75% of Dubliners satisfied with PT in their City

BonnieSituation

Mother of God; the delusion. I don't doubt the quality of the data. I just doubt the quality of the morons that were asked the questions. Or perhaps they were all on the Green line or Dart?

Page 18
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/docgener/studies/pdf/urban/survey2015_en.pdf

I was initially looking it up as I will be moving to Aalborg in Denmark next year for a masters programme and it was the survey were Aaborg has been referred to as "The Most Satisfied City in Denmark" (3rd in Europe after Oslo and Zurich).

But some of the stats on Dublin are eye-opening.

snickerpuss

Maybe some people are satisfied? To be honest if I was asked was I satisfied with transport in Dublin I'd say yes. That doesn't mean I don't think there are improvements to be made, new systems etc but day-to-day it works for me.

I get the bus every day from a main road. I have multiple buses going to the city centre to choose from. They are frequent. The bus lanes mean they get into the city quickly. Ditto in the evenings. I can use my Leap card on luas/DART/bus and top it up on my phone.

I met a friend from Cork last Saturday at Heuston, we got the Luas into the city and a bus out to a Christmas fair. Although it was the weekend the services were frequent and connections were easy. She was impressed at how handy it was to get around.

That's not to say it's perfect but it's definitely satisfactory for my own needs.

Atlantic Dawn

From my point of view if you own a car and your on the DART or LUAS line and it's going where you work you will be in or around the 100% thinking public transport is great. If I want to go 5 miles the opposite direction of where I work and don't own a car it results in a 1 hour journey, longer than it would take me to walk it.

BonnieSituation

snickerpuss wrote: »

Maybe some people are satisfied? To be honest if I was asked was I satisfied with transport in Dublin I'd say yes. That doesn't mean I don't think there are improvements to be made, new systems etc but day-to-day it works for me.

I get the bus every day from a main road. I have multiple buses going to the city centre to choose from. They are frequent. The bus lanes mean they get into the city quickly. Ditto in the evenings. I can use my Leap card on luas/DART/bus and top it up on my phone.

I met a friend from Cork last Saturday at Heuston, we got the Luas into the city and a bus out to a Christmas fair. Although it was the weekend the services were frequent and connections were easy. She was impressed at how handy it was to get around.

That's not to say it's perfect but it's definitely satisfactory for my own needs.

Of course SOME people are satisfied. But to see that 75% are satisfied was eye opening. I wouldn't be surprised if the 75% are satisfied because they don't have to wade through pinchpoints all over the city or have unopened train stations. Or in fact was it just Dublin City that was included in the survey where naturally connections are better.

devnull

A lot of people in Dublin think what they have is good because they don't know any better or how good a decent public transport system can be.

They also probably are happy with what is happening now or about to happen compared to five years ago, when lets face it, transport was worse than it now is.

AngryLips

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

From my point of view if you own a car and your on the DART or LUAS line and it's going where you work you will be in or around the 100% thinking public transport is great.

I agree with Snickerpuss. And actually, I think the best element of Dublin's public transport is the DB network - modern bright busses, RTPI and wifi. The changes introduced by network direct make the northside and southside feel like part of the same city and it's very easy to get almost anywhere with one change or less. That's even more so the case when you include Luas and Dart. It's still pants in comparison to Vienna or Copenhagen yes, but it's not bad.

snickerpuss

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Of course SOME people are satisfied. But to see that 75% are satisfied was eye opening. I wouldn't be surprised if the 75% are satisfied because they don't have to wade through pinchpoints all over the city or have unopened train stations. Or in fact was it just Dublin City that was included in the survey where naturally connections are better.

But if they are satisfied then they are satisfied. Maybe the other 25% are the ones without suitable routes/connections etc. I can imagine that if I lived in Swords I wouldn't be satisfied because there are tens of thousands relying on (one? two?) DB routes. It would be interesting to know where the survey took place certainly.

I wasn't trying to be contrary answering your question but I wanted to explain that although it has its problems it works for a lot of people. I can't think of anything I would change about my commute. The commutes which are suburb to city centre are probably handiest though.

devnull

To be honest though this service was carried out by the operators themselves in Ireland as advertised on their websites, so if you thought it would ****, you wouldn't see the services and therefore wouldn't check the website or take part in the survey.

But as I said DB in particular has improved recently, thanks to being pressured to modernise by the NTA and the NTA modernizing the service.

BTW - a lot of people in Swords don't use DB at all as they have something better.

magicbastarder

was there confirmation that the respondents use public transport before their response was included?

