Too soon to jump?

mirrorwall14

Hi everyone,

I've got a budget of about 10k all in for a car. I'm half and half about jumping to a nissan leaf from it.

A couple of major queries I guess:
1. We do not have a driveway. We park on the street outside our house (paved footpath) and own a parking space across the road. Is it prohibitively expensive to install a charger in this case? Its still owned by the developer (not the council).

2. Is it worth it to import a leaf from the UK?

3. Is our budget really too low to do charger/decent enough leaf? Or should we just wait another few years and go to electric then?

KCross

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Hi everyone,

I've got a budget of about 10k all in for a car. I'm half and half about jumping to a nissan leaf from it.

A couple of major queries I guess:
1. We do not have a driveway. We park on the street outside our house (paved footpath) and own a parking space across the road. Is it prohibitively expensive to install a charger in this case? Its still owned by the developer (not the council).

2. Is it worth it to import a leaf from the UK?

3. Is our budget really too low to do charger/decent enough leaf? Or should we just wait another few years and go to electric then?

1. An EV without home charging could be very expensive to run using the public network. It's free now but won't be long term so your first job is to get a quote from the developer as you really need that.

2. Absolutely. Several thousand in savings if you are buying under 3yrs old.

3. It could be too low if the charger is expensive which is why I say figure that out first.

mirrorwall14

KCross wrote: »

1. An EV without home charging could be very expensive to run using the public network. It's free now but won't be long term so your first job is to get a quote from the developer as you really need that.

2. Absolutely. Several thousand in savings if you are buying under 3yrs old.

3. It could be too low if the charger is expensive which is why I say figure that out first.

Yeah we definitely won't go electric at all without a charger, too insecure. I've emailed all the people on the list the ESB sent me so it will be interesting to see what comes back in terms of price

Without home charging, forget it. You don't want to rely on public charging.

You'd want to find out where you stand insurance wise, someone could trip over the cable if the location has people walking around. You know what this country is like. Then there is the possibility of vandalism if it's not in a secure location.

EV charging will need to become a legal right in this country.

Not sure what you will get for 10K but if you can at all the current gen from very late 2013 has a much improved battery and is more efficient for winter driving and more efficient in general.

What's your daily mileage needs ?

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

You'd want to find out where you stand insurance wise, someone could trip over the cable if the location has people walking around.

My insurance company said this would be covered as public liability is covered by the third-party portion of the insurance.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

My insurance company said this would be covered as public liability is covered by the third-party portion of the insurance.

If that's in writing I'd be happy enough.

Technically it's nothing to do with the car itself so I'd be cautious if it's not in black and white.

KCross

Personally, I'd be more concerned about the cable, the charger and the port on the car. If someone trips on those and pulls the cable sideways hard on the port it could be an expensive fix!

Like Mad_Lad, I wouldnt trust the insurance company to cover a person falling over it. If they could find a loophole to dodge paying out Im sure they will. We'll have to wait for the first test case to see, I suppose.

n97 mini

Someone tripping on the cable wouldn't be treated any differently by the insurance company than them tripping over anything else, assuming there is a policy in place.

pwurple

Does your workplace have chargers?

I assume the developer will not install one, as the question of payment for it will be a problem.

kala85

How can I work out the cost of a nightly charge on the battery,

For example how much does a unit of electricity cost to charge the battery.

Say I buy a 30 kwh battery ev leaf for example, what would be the cost per km in terms of fuel and electricity used and how can I work it out.

kala85

kala85 wrote: »

How can I work out the cost of a nightly charge on the battery,

For example how much does a unit of electricity cost to charge the battery.

Say I buy a 30 kwh battery ev leaf for example, what would be the cost per km in terms of fuel and electricity used and how can I work it out.

If you buy the 30 Kwh battery it will have around 28 Kwh usable.

I have night rate electricity costing 8C per Kwh and about 16C day, if you had the same a full charge would cost €2.24 + 10% because the charger isn't 100% efficient, but an excellent 90% efficient. So total cost would be €2.46. But you won't get home with 0% so chances are you'll have a fair few Kwh in the battery before you charge.

My efficiency this year is about 18 Kwh/100 kms "Average".

So 100/18 = 5.55 Kms per Kwh and a Kwh will cost you 8C if charging at night or 16 Day or a mix of both depending on how much topping up you do if any during the day but excluding anu

So to get an calculation of "average" range based on 18 Kwh/100 kms multiply 5.5 x 28 Kwh of usable energy in the battery = 155 kms. But you'd want to be charging at that.

Efficiency will vary depending on driving style, weather etc but can be anywhere from 14 Kwh/100 kms to 22 Kwh/100 kms driving quiet hard.

Soarer

Or to put it another way, using the figures above...

If your diesel car does 100kms per gallon, and diesel is currently 115c per litre, 100kms would cost you €5.22 in the diesel.
The same 100kms, saying 18kwh @ 8.8c per kwh (10% inefficiency) night rate would cost you €1.58.
That's a saving of €3.64 for every 100kms you drive just on fuel!

BoatMad

Soarer wrote: »

Or to put it another way, using the figures above...

