Late '13 Leaf from the UK - €6.9k landed

unkel

From a main Nissan dealer. Asking £5,690, so with a little bit off that car would land for about €6.9k with a cheap flight & ferry

That's a lot of cheap to run, nearly new car for your money

No mention of Flexi (leased battery), so presumably it doesn't. Any way to check apart needing the VIN or from ringing the dealer and hoping they are honest?

And someone tell me, do these still have the original (not so great) battery, or is this the improved version? Again how can I tell apart from needing the VIN?

Aim is to bring it in, have a little play with it myself for a few months and sell on for a modest profit or for at least what it cost me to bring it in. Surely it would easily sell here for €8k or am I delusional?

unkel

Just saw in a post from KCross that the v1.5 with the new much improved battery is from 2014

Hard to tell then with a UK car with a 63 plate as that means the car is registered between September '13 and March '14?

colm_mcm

https://www.gov.uk/get-vehicle-information-from-dvla

unkel

Thanks Colm:

Vehicle details
Vehicle make NISSAN Date of first registration 11 September 2013 Year of manufacture 2013 Cylinder capacity (cc) 0 cc CO₂Emissions 0 g/km Fuel type ELECTRICITY Export marker No Vehicle status Tax not due Vehicle colour WHITE Vehicle type approval M1 Wheelplan 2 AXLE RIGID BODY

Early 63 plate, v1 so

I stuck it in cartell.ie and it turns out it's a VISIA FLEX

Honestly do we need an Irish site to tell us that a UK car is compromised (battery not owned)? :rolleyes:

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Honestly do we need an Irish site to tell us that a UK car is compromised (battery not owned)? :rolleyes:

If they don't quote it (and some of them dont), you'll need to contact the dealer and ask.

Frustrating when they don't specify - although most of them these days do. Less so, when it comes to whether they are generation 1 or gen 1.5 2013's or whether the car has 6.6kW on-board charging or 3.3. In these latter cases, they often simply don't know even if you do contact them! There are visual indicators that can clarify this - so check out the photos supplied - or otherwise, tell them what these checks are - so that they can go out to the car and confirm back to you.

I've been keeping tabs on UK pricing on Leafs since I bought a few months back. Ironically, despite the sizeable shift in the exchange rate, I'm seeing a pattern where prices on 2nd hands seem to have gone up if anything. I guess there is more demand.

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

Frustrating when they don't specify - although most of them these days do. Less so, when it comes to whether they are generation 1 or gen 1.5 2013's or whether the car has 6.6kW on-board charging or 3.3. In these latter cases, they often simply don't know even if you do contact them!

Especially when it is a main Nissan dealer!

godtabh

unkel wrote: »

From a main Nissan dealer. Asking £5,690, so with a little bit off that car would land for about €6.9k with a cheap flight & ferry

That's a lot of cheap to run, nearly new car for your money

No mention of Flexi (leased battery), so presumably it doesn't. Any way to check apart needing the VIN or from ringing the dealer and hoping they are honest?

And someone tell me, do these still have the original (not so great) battery, or is this the improved version? Again how can I tell apart from needing the VIN?

Aim is to bring it in, have a little play with it myself for a few months and sell on for a modest profit or for at least what it cost me to bring it in. Surely it would easily sell here for €8k or am I delusional?

Both my wife and I will be changing jobs were we will be commuting via the luas. Going to be getting rid of at least one car but if I could get something like this at that price I'd get rid of the two of them. Must do some proper research on it

n97 mini

If it's too good to be true it's Flex. You should know that by now!

You seem to be on a never ending conquest for the ultimate bargain... Just buy one! You won't regret it.

unkel

I should have guessed, but it was from a main Nissan dealer. My dealings with main Nissan dealers in this country have been good, the people were honest and professional. Surprised to see that wasn't the case in the UK

And yes, I'm always looking for a bargain. I'm never desperate to buy and I can usually (barely) control myself and be patient. This attitude has landed me many bargains in my life and made it very easy to sell on things once I'm done with them. This year alone I have sold several cars, all for substantially more than I bought them for. Depreciation is something I let other people enjoy

oinkely

And don' assume you will be bale to sell it on easily here either! The pool of potential second hand leaf buyers is not that big, and they all want the ultimate bargain.

unkel

I guess so. Would be interesting to see when the first of the Leafs from '14 onwards are coming out of PCP and hitting the second hand market next year. I'd expect some serious depreciation to kick in.