Bray Head

I was pretty surprised by this.

I found three western European capitals below Dublin - Lisbon, Brussels and Madrid. I have used public transport in all of them and they score better on everything: price, frequency, reliability, comfort and basic stuff like maps.

Maybe they are surveying a lot of people in the outer suburbs of these cities (where I have never been) where maybe PT isn't that great?

A while back I had a few days of meetings in Dublin. There were a lot of trips in the 1.5km to 2.5km space and we just walked because nothing else was reliable of frequent enough. Luas cross city will improve this, but only a bit.

schemingbohemia

Bray Head wrote: »

I was pretty surprised by this.

I found three western European capitals below Dublin - Lisbon, Brussels and Madrid. I have used public transport in all of them and they score better on everything: price, frequency, reliability, comfort and basic stuff like maps.

Maybe they are surveying a lot of people in the outer suburbs of these cities (where I have never been) where maybe PT isn't that great?

A while back I had a few days of meetings in Dublin. There were a lot of trips in the 1.5km to 2.5km space and we just walked because nothing else was reliable of frequent enough. Luas cross city will improve this, but only a bit.

Just wondering if you considered using Dublin Bikes for those short journeys? And if not, why not?

Bray Head

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Just wondering if you considered using Dublin Bikes for those short journeys? And if not, why not?

Personally I find them heavy and unpleasant to manouvre. For 2km or less  it's debatable whether they are an improvement when you factor in the time spent to find a station and also the risk that you won't be able to park at the other end. I'm a fast walker too.

Alun

Personally, for those kinds of distances, I'd walk anyway whether I was in Dublin or any other city for that matter.

testaccount123

Public transport in Dublin is fine.

dfx-

devnull wrote: »

A lot of people in Dublin think what they have is good because they don't know any better or how good a decent public transport system can be.

They also probably are happy with what is happening now or about to happen compared to five years ago, when lets face it, transport was worse than it now is.

Perhaps, people do know what they want and are actually just satisfied with what we have and don't need to rank their city against somewhere else all the time.

LeinsterDub

dfx- wrote: »

Perhaps, people do know what they want and are actually just satisfied with what we have and don't need to rank their city against somewhere else all the time.

To the starving a slice of bread is a meal

seamus

devnull wrote: »

A lot of people in Dublin think what they have is good because they don't know any better or how good a decent public transport system can be.

They also probably are happy with what is happening now or about to happen compared to five years ago, when lets face it, transport was worse than it now is.

A lot probably remember what passed for public transport in Dublin 15 years ago and compare it to then.
The Luas was a big factor in everything. It forced DB to up their game and start improving not just the routes and the frequency, but also the value-add stuff like travel cards and RTPI.

Anyone under 20 probably doesn't remember the days where getting a bus involved digging into the change jar to get the right fare, checking the timetable, working out how long it might take the bus to get from the terminus to your stop and then standing there for 20 minutes hoping that a bus would be along soon. And getting worried when there was no-one else at the stop, that you had just missed a bus.

Dyr

Was the survey limited to people who have to use public transport daily in Dublin?

I doubt it.

thomasj

I hardly call these surveys the most scientific. Any other day you could have surveyed 100 people who despise public transport in the city.

Hollister11

I get the DART every morning and evening. It's a 10 minutes walk to the stations from my house, and college. It's at worst a 20 minute journey.

I do think it's a very good service and it'd rarely late. Although it could do with being more frequent and upgrading from 8 to 10 carriages as it ca be mayhem at times.

plodder

Definition of city could be problematic also. It appears not to be "Greater Dublin" and if say restricted to the city council area, then it's a lot more likely that people would be satisfied with public transport. And it's very true that people who don't know any better are more likely to be happy with what they have got.

devnull

Hollister11 wrote: »

I get the DART every morning and evening. It's a 10 minutes walk to the stations from my house, and college. It's at worst a 20 minute journey.

I do think it's a very good service and it'd rarely late. Although it could do with being more frequent and upgrading from 8 to 10 carriages as it ca be mayhem at times.

That's the problem in Dublin, if you have the DART or LUAS great, but a lot of us are not so lucky and if you happen to use the first DART in the morning it's a game of pot luck if it is running, if it isn't, nobody will tell you, it simply won't arrive because the people to do that don't start work until 7am.

devnull

thomasj wrote: »

I hardly call these surveys the most scientific. Any other day you could have surveyed 100 people who despise public transport in the city.

