Skill based match making - Destiny

Mitch Connor

Posted this on Reddit but it will probably get downvoted (cause doesn't everything) or lost in the sea of other SBMM posts - so I'll post it up here too.

Personally, I just can't work out where I stand on SBMM. I'm an average player, more often than not on the poor side of average I would say. However, I have played so much that my stats are padded high. I have also a passive playstyle that keeps my KD generally good. I have dragged my KD (in mainly 6vs6) from sub 1 to 1.22 in the last year or so, and I would say my average in the last year is 1.5 or higher.

Like others have said - solo queueing is horrible. Takes a while and I end up in matches I struggle to keep a 1.0KD in - had a game the other day where a 5 kkill streak towards the end of the match helped me get a 0.64KD! I find it punishing, and generally not much fun.

However, I have also played games with my clan, and in particular IB, where I would be hitting 2.0 to 4.0 KDs (not always - but it wouldn't be utterly unusual to do that well) and having a great time of it. But due to SBMM and team balancing I know I am doing that at the expense of others. I have seen players getting 0.2 per game. Saw one game where his only kill was from a Super. I know when they solo queue they gets on just fine. But I have to wonder how on earth he enjoys playing with our clan - and getting utterly stomped like that. If MM was changed to a state that he played (possibly) more games solo like he does in the clan, would he play at all? Obviosly the community aspect, banter and fun come into it, as well as possibly a resignation over what is to come (but sweet loot on the way).

Sometimes I find MM poison, for myself, but in general I can understand the goal of (looking to) making games 'fair' where everyone is around the same skill level. Yes, that makes games sweaty more often than not, but I can't decide if that is really a bad thing or not, Should Destiny be changed so I can pub stomp more often? I know people mention wanting to try out new guns in PvP but the meta game makes this too difficult - and I understand that. But is that an issue with MM or gun balance? If more guns were more viable would that be a solution rather than changing the skill parameters? I also think the shotgun meta is overblown - i generally do well enough and I think Sidearms, Fusions and not running in blind tight to a corner are good enough counters - but that might be down to my own skill level, in the respect I am low enough on the skill chart that i'm not coming across the best shotgunners enough for it to be a big issue for me.

One big problem with the SBMM discussion (and I know it is acknowledged here, so I am not claiming to be shining a light on this) is that we can only offer our opinion based on our experiences - and these will all be different. Our location, internet setups and skill will all mean we face differing issues. A super player is going to have a much worse time of it because the number of other super players is going to be a relatively tiny number of the global player base - so in a mode that tries to pit them against their own level they are going to have a bad time - top players and possibly poor connections (to/from them). The more average you are at this game, the better your experience will be because that is where most of the player base is. If I lived beisde Lumi, or DrLupo, should I be shat on every other game because my connection to them would be awesome? Should my enjoyment of the game be based on me competing vs people I have a chance against or those I have the best connection with? Match making is HARD and I'm glad its not something i've to solve, cause I couldn't do it.

Dedicated servers? Great if your connection to the server is great. If it is poor then its still crap.
Ranked and Unranked? Further split the player base and create further connection issues - possibly. How would you incentivise each one? How would you balance unranked so that people aren't going to get stomped when they go in there for fun?

Also, while I do agree SBMM can cause connection based issues in the game, I also wonder if there is a population issue causing this as well. There are 12 or so PvP playlists I think - and Raids, Strikes, Patrols, Story. As the player base moves towards other games (short, medium or long term) we also have the player base being fragmented within the playlists - which I think is part of the problem too.

I wonder if for 6vs6 modes and 3vs3 modes, whether Bungie should take a 'Classic' approach and lump all the players into one pool (of either selected game size) and rotate the game mode - increasing the overall number of players available for 'Control' or 'Clash' or 'Rift' rather than a smaller fraction of the player base being available for each one.

gimli2112

I think SBMM or CBMM works out ok either way for the general unwashed (like me). Where you run into problems is SBMM, with the better players getting consistently matched up with better players on dodgy connections. This is a recipe for disaster imo.
CBMM becomes a lot harder for the more average player as the player pool diminishes and you're left with generally better players.