And as said, I'd only be interested in buying a second hand Leaf it was extremely cheap and if it wouldn't be too hard for me to sell it on at worst with a tiny loss, but preferably with a profit. The Leaf wouldn't be a long term solution for me, just something to play with. It's far more likely that I'd buy a brand new Ioniq next year or another EV in the next few years...

cros13

unkel wrote: »

I should have guessed, but it was from a main Nissan dealer. My dealings with main Nissan dealers in this country have been good, the people were honest and professional. Surprised to see that wasn't the case in the UK

The big difference with EVs is that often the main dealer doesn't understand what their selling. So it can be the case that whoever is putting up the Ad doesn't understand the battery lease situation with FLEX.

The EV market is still at the point where it's very much caveat emptor. If you've done your basic research the guy selling you the car will usually know less about the car he's selling you than you do.

Also just wanted to repeat the warning that the UK Visia spec usually excludes rapid charging, which would practically make the vehicle unsaleable 2nd hand.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

The big difference with EVs is that often the main dealer doesn't understand what their selling. So it can be the case that whoever is putting up the Ad doesn't understand the battery lease situation with FLEX.

I guess that is possible, but it also is highly unprofessional. We are talking only 3 or 4 simple main characteristics of an EV here. Any sales person (at a main dealer of the car!!!) should know this by heart and so should anyone responsible for putting up ads. This is elementary. I'm not talking about far more complex stuff like reading out the OBD2 port with Leaf Spy app / software etc.

cros13 wrote: »

the UK Visia spec usually excludes rapid charging

You might have told me / others this before, apologies if I forgot. But does that mean 3.3kw instead of 6.6kw AC charging (no biggie for me) or lack of CHAdeMO DC fast charging on a public charging point? The latter would degrade the car to second car use only for the overwhelming majority of people, myself included.

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Especially when it is a main Nissan dealer!

From the few weeks I was shopping, they're just as likely to do it - if not moreso in some cases - than independents. Some worse than others - perhaps they think they will entice someone down to the dealership and 'close them out' once they have them in front of them.

n97 mini wrote:

You seem to be on a never ending conquest for the ultimate bargain... Just buy one! You won't regret it.

If he's in a position to bide his time, there's nothing wrong with that. I've only seen one other car advertised since I bought that *might* have been better value (it was a cat d 2015 acenta that had been repaired and sold within a week for small money. Of course, it really remains to be seen what level of damage that car had taken - could have been significant or not so significant).

unkel wrote:

I'd only be interested in buying a second hand Leaf it was extremely cheap and if it wouldn't be too hard for me to sell it on

Remains to be seen if you would be able to turn it over fast. As oinkelly outlined, you're dealing with a very small pool of potential buyers in IRL - even if there is a difference between the pricepoint you will sell at and what irish dealers are selling at.

cros13

unkel wrote: »

Any sales person (at a main dealer of the car!!!) should know this by heart

Many would struggle to tell you more than:
It has four wheels
It's car shaped
You have to charge it

unkel wrote: »

But does that mean 3.3kw instead of 6.6kw AC charging (no biggie for me) or lack of CHAdeMO DC fast charging on a public charging point?

No CHAdeMO. The 2016 UK Visia spec includes CHAdeMO by default but anything earlier does not. In 2014/2015 the Visia got CHAdeMO as an optional extra (these would usually be specifically described as "Visia w/h Fast Charging"). The Irish XE equivalent was mostly ordered by dealers here with CHAdeMO as Nissan Ireland strongly encouraged it.

Other differences (note the Visia in the video has the optional rapid charging):

unkel

Oh Jaysus. Just like the Renault Fluence then? Only suitable as a second (city) car and like you say the market for one over here would be severely limited. I don't think you mentioned this in your super post about importing the Leaf though! In fact you say:

KCross wrote: »

The LEAF has a port for AC and DC charging(CHAdeMO).