The survey was carried out by the operators advertising it on the front page of their website, such a collection method would probably skew the data a certain amount in the PT operators favour, versus just random sampling.

murphaph

Personally I think Dublin's transport system tends to determine where people choose to live, so they accommodate the system and then it works for them more or less. A good system allows you to live anywhere however.

murphaph

seamus wrote: »

And getting worried when there was no-one else at the stop, that you had just missed a bus.

lol at this...I actually use this method every day. I drop my son off at the kindergarten and pelt it round the corner to the bus stop. If there's nobody there I just missed it and the next one will be there in 20 mins, so I walk on to the underground and take 2 trains instead of the direct bus to my office.

Ben D Bus

devnull wrote: »

A lot of people in Dublin think what they have is good because they don't know any better or how good a decent public transport system can be.

I'd imagine the population of Dublin is well travelled enough to have experienced the PT of many other cities. In face many of Dublins residents will have grown up elsewhere, so will have a very good knowledge of what public transport can be like.

While there are many problems with PT in Dublin, I think fleet upgrades, RTPI, Leap, cross-city services, Luas have all brought significant improvements. Personally, RTPI enormously improved my daily experience of Dublin Bus.

But sure, it still doesn't compare to the best available on the Continent. I don't think anyone would claim it does. There is a lot still to do.

Disclaimer: I work within the CIÉ group.

XPS_Zero

seamus wrote: »

A lot probably remember what passed for public transport in Dublin 15 years ago and compare it to then.
The Luas was a big factor in everything. It forced DB to up their game and start improving not just the routes and the frequency, but also the value-add stuff like travel cards and RTPI.

Anyone under 20 probably doesn't remember the days where getting a bus involved digging into the change jar to get the right fare, checking the timetable, working out how long it might take the bus to get from the terminus to your stop and then standing there for 20 minutes hoping that a bus would be along soon. And getting worried when there was no-one else at the stop, that you had just missed a bus.

The younger millennials born post 1995 say have no concept of how diabolical it used to be

•No Luas
•No real time for bus or rail
•No travel apps
•No wifi (IE literally said they didn't wanna do this as tech changes every few years.and sure they'd have to update it)
•No disability access whatever no kneeling wide door busses no lifts at dart stations
•6 carriage DARTs max at peak usually 4
•No smart cards
•Even in the post Luas pre Leap era tickets were not fully multimodal. The only place you could get a Luas-Bus-dart ticket was bizzarly Irish rail ticket offices and some staff didn't know how to make them
•Those lovely ICRs didn't exist there were these cold orange and black leaky monsters with broken doors
•Free Travel passes were on a cheap scrap of cardboard so fraud was rampant
•Smaller DART network with bigger gaps between trains

I agree most are probably comparing it to that against the improvement in their own personal journey

devnull

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The younger millennials born post 1995 say have no concept of how diabolical it used to be

•No Luas
•No real time for bus or rail
•No travel apps
•No wifi (IE literally said they didn't wanna do this as tech changes every few years.and sure they'd have to update it)
•No disability access whatever no kneeling wide door busses no lifts at dart stations
•6 carriage DARTs max at peak usually 4
•No smart cards
•Even in the post Luas pre Leap era tickets were not fully multimodal. The only place you could get a Luas-Bus-dart ticket was bizzarly Irish rail ticket offices and some staff didn't know how to make them
•Those lovely ICRs didn't exist there were these cold orange and black leaky monsters with broken doors
•Free Travel passes were on a cheap scrap of cardboard so fraud was rampant
•Smaller DART network with bigger gaps between trains

I agree most are probably comparing it to that against the improvement in their own personal journey

Most of that was the case before 2010, apart from LUAS.

XPS_Zero

devnull wrote: »

Most of that was the case before 2010, apart from LUAS.

Right but not all

I think people just don't appreciate how many good changes the Bertie govt (and Bruton govt in getting Luas ball rolling) made. That govts deregulation of banks overexposing us to a global crash is rightly castigated but that era had Transport 21 as part of a huge national development plan massive changes were made. Taxis is another area it used to be impossible to find one on s night out as there were so few of them

hardanro

Actually, what I saw in the last years was DB getting worse.
- At 8:00 in the morning, there are a lot more buses not stopping because they are two full. I have to walk 3.5Km to the next bus I have to catch 3 days out of 5. 2 years ago (living in the same house) I never saw a bus not stopping because being full. DB doesn't seem to have any intention to adjust their fleet to cater for the growing number of passenger.
- At 6PM, a bus that it's supposed to come every 20min (which in itself it's a bad frequency for every respecting city) - shows after 45-50 min every other day.
So 1h commuting transform to 3h most of the days because of Dublin Bus.
I don't consider Public transport in Dublin to be satisfying. I don't consider to be even acceptable. But the fact that 75% are satisfied with this bad service, means that we will not see improvements any time soon.

dublinman1990

The PT service in Dublin fine for what it is now but more work needs to be done to make it even better.

