration number:

Company name: Junior Army & Navy Stores Ltd
Dates in business: ????

Type of business: co-operative society

Type of company: Limited liability company

Locations:
London, England
Management of company

Company history

The Junior Army & Navy Stores Ltd was established in 1879 to.... .

Still can't find any reference to York House, although that is plainly what it is.

tac

So this shotgun came from a company called The Junior Army & Navy Stores Ltd. ? Is that pretty much a donedeal then ?

tac foley

No, it 99% probably came from the Army & Navy Stores full stop. The term ;junior' was used to distinguish the lesser branches of the main business in Victoria Street acquired over the years of business by other business takeovers, as we would call it these days.

Shame it's a wreck, but it's what it is, and if it has been part of the family it deserves to remain in it, even if it is hanging on the wall.

tac

novaboy80

tac foley wrote: »

No, it 99% probably came from the Army & Navy Stores full stop. The term ;junior' was used to distinguish the lesser branches of the main business in Victoria Street acquired over the years of business by other business takeovers, as we would call it these days.

Shame it's a wreck, but it's what it is, and if it has been part of the family it deserves to remain in it, even if it is hanging on the wall.

tac

Thanks, if the gun was in good to very good condition, what do you think it would have been worth?

gunny123

Anyone remember Cahills gunshop in naas ? I was in there many years ago buying cartridges and asked for a look around the gunroom. They used to have a "gun of the month" for sale on a beam across the ceiling. The gun that day was a very nice army and navy side by side. I fell in love with it, but being young and broke i couldn't afford it straight away, as soon as i had saved up enough punts i was back, but of course the gun had been sold by then.

It was a very nice gun, nice wood, lovely bluing, tasteful engraving and it made army and navy stick in my mind. They were retailers and probably bought guns from the trade (someone mentioned webley and scott to me before). I know they also retailed webley revolvers, as officers around ww1 had to buy their own kit.

tac foley

I can't offer you any kind of meaningful estimation since you and I live in different countries.

Here in UK, a BP-only shotgun of that era, from a utility maker rather than a bespoke gunmaker [and we STILL don't know who actually made the gun, and although London proofed implies that it was London-made, even that is not set in stone] would not fetch more than around £500 or so unless made by one of the prestigious London gunmakers. It would have to look more or less like new to get any higher, and remember that these guns were made to use, and use a LOT.

BP shotguns are novelties these days, but hammer guns are becoming more popular - even BP-era guns of good makes.

tac

gunny123

novaboy80 wrote: »

Thanks, if the gun was in good to very good condition, what do you think it would have been worth?

Novaboy, sadly not that much, maybe a thousand euros but i think less. I have basically the same gun, spotless barrels, tight action, very nice wood and i paid substancially less than a thousand euros for it.

A friend who is a gun dealer and a fan of old guns like myself says he cannot give side by sides away, the older generation don't change their guns so much and young people aren't interested in them. It is a pity as they are (imho) the best rough shooting game gun, ideal for when you carry it a lot and shoot little.

novaboy80

Thank you all for your help, much appreciated!

tac foley

You are welcome.

Meanwhile, enjoy this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKPIP1ATZDQ

tac

FISMA.

novaboy80 wrote: »

Hi there, I recently discovered an old shotgun which belonged to my late father...

Never deactivate a firearm.

If the firearm has any historical family significance, licence it.

If there is no lineage, sell it.

If it is not worth much, give it to someone. Make someone's Christmas...

No matter what, never deactivate a firearm.

Lastly, did I mention that you should never deactivate a firearm?

Bad_alibi

FISMA. wrote: »

Never deactivate a firearm.

If the firearm has any historical family significance, licence it.

If there is no lineage, sell it.

If it is not worth much, give it to someone. Make someone's Christmas...

No matter what, never deactivate a firearm.

Lastly, did I mention that you should never deactivate a firearm?

If you seen half the **** in circulation or propping closed farm shed doors I'd say cut them in tiny pieces for fear someone would attempt to fire them. I like to refer to them as face grenades.

Grizzly 45

I'd have to sadly agree with Bad Alibi.Unless there is some serious historical significance to the gun,alot of these have reached very much end of natural life and have fallen to a guns primary enemy,rust and neglect[Politicians being the second main enemy of firearms.]

gunny123

It would be no loss to have it deactivated, its nothing special, and there are probably hundreds of similar guns in good condition around the country that could be bought for small money.

tac foley

gunny123 wrote: »

It would be no loss to have it deactivated, its nothing special, and there are probably hundreds of similar guns in good condition around the country that could be bought for small money.

You might say that, but another gun will not have had the father's hands on it.

I have everything my dad left me - a scriber and a little drill holder. They are worth nothing at all, literally. Except that my dad used them every day.

tac

Bad_alibi

With the new EU decommission criteria it's not going to be as easy to get a firearm decommissioned anymore.

tac foley

Sir, it has been said before, about other matters, but the EU's 'new rules' are not yet law, anywhere.

Assuming future events and their inevitability is not law.

tac

gunny123

Bad_alibi wrote: »

With the new EU decommission criteria it's not going to be as easy to get a firearm decommissioned anymore.

All the more reason to get it done as quickly as possible, the law when it comes will have a start date. To the best of my knowledge there is no standard of deactivation in ireland. I did a couple of guns over the years and the guards were satisfied with them.

Grizzly 45

Just use the current Uk deact specs..
[IE Drill or slit both barrells at least 6ins under the fore end at least a quarter of the barrel diameter including the chambers,or arc weld steel plugs into the chamber Arc weld the firing pin channels ,and its pretty much INOP
This is a major block of confusion in the EU rules at the moment,and the new specs aren't much different from this,as well as the fact no one is authorised ,yet by law to perform deact work in Ireland to EU specs,and the fact is that the new EU directive will suppoosedly recognise national deactivation standards ,provided they reach a certain criteria..As we dont have any deact standards here in law,old spec UK or new UK deact spec is good.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just use the current Uk deact specs..
[IE Drill or slit both barrells at least 6ins under the fore end at least a quarter of the barrel diameter including the chambers,or arc weld steel plugs into the chamber Arc weld the firing pin channels ,and its pretty much INOP
This is a major block of confusion in the EU rules at the moment,and the new specs aren't much different from this,as well as the fact no one is authorised ,yet by law to perform deact work in Ireland to EU specs,and the fact is that the new EU directive will suppoosedly recognise national deactivation standards ,provided they reach a certain criteria..As we dont have any deact standards here in law,old spec UK or new UK deact spec is good.

Thats pretty much what i did, along with welding up the firing pin holes.