So the DC port is completely absent in one of these? A picture of the port would tell then? Or what is the best way of finding out, VIN?

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

Many would struggle to tell you more than:
It has four wheels
It's car shaped
You have to charge it



No CHAdeMO. The 2016 UK Visia spec includes CHAdeMO by default but anything earlier does not. In 2014/2015 the Visia got CHAdeMO as an optional extra (these would usually be specifically described as "Visia w/h Fast Charging"). The Irish XE equivalent was mostly ordered by dealers here with CHAdeMO as Nissan Ireland strongly encouraged it.

I wouldn't touch a leaf without fast charging.

Talking about a sale proof car: 24 kWh with 3.3 no heat pump and no DC charging.

BoatMad

samih wrote: »

Talking about a sale proof car: 24 kWh with 3.3 no heat pump and no DC charging.

It's the consequence of chasing low priced " bargains " , some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

It's the consequence of chasing low priced " bargains " , some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

:rolleyes:

If that's the quality of your contributions, BoatMad, then please don't post in my thread.

oinkely

samih wrote: »

Talking about a sale proof car: 24 kWh with 3.3 no heat pump and no DC charging.

Looking at my leaf usage, I would consider it if the price was right. Charge mostly overnight at home, though sometimes use a public FCP / SCP if i need the extra range in the evening. IT would probably suit a lot of people who just use the car for commuting.

You would have to factor in the cost of having it delivered though, cause i can't see how you would ever get it home from the UK otherwise !

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

:rolleyes:

If that's the quality of your contributions, BoatMad, then please don't post in my thread.

Unless you own boards.ie , I an entitled to post anywhere I like

I was making the point , that your quest for a deal , is blinding you to the " value" of a proper " cost" not simply the lowest.

You need to understand carefully, EVs , what you want to use them for , what exact spec, battery life , flex issues, Chargers , cables. The cost of home EVSE etc. To simply , for example , not buy a second hand without evaluating the leaf spy output of battery data ( and understanding what you see ) is also madness

It's just not as simple as persuing , adds and thinking like it's an ice.

A " bargain " is not the lowest cost ,

BoatMad

oinkely wrote: »

Looking at my leaf usage, I would consider it if the price was right. Charge mostly overnight at home, though sometimes use a public FCP / SCP if i need the extra range in the evening. IT would probably suit a lot of people who just use the car for commuting.

You would have to factor in the cost of having it delivered though, cause i can't see how you would ever get it home from the UK otherwise !

If it has no chademo connector how can you charge at FCPs

Have you examined the leaf spy battery data ? , I wouldn't touch a second hand one until I reviewed that, and understood what I was looking at.

oinkely

oinkely wrote: »

samih wrote: »

Talking about a sale proof car: 24 kWh with 3.3 no heat pump and no DC charging.

Looking at my leaf usage, I would consider it if the price was right.  Charge mostly overnight at home, though sometimes use a public FCP / SCP if i need the extra range in the evening.  IT would probably suit a lot of people who just use the car for commuting.  

You would have to factor in the cost of having it delivered though, cause i can't see how you would ever get it home from the UK otherwise !

Forgot to add the Flex on my previous post. But yes, you are right, one without DC would work if you absolutely will never need to drive beyond the range of the overnight charge or maybe even for commuting if you had a dedicated charger at work. To even consider buying one it would definitely need to be cheeep. Personally I would probably buy a Gen 1 instead. The interior on the XE/Visia imo. feels really low rent and the original cars have really nice paint finish etc. etc. not to mention some useful extras compared to a bare bones 1.5.

BoatMad

samih wrote: »

Forgot to add the Flex on my previous post. But yes, you are right, one without DC would work if you absolutely will never need to drive beyond the range of the overnight charge or maybe even for commuting if you had a dedicated charger at work. To even consider buying one it would definitely need to be cheeep. Personally I would probably buy a Gen 1 instead. The interior on the XE/Visia imo. feels really low rent and the original cars have really nice paint finish etc. etc. not to mention some useful extras compared to a bare bones 1.5.