I would be extremely surprised for people that these surveys are the be all & end all of PT usage in Dublin. If these surveys were about future improvement of service in Dublin or other parts of the country then I'm all for it.

PT in Dublin CC is currently suffering from some problems that is related to the works for Luas CC with frequent traffic delays nearly every day of the week. It has a bit of break while it's coming up to Christmas but the thing is that they will come back in the new year until the project is over for another few months from now.

I'm happy using my Student Leap Card on the DART & the Bus for the cheaper fares for the past few years. I think the likes of me of paying expensive fares in cash are long gone now. I find it cheaper to travel on the DART on Leap Card now between Seapoint & Bray. It costs about €2.46 on the DART on Leap Card compared to paying €2.60 on the Bus from Stradbrook Road & Bray Station which is also on Leap Card.

Using the RTPI has also made things easier in finding out scheduled bus times via SMS. It makes things less stressful for me waiting for buses at the bus stop compared to years ago.

Bray Head

The DART is no better than it was 30 years ago when I started using it.

Same: comfort of carriages
Better: Leap, better access at some stations, RTPI
Worse: it is slower between Bray and Pearse

So on balance, no change.

Sam Russell

Bray Head wrote: »

The DART is no better than it was 30 years ago when I started using it.

Same: comfort of carriages
Better: Leap, better access at some stations, RTPI
Worse: it is slower between Bray and Pearse

So on balance, no change.

Why is it slower between Bray and Pearse?

Elemonator

I'd like some of what they are smoking.

Spanish Eyes

DB is great where I am TG. I can get Luas too, but the bus is handier for me, and quicker believe it or not, bus lane all the way in really.

Problem is the traffic in the city centre holding up buses. Mad. So while I'm happy with my own service, there are problems outside their control too.

Dyr

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

DB is great where I am TG. I can get Luas too, but the bus is handier for me, and quicker believe it or not, bus lane all the way in really.

Problem is the traffic in the city centre holding up buses. Mad. So while I'm happy with my own service, there are problems outside their control too.

You'll find DB tend to up their game when they have competition from another service

Ben D Bus

I've already posted my views but I should probably add that I don't think that 75% should be considered a spectacular result. I would think that 80% should be a pass and 85%+ a respectable figure. Over 90% would probably signify that the populace takes a quality PT system for granted. That's where we should be.

GreenFolder2

This is the problem though - There's no political demand for good public transport in Ireland, only more and more roads.

Like it or not, Ireland makes political and democratic choices to scatter the population as thinly as possible. That is a political decision. It's not accidental. People do not vote for parties that restrict planning permission, that propose denser housing in cities or that have proposed sane approaches to how we organise things.

The electorate likes : big one off houses in the countryside, motorways, a university and a hospital in every village and paying as little tax as humanly possible while getting maximum social welfare and world class social services.

They want gigabit broadband everywhere, but won't live in concentrated towns / villages making it impossible to provide. The water's polluted because there's no way of connecting sewage treatment to one-off-housing in scattered developments. They want a specific type of school of every citizen : catholic, slightly posher catholic, male, female, christian, non-christian, irish speaking, protestant, jewish, hindu, muslim etc but then go mad when that costs money and will not compromise.

Hospitals must be able to do full cardiac surgery in every small town.

That's basically what you're dealing with here. A completely unrealistic set of requirements that will never be satisfied.

We will never have decent public transport when nobody sees it as a priority and everyone's focused on living on a 3/4 acre site on the side of a road with easy access to a motorway.

When the oil runs out we are absolutely doomed.

ChikiChiki

How can anyone be satisfied. I'd estimate punctuality is running at about 20% on Irish Rail commuter routes despite their outlandish back slapping claims of over 95% punctuality.

Sick of the leaves on the track/poor rail conditions nonsense.

Cuddlesworth

ChikiChiki wrote: »

How can anyone be satisfied.

Depends on how the question was asked.

Are you satisfied with the variety of public transport options available to you?

Are you satisfied with the public transport available to you?