AdamD

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Posted this on Reddit but it will probably get downvoted (cause doesn't everything) or lost in the sea of other SBMM posts - so I'll post it up here too.

Personally, I just can't work out where I stand on SBMM. I'm an average player, more often than not on the poor side of average I would say. However, I have played so much that my stats are padded high. I have also a passive playstyle that keeps my KD generally good. I have dragged my KD (in mainly 6vs6) from sub 1 to 1.22 in the last year or so, and I would say my average in the last year is 1.5 or higher.

Like others have said - solo queueing is horrible. Takes a while and I end up in matches I struggle to keep a 1.0KD in - had a game the other day where a 5 kkill streak towards the end of the match helped me get a 0.64KD! I find it punishing, and generally not much fun.

However, I have also played games with my clan, and in particular IB, where I would be hitting 2.0 to 4.0 KDs (not always - but it wouldn't be utterly unusual to do that well) and having a great time of it. But due to SBMM and team balancing I know I am doing that at the expense of others. I have seen players getting 0.2 per game. Saw one game where his only kill was from a Super. I know when they solo queue they gets on just fine. But I have to wonder how on earth he enjoys playing with our clan - and getting utterly stomped like that. If MM was changed to a state that he played (possibly) more games solo like he does in the clan, would he play at all? Obviosly the community aspect, banter and fun come into it, as well as possibly a resignation over what is to come (but sweet loot on the way).

Sometimes I find MM poison, for myself, but in general I can understand the goal of (looking to) making games 'fair' where everyone is around the same skill level. Yes, that makes games sweaty more often than not, but I can't decide if that is really a bad thing or not, Should Destiny be changed so I can pub stomp more often? I know people mention wanting to try out new guns in PvP but the meta game makes this too difficult - and I understand that. But is that an issue with MM or gun balance? If more guns were more viable would that be a solution rather than changing the skill parameters? I also think the shotgun meta is overblown - i generally do well enough and I think Sidearms, Fusions and not running in blind tight to a corner are good enough counters - but that might be down to my own skill level, in the respect I am low enough on the skill chart that i'm not coming across the best shotgunners enough for it to be a big issue for me.

One big problem with the SBMM discussion (and I know it is acknowledged here, so I am not claiming to be shining a light on this) is that we can only offer our opinion based on our experiences - and these will all be different. Our location, internet setups and skill will all mean we face differing issues. A super player is going to have a much worse time of it because the number of other super players is going to be a relatively tiny number of the global player base - so in a mode that tries to pit them against their own level they are going to have a bad time - top players and possibly poor connections (to/from them). The more average you are at this game, the better your experience will be because that is where most of the player base is. If I lived beisde Lumi, or DrLupo, should I be shat on every other game because my connection to them would be awesome? Should my enjoyment of the game be based on me competing vs people I have a chance against or those I have the best connection with? Match making is HARD and I'm glad its not something i've to solve, cause I couldn't do it.

Dedicated servers? Great if your connection to the server is great. If it is poor then its still crap.
Ranked and Unranked? Further split the player base and create further connection issues - possibly. How would you incentivise each one? How would you balance unranked so that people aren't going to get stomped when they go in there for fun?

Also, while I do agree SBMM can cause connection based issues in the game, I also wonder if there is a population issue causing this as well. There are 12 or so PvP playlists I think - and Raids, Strikes, Patrols, Story. As the player base moves towards other games (short, medium or long term) we also have the player base being fragmented within the playlists - which I think is part of the problem too.

I wonder if for 6vs6 modes and 3vs3 modes, whether Bungie should take a 'Classic' approach and lump all the players into one pool (of either selected game size) and rotate the game mode - increasing the overall number of players available for 'Control' or 'Clash' or 'Rift' rather than a smaller fraction of the player base being available for each one.