I'm stunned , given the nature of the charging network in Ireland , why anyone would ever buy a 3.3kw AC leaf . Madness in my view

oinkely

BoatMad wrote: »

If it has no chademo connector how can you charge at FCPs

Have you examined the leaf spy battery data ? , I wouldn't touch a second hand one until I reviewed that, and understood what I was looking at.

I appreciate that it would not be usable at chademo charge points. My point was simply that despite the limitations of no rapid charging and only a 3.3kw charger, if it suits your needs then it might make a fine vehicle for getting to /from work for a segment of the market, myself included.

No leaf spy check as I have no intention of adding a third electric vehicle to the household right now, maybe in 10 years when my kids are old enough to drive though!

For the moment I am happy with my 132 gen 1 and will be sticking with it and it's energy hungry heater and 3.3KW charging for the foreseeable future. My wife is equally happy with her 141 gen 1.5, both of which only occasionally see a rapid charger. As such we could easily work around having no DC rapid in one of the cars, IF the price was right.

BoatMad

For the moment I am happy with my 132 gen 1 and will be sticking with it and it's energy hungry heater and 3.3KW charging for the foreseeable future. My wife is equally happy with her 141 gen 1.5, both of which only occasionally see a rapid charger. As such we could easily work around having no DC rapid in one of the cars, IF the price was right.

I can see that from your posts, , why a third car anyway

cros13

The Fluence/Kangoo ZE and Leaf XE/Visia (sans CHAdeMO) both look like normal cars but they're in a special "you have to know what you're signing yourself up for" section of the EV market.

They're ideal 2nd EVs for an existing EV owner who understands the extent of the flexibility they'll lose by not having rapid charging. They are great runabouts around town or for short commuting use, but not having the option to rapid charge really hobbles them if you suddenly need to take a longer journey or exceed your usual mileage in a particularly busy day.

Add that to the difficulty selling them on (you have to find a buyer with the same limited needs as you) and they're really only worth buying if you are going to recoup nearly the full value of the car in its life with you. You can't rely on being able to sell it on in the future.

cros13

unkel wrote: »

So the DC port is completely absent in one of these? A picture of the port would tell then? Or what is the best way of finding out, VIN?

With CHAdeMO:


Without CHAdeMO:

oinkely

BoatMad wrote: »

I can see that from your posts, , why a third car anyway

Can't have the kids slumming it on the bus when they get older:D

BoatMad

oinkely wrote: »

Can't have the kids slumming it on the bus when they get older:D

"A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure."

attributed to Margaret Thatcher but not with any degree of certainty

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

And yes, I'm always looking for a bargain. I'm never desperate to buy and I can usually (barely) control myself and be patient. This attitude has landed me many bargains in my life and made it very easy to sell on things once I'm done with them. This year alone I have sold several cars, all for substantially more than I bought them for. Depreciation is something I let other people enjoy

If you put a cost on the time invested it's not such a bargain. Key is knowing when to stop. Life is too short and you can never get that back.

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

If you put a cost on the time invested it's not such a bargain. Key is knowing when to stop. Life is too short and you can never get that back.

I know where you are coming from, but it doesn't work for me like that. Some people spend a lot of time watching television, which they enjoy and they wouldn't think of that as lost time that costs them money. I don't watch television.

Some people feel the process of finding and buying a new car as a chore. I enjoy that process and I enjoy finding myself a bargain

n97 mini

I understand what you're saying, but you can't enjoy the new car will you're still searching for it. Search less = drive more!

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

I understand what you're saying, but you can't enjoy the new car will you're still searching for it. Search less = drive more!

He can enjoy the money in his back pocket!

Although I think it will be hard earned trying to make money in the Irish EV used market right now. If you were buying to order that might work better.

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

I understand what you're saying, but you can't enjoy the new car will you're still searching for it. Search less = drive more!

I own a Jaguar and a Porsche. Buying an EV this side of a Model S or i8 will actually take away from my driving enjoyment

Like almost everybody else buying an EV: let's not kid ourselves, it is mostly a money saving exercise...

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Like almost everybody else buying an EV: let's not kid ourselves, it is mostly a money saving exercise...

