Dual source heating system help,

eiei0

Hi all

I have ofch and a 20kw stove, the heating is pressurised, I have 3 zones plus hot water on a system link manifold, I have the stove tied into the system using a system link heat Genie,

I'm not getting the heat from the stove I was expecting its a hamco Morgan 20b and I could be loading turf by the barrow into it and it's not doing much for the rads, I have 6 rads on the zone I run all the time

one is a base board heater one is a 500x600 double another is a 500 x 500 double the rest are 1200 x 500 doubles some basic calculations shows it to be about 30000 btu's but the 15kw of the stove show be over 50k so where am I loosing the heat, all pipes are lagged, I have the pipe stat on the stove at 65 as lower than 60 and it lost the water heat to quickly,

I am unsure of the best way to have the pumps running there is 2 pumps for the stove both of these are set at speed 2, and the 3 zone pumps are set at 2 also is that too fast, is faster or slower on the pumps better for heat transfer,

The heat Genie is in the attic above the stove but well below the 3m system link recommend as a maximum height,

My plumber does not know so that's not an option,

Thanks

Bscan86

Forgive me if I'm totally in d wrong but... set the stat to 50 and swap to the other pipe off the stove.

froshtyv

How long have you the system in?

Has it ever worked correctly?

When your pipe stat is operated, it should operate 3 pumps.
(1) Pump on the stove side of the heat exchanger
(2) Pump on the system link side of the exchanger
(3) One of your 3 heating zones pump

my3cents

OP I think your problem may be that you aren't generating the heat in the first place so you aren't loosing it anywhere.

Try a bag of expensive smokeless fuel as a comparison. The rated output of your stove won't have been calculated with the worst fuel it will have been calculated with the best fuel to give the best result. If burning coal will give the full 20KW capacity of the stove then as a comparison you may only get 13KW with turf.

eiei0

Hi thanks for the replies, firstly I have tried some board Na Mona premium stove fuel and I didn't notice much improvement but I will get some polish coal and try that,
2nd

The house is built 8 years the stove only went in a few weeks back, so the stove side is new I am only using it a week or 2 since the weather turned cold I've noticed I'm not getting the heat I was expecting,

I replaced a room heater stove with the hamco boiler stove

Thanks

eiei0

Sorry I forget to address the pumps

Yes it does turn on the 2 pumps the heat exchanger and the system link one, I manually control the zone I wish to open, I usually let the system link manifold heat to 60deg before I turn on a zone as I find it help heat the rads quicker, only thing with this is once I open a zone the pump is on all the time it doesn't switch in or out with the other 2 if you know what I mean, would the zone being open all the time be causing any heat loss,
Thanks

demanufactured

How does expansion work if it's a pressurised a system.
Isn't that a nono?

eiei0

Have a Google of "system link heat Genie" it ties the vented stove side into the pressurised heating making it safe,

On my phone so can't do links easily

Thanks

demanufactured wrote: »

How does expansion work if it's a pressurised a system.
Isn't that a nono?

my3cents

OP given your previous calculations you should be able to work out the amount of heat you should get out of a specific weight of coal and see if that lines up with your expectations. Knock of 25% for heat loss up the chimney.

eiei0

Tbh I'm not sure how I would go about that,

I'll get some better coal and try that and maybe balance the rads and see if that helps,

demanufactured

Try a bag of arigna ecobrite.

tashiusclay

What pipe is your pipe stat on at the stove, the flow or return pipe?

my3cents

tashiusclay wrote: »

What pipe is your pipe stat on at the stove, the flow or return pipe?

Should be connected up according to the pdf here.

eiei0

The stat is on the flow and I have a bad of Ecobright and still poor heat,

What I have noticed is there is heat leaking upstairs on the manifold when the pump is off, I guess it's Robbing the heat from the open zone,

But the stove should be well able to heat those 2 zones but I guess it not,

Thanks

demanufactured

Ecobrite should be melting you out of it

eiei0

No far from it I find once the coal starts to glow and the flame dies away there is no heat,

I am really struggling to see why this stove can not heat the few rads I have on,

I am not seeing over 55 deg c at the manifold surely the stove should have the water near boiling with a large coal fire ???

my3cents

Really there can only be two reasons that the water doesn't get that hot. First is there isn't enough heat from the fire the other is the water is taking away the heat to quickly.

Its a long shot but is the stove put together correctly? What I'd be looking for is fire bricks put across the back of the stove shielding the boiler from the heat, the height of the grate in relation to the boiler and that there is nothing blocking the air flow.

demanufactured

my3cents wrote: »

Really there can only be two reasons that the water doesn't get that hot. First is there isn't enough heat from the fire the other is the water is taking away the heat to quickly.

Its a long shot but is the stove put together correctly? What I'd be looking for is fire bricks put across the back of the stove shielding the boiler from the heat, the height of the grate in relation to the boiler and that there is nothing blocking the air flow.