I fundamentally disagree with Bungie's approach because I believe that if you are above average you should win more than 50% of your games. Aside from that, which is a big issue IMO, there are some other issues I have with SBMM.

• It has severely lengthened matchmaking times for me.
• I'll often matchmake the same people repeatedly (over the course of days, or when I leave before the match starts etc.)
• As there is no ranking system it can make you feel like you're going backwards even if you're actually improving.
• If you stop playing for a while the game has no way of taking this into account or no casual playlists to ease you back in so you're screwed.
• It actually makes it more difficult for average players to improve and succeed in trials as they will never come across good players and teams during the week so when they hit 6+ wins on trials they suddenly face entirely different standards and tactics and lose badly.

I also don't think changing to CBMM would effect the average player as much as people make out. You aren't suddenly going to play top 1% players every game, or even that regularly. Its statistically impossible, they are still 1/100 of the playerbase. And (CONTROVERSIAL), yes I'd like to pub stomp sometimes. I've put time into the game, I'm objectively good at it, I'd like to hit some big scores every now and then. FWIW CBMM widens the skill base so that average players will also have some big games, and get some greater enjoyment from them (and some poorer games too of course).


As regards to your comment on shotguns, I think that outlines the issue well, in my matchmaking fusions and sidearms aren't an option whatsoever, you will get destroyed. Its not exaggeration either, those guns simply have nothing on shotties.

Generic Dreadhead

6v6 and 3v3 are different beasts when it comes to SBMM.

6v6 is tolerable if you're good, be it in a group, or solo
3v3 is very sweaty, very often and rarely fun solo-queue

dudeeile

SBMM is septic, I get very little enjoyment from solo queueing but sometimes it is a necessary evil. I believe that this one thing is killing the game for a lot of people.

Serbian

I'm a fan of skill based match making. The argument of hitting top 1% players as being 1 in 100 is fair assuming all of the players are available all of the time, but the reality is top 1% players play far more often than the bottom 20%? 30%? so you're probably a lot more likely to get a top player than you think.

I also think that skill based match making keeps a lot more people playing the Crucible. If it were connection based, those bottom 30% of players have an extremely high chance of getting stomped in every game because most players are already better than them. I feel like many of them would quit because it's zero fun to go 0.2 for five games in a row, which probably means that the current above-average player becomes a below-average player as the population thins out, and they in turn start to get stomped, which leads to more players leaving etc etc.

If you want to see what the world looks like without skill based matchmaking, look at Trials of Osiris. Stacked teams matching up with Trials newbies and everything in between, many people get stomped, leave, the population of the playlist shrinks week on week. Since the release of Rise of Iron, the population of Trials has dropped 57%. It dropped 15% between Rusted Lands and Asylum last week alone. The percentage of accounts going flawless is dropping. 15% at ROI release, 12% now. It dropped to 10% towards the end of The Taken King. Last week was the lowest Trials participation in four months. And this is a playlist with decent, unique rewards.

Problems with the Crucible are just not match making based for me. They need to find a way of improving connection quality without making too much of a compromise on skill based matchmaking. They need to increase the tick rate of the servers to stop stupid trades around corners. They don't need to remove skill based matchmaking.

AdamD

Trials is different though. SBMM's existence exaggerates the gap between teams when it becomes Trials matchmaking as the lower skill teams have zero experience playing anyone decent, making it even more difficult for them. The elimination game mode again makes it worse for them as they can lose extremely quickly and not get a single kill in a game. Its a unique mode and shouldn't be considered in relation to the rest of the matchmaking.

In relation to trials participation numbers. You could claim its to do with matchmaking but there are other clear reasons why it drops too:

In the opening weeks everyone has a low light level and trials is a source of gear so you see more PvE players than normal. This drops off quickly, hence a large drop.
Trials has also seen big drops due to poor map choices, that spooky trials bull**** and just general decreases in the game's population.

You can't put SBMM in Trials, players going for the same gear should not have to face tougher players because they have a good track record. That would be ridiculous.