Starts out as that. Soon becomes a "wtf, why didn't we buy one sooner"

unkel wrote: »

I own a Jaguar and a Porsche.

I'm guessing they're pretty old? They'll feel like dinosaurs compared to a Leaf!

unkel

Haha, I like your enthusiasm. But the brand new Leaf I drove a few months ago felt like a handicapped, retired, cheap, not very well made dinosaur, that hasn't had any food or drink for a month compared to my 18 year old Porsche

And did I say the Leaf was extremely ugly too? :pac:

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Haha, I like your enthusiasm. But the brand new Leaf I drove a few months ago felt like a handicapped, retired, cheap, not very well made dinosaur, that hasn't had any food or drink for a month compared to

Sounds like Eco mode was on. But if you found it that bad, don't buy one!

unkel wrote: »

my 18 year old Porsche

And did I say the Leaf was extremely ugly too?

Those auld Porsches aren't lookers either, with the exception-ish of the 911.

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

Sounds like Eco mode was on.

Eco mode was not on. Well it couldn't have been. The range dropped 3 times as fast as I did kilometers. And I didn't even go over 80km/h

n97 mini wrote: »

if you found it that bad, don't buy one!

Don't twist my words. I did not find it bad at all.

Actually much better than most econoboxes with an ICE engine. The one thing where an EV excels is also the weakest point of a modern car with a small turbocharged ICE engine: a lot of torque from standstill.

But again, let's not kid ourselves. The Leaf is a cheap econobox. The sole reason anyone (apart from a few loonies trying to save the world) has for buying one is that it saves a lot of money compared to an equally cheapo ICE car. In fact I did some sums and buying a brand new Leaf for me is cheaper than keeping my 13 year old, zero depreciation, Jaguar. Total cost of ownership.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Don't twist my words. I did not find it bad at all.

unkel wrote: »

felt like a handicapped, retired, cheap, not very well made dinosaur, that hasn't had any food or drink for a month

I think that's self-explanatory.

You don't own an EV, so you don't have the benefit of experience. Whatever the reasons for buying the first one, people are converted by the ownership experience. Our next car will be another EV, I can't see us ever buying another ICE.

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Haha, I like your enthusiasm. But the brand new Leaf I drove a few months ago felt like a handicapped, retired, cheap, not very well made dinosaur, that hasn't had any food or drink for a month compared to my 18 year old Porsche

And did I say the Leaf was extremely ugly too? :pac:

Yes, it is most definitely about saving $$$ - there may be 10% who choose for environmental reasons but that's as far as it goes. Someone posted on the IEVOA facebook page - who was doing research on peoples motivations in buying an EV. With one or two exceptions, all said the main reason was cost saving.

As regards the car being ugly - I have mixed feelings on that topic - I agree its ugly but then the pragmatist in me thinks wtf - who cares. Because we are being continually bombarded with propaganda ref. the latest new shiny set of wheels, we all end up buying in to that making it a lifestyle purchase when it should simply be a buying decision based on what lump of steel provides the best value for money - and serves its purpose. I know most won't agree with this - but that's the approach I take.

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

You don't own an EV, so you don't have the benefit of experience.

Why would I have to own one to know what it's like? I've driven one and I've done the sums. It saves a sh1tload of money compared to buying a similar (new) ICE. And driving it is fine. Better than a similar ICE, particularly the nought to a bit acceleration

n97 mini wrote: »

Whatever the reasons for buying the first one

Eh, yeah, the one reason everyone has you mean? That it saves a sh1tload of money?

n97 mini wrote: »

people are converted by the ownership experience.

Of course. They feel directly in their pocket that it saves a sh1tload of money. Probably even more than they thought. And there's no more hassle like getting fuel at a fuel station, there's barely any maintenance, nothing breaks down, and did I mention they no longer have to pay the weekly €50 or €100 in fuel?

Two major drawbacks though. Range (getting much better in newer cars, but still nowhere near ICE and a major pain in the hole if you want to go from one end of the country to the other end in a few hours, not wanting it to take a full day) and potential depreciation (so far looking not too bad at all, but it is early days)

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Of course. They feel directly in their pocket that it saves a sh1tload of money. Probably even more than they thought. And there's no more hassle like getting fuel at a fuel station, there's barely any maintenance, nothing breaks down, and did I mention they no longer have to pay the weekly €50 or €100 in fuel?