I'd also be checking that the baffle plate Is installed cirrectly and not just letting all the heat up the chimney.

eiei0

Hi thanks again for the replies,

There is no bricks in it and it looks to be assembled correctly it came assembled,

What I did last night was turn off 2 rads on my main zone so I had 4 on 2 x 1200 doubles a 600 double and a base board heater, my main hall is very large and high and I think the rad in it a 1200 double is grossly undersized so I turned that and the 500 double in the utility room off and the zone was noticeably warmer, I was seeing 55-60 on the feed to the manifold,
I turned off 2 of the 5 rads upstairs and it was able to heat the 4 down stairs and 3 up stairs to a somewhat acceptable level, I was feeding the stove with a mix of coal and timber as I find timber is better for a large flame to heat the boiler,

Turning off the down stairs the feed to the manifold got up to slightly over 70 deg this is the hottest I have seen it with a open zone,

I'm beginning to think the stove coupled to the heat Genie isn't as efficient as if I was using a traditional open system with a cylinder,

I still think some fine tuning is needed with the pump speeds I need to stop the heat leakage upstairs when that zone is off and maybe insulate the heat Genie better to stop heat loss into the attic,

Looking back the 3k I spent on this would have been better spent on oil but you live and learn,

my3cents

Flame and heat are two different things. A stove full of anthracite could just glow at you and be giving out twice as much heat as wood with a massive flame.

eiei0

Maybe so but the pipe thermostat at the manifold isn't giving the results I am hoping for, I am mixing anthracite and ecobright currently and its the best I have seen it so far, but its still not as hot as I would have wished for,

I'll keep at it, I was talking to the plumber and we are going to add so TRV and a Motorsed valve in the new year to try to get the heat going where I want it,

I'll report back any findings I get as I am sure google will turn up this post for someone in years to come searching a issue like this,

Thanks

my3cents

So better fuel is giving better results? Can you work out how much fuel you are burning in a day so you can work out how much heat you are putting into the system. Your mix of anthracite and ecobright should yield about 8.5KW (hr) per kilo. Reduce the result by 30% to allow for loses up the chimney and then alllow 3-5KW (hr) for space heating so what remains is the amount of heat going into your heating system. In case its not obvious the back of envelope calculation is that 1 kilo of fuel will create the same amount of heat as 8.5KW hrs of electric - you can convert to btus if thats more helpful.

I'm being a bit pedantic and want you to see how much heat you are producing so you can check if you are using enough fuel. People that aren't used to heating with solid fuel don't always realise how much fuel is needed. One house I used to live in easily used 3 tonnes of ovoids (similar output to ecobright) a year to keep the place warm and heat the water.

addisb

Reading this with much interest. I too had a Heat Genie installed a couple of years back. It couples a Yeoman Solid Fuel Stove to an existing 10 year old sealed Gas Central heating system. The install was a nightmare. First Plumber made a total mess of it, despite taking the job on. The second Plumber was somewhat familiar with the Systemlink and righted all the wrongs and got it up and running.
Regarding your expectations: I would say that I need to fairly load on the fuel to keep it to the minimum that the gas would heat the rads to. Balancing the rads and the pumps: obviously a black art and to me a compromise. You can balance the system with the gas turned on and its up the creek with the back boiler..and vise versa.
Regarding the system itself: I have read and understand the safety features of the Heat Genie, now being the proud owner I regret having installed it ( 4 bedroom very standard house in a housing estate ) I am not comfortable enough to load on a large fire: I would carp it if the power goes ( or when one of the pumps goes west ) I lost power last Christmas Eve with the fire lighting. I literally lifted the burning fuel out and into an Ash Safe and disposed of it in the garden. I have read and understand the safety features. . . hearing the back boiler bubble and boil is not comforting! The cold water safety circuit was tested on initial installation. Perhaps better if I had not been there for that. My in laws have a similar stove heating their rads directly using a standard open vented system and there is no comparison to the heat given off through their rads ( and to their hot water tank! ) I wish you the best of luck. For me: when my 10 year old Gas Boiler goes west I will have a modern efficient one installed with Upstairs / Downstairs zoned and go back to my old stove with no back boiler. I wish you the very best of Irish luck and hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction

eiei0

Hi thanks for the detailed reply and help, I will have to try to keep better records of what I am burning and how much, currently I am still trying to settle on a type of coal that I am happy with the heat output and local availability, once I find one I am happy with I will keep a log of usage,

Thanks

my3cents wrote: »

So better fuel is giving better results? Can you work out how much fuel you are burning in a day so you can work out how much heat you are putting into the system. Your mix of anthracite and ecobright should yield about 8.5KW (hr) per kilo. Reduce the result by 30% to allow for loses up the chimney and then alllow 3-5KW (hr) for space heating so what remains is the amount of heat going into your heating system. In case its not obvious the back of envelope calculation is that 1 kilo of fuel will create the same amount of heat as 8.5KW hrs of electric - you can convert to btus if thats more helpful.

I'm being a bit pedantic and want you to see how much heat you are producing so you can check if you are using enough fuel. People that aren't used to heating with solid fuel don't always realise how much fuel is needed. One house I used to live in easily used 3 tonnes of ovoids (similar output to ecobright) a year to keep the place warm and heat the water.

my3cents

eiei0 wrote: »

Hi thanks for the detailed reply and help, I will have to try to keep better records of what I am burning and how much, currently I am still trying to settle on a type of coal that I am happy with the heat output and local availability, once I find one I am happy with I will keep a log of usage,

Thanks

Get a mixed pallet from Coal warehouse bargain alert thread, you have to by a tonne and need access for a curtain side wagon but they will give you a mix on the pallet, I'd recommend you try ovoids (actually not much else coal warehouse do would suit you). Savings are about 25% so I look at it that I can have the house 25% warmer for the same money

Bruthal

addisb wrote: »

Reading this with much interest. I too had a Heat Genie installed a couple of years back

I installed a stove and heat genie just over a year ago too, the genie is linking to a sealed gas CH system. Works perfectly. So if they are fitted correctly, they work very well. Serious work involved, particularly in opening up the fireplace.