Two major drawbacks though. Range (getting much better in newer cars, but still nowhere near ICE and a major pain in the hole if you want to go from one end of the country to the other end in a few hours, not wanting it to take a full day) and potential depreciation (so far looking not too bad at all, but it is early days)

I think you're right on. So.....it's a question of whether you are prepared to put up with the downsides in order to benefit from the upsides.....all the while being mindful that it could be a case of shifting sands (e.g. free charging may go soon - perhaps to be replaced with a reasonable fee paying system or something horrendous. Furthermore, depreciation may be an issue - but then I'm betting that there will be a market for older Leafs - as a second run around for people in town - when they're coming cheap at that point)....so they should retain a certain residual value.

As of mid - December, I'll have saved €640+ in fuel (bearing in mind thats in comparison with a highly efficient 1.4 TDCi ford I was driving before). A service would have been due by now for me given the mileage I'm doing - so that's another €100-150 saved (hardly ever leave without dropping that sort of money by the time everything is covered).

I didn't buy the leaf to save money at all, If I wanted to save money I would have kept the Prius. I bought it because I much prefer the EV drive and I wanted a change after 4 years driving the Prius and I can put the money saved on fuel and maintenance towards repayments which would not be available with a ICE.

Now after 2 years and 54K Kms later I'll never go back to ICE.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't buy the leaf to save money at all

Can't argue with you. However, you're a minority if that sample research feedback on the IEVOA FB page is anything to go by. I think there was in excess of 30 respondents - from memory, only 2 suggested that the key reason was anything other than financial.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Why would I have to own one to know what it's like?

Eh, yeah, the one reason everyone has you mean? That it saves a sh1tload of money?

You had a test drive; less than the equivalent of a one night stand. Maybe a cheeky snog at the bus stop is all you had.

As for your other point, I did say whatever the motivation for buying the first one, people will buy the second one because it's just a better all round experience. I used to be a petrol head, spent my summer just gone driving V8s in the US but now I wouldn't be arsed. Electric is the future.

isnottheword

n97 mini wrote: »

As for your other point, I did say whatever the motivation for buying the first one, people will buy the second one because it's just a better all round experience. I used to be a petrol head, spent my summer just gone driving V8s in the US but now I wouldn't be arsed. Electric is the future.

I'd go back to petrol or diesel tomorrow if the TCO mean't that it was cheaper overall.

That said, the expectation is that this won't be the case - and any rational government policy will see to it that petrol/diesel continue to become inherently more expensive to run whilst technological development and ever increasing economies of scale should see EV's offered at an ever improved pricepoint.

Do I like the idea of having moved early-ish to EV? - yes. Will I always have an interest in new tech - yes. But cost always is the first and primary consideration.

That's my viewpoint - perhaps others are different but by and large - I'm guessing most people are led by cost considerations in the first instance.

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

You had a test drive; less than the equivalent of a one night stand. Maybe a cheeky snog at the bus stop is all you had.

It felt more like a handjob from a granny without a happy ending :pac:

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Eco mode was not on. Well it couldn't have been. The range dropped 3 times as fast as I did kilometers. And I didn't even go over 80km/h



Don't twist my words. I did not find it bad at all.

Actually much better than most econoboxes with an ICE engine. The one thing where an EV excels is also the weakest point of a modern car with a small turbocharged ICE engine: a lot of torque from standstill.

But again, let's not kid ourselves. The Leaf is a cheap econobox. The sole reason anyone (apart from a few loonies trying to save the world) has for buying one is that it saves a lot of money compared to an equally cheapo ICE car. In fact I did some sums and buying a brand new Leaf for me is cheaper than keeping my 13 year old, zero depreciation, Jaguar. Total cost of ownership.

Correct. The leaf is a ordinary Jap econo-box small family 4 door car . That's what it was designed to be. I own one , I don't pretend it's a Porsche or even a moderately fast car. It's not.

However the driving experience of any EV is far far better then a clapped out Porsche in my view.