If your diesel car does 100kms per gallon, and diesel is currently 115c per litre, 100kms would cost you €5.22 in the diesel.
The same 100kms, saying 18kwh @ 8.8c per kwh (10% inefficiency) night rate would cost you €1.58.
That's a saving of €3.64 for every 100kms you drive just on fuel!

I get consistently around 15.6Kw per 100 km in my 30 KWH leaf , hence at 8 cents ( mind you , this is the marginal costs, we really should factor the standing and PSO back into the units )

15.8kw @ 8 cents = €1.26 per 100 Km , beat that ICE monsters !

( my nissan navara is returning around 9.4 litres per 100 KM , so the equivalent journey is 9.4 @118 cents €11.09 OMG :eek:)

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I get consistently around 15.6Kw per 100 km in my 30 KWH leaf , hence at 8 cents ( mind you , this is the marginal costs, we really should factor the standing and PSO back into the units )

Why factor those in?
They are set figures per connection and not related to your usage or presence of an EV?

Yes exactly, you're already paying this EV or not.

josip

If/whenever there is ever increased/massive uptake of EV do people expect that the incentivised night rate will remain the same?

KCross

josip wrote: »

If/whenever there is ever increased/massive uptake of EV do people expect that the incentivised night rate will remain the same?

The crystal ball would need to be looking 20-30 years out I'd say!

The reason for night rate is simply that the network is under utilised at that time. You'd need alot of EV's to soak up all that capacity and then I'm sure the energy regulator would change the night rate.

The future seems to be going more the way of smart metering than a simple day/night rate.

mirrorwall14

Thanks to everyone for replying, i'm having fun reading away We're asking around about pillar chargers and prices because that will more or less decide things for us. If we can't get permission for one or they take too much off the budget for the car itself then it might be a matter of waiting but it will definitely be something we look into in the future.

Current milage on the car is commute of 45km twice a day plus a trip down west once a month or so the guts of 2500 km a month. Thats why we would consider it even though there is the hassle of the developers and a pillar on street

90 Kms commute, I can only dream !

The cost of the charger, compare to the cost of petrol or diesel, it will pay back and you will have it for many years hopefully, they're really not that complicated a device and should not give any issues. Mine is still perfect after nearly 2 years and almost daily use.

mirrorwall14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

90 Kms commute, I can only dream !

The cost of the charger, compare to the cost of petrol or diesel, it will pay back and you will have it for many years hopefully, they're really not that complicated a device and should not give any issues. Mine is still perfect after nearly 2 years and almost daily use.

Is yours longer? Time wise it's a bloody long one coz it's into the city. Luckily mine is much shorter, its the OH who has the long one

kala85

[Deleted User] wrote: »

90 Kms commute, I can only dream !

The cost of the charger, compare to the cost of petrol or diesel, it will pay back and you will have it for many years hopefully, they're really not that complicated a device and should not give any issues. Mine is still perfect after nearly 2 years and almost daily use.

How is your battery. Has it degraded any bit.

What about the service costs or any other problems with the car.

mirrorwall14

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Is yours longer? Time wise it's a bloody long one coz it's into the city. Luckily mine is much shorter, its the OH who has the long one

My commute is about 135-140 kms depending on the route I take, I can't go the M7 Naas bypass any more, it's beyond desperate. So I take back roads and rejoin north of Kill.

I work Shift so only see peak traffic 5 days a week but still take some back roads to avoid the M7 Naas bypass and rejoin the N7 north of Kill.

I should add that I have work charging so half my commute is free. I used to charge at Naas for 10-15 mins.

kala85

kala85 wrote: »

How is your battery. Has it degraded any bit.

What about the service costs or any other problems with the car.

Battery is doing exceptionally well, See below. Showing 100% health after 2 years ad nearly 54,000 Kms, however if I am off shift and leave the car sit for a few days and not drive or charge much then the reported health drops. Either way it is very impressive considering the way I drive.

antodeco

Just to jump in on this thread, what is the cost to get a charger put into the house? I've a driveway, night rate, and a 50km roundtrip to my job, 5 days a week.

isnottheword

antodeco wrote: »

Just to jump in on this thread, what is the cost to get a charger put into the house? I've a driveway, night rate, and a 50km roundtrip to my job, 5 days a week.

Depends on how you go about it - how long does the cable run need to be? Can you have a look at sourcing the charger yourself? Can you fix the unit yourself (from a legal prospective, all you need to do is get a certified electrician to hook up the cable to the main fuse box.

KCross

antodeco wrote: »

Just to jump in on this thread, what is the cost to get a charger put into the house? I've a driveway, night rate, and a 50km roundtrip to my job, 5 days a week.

A few other threads on that subject
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101388127&postcount=2

Calahonda52

KCross wrote: »

Personally, I'd be more concerned about the cable, the charger and the port on the car. If someone trips on those and pulls the cable sideways hard on the port it could be an expensive fix!

Like Mad_Lad, I wouldnt trust the insurance company to cover a person falling over it. If they could find a loophole to dodge paying out Im sure they will. We'll have to wait for the first test case to see, I suppose.

The above is about PL @ home.
What about PL a@ a public charge point:
see attached picture: charging unit on edge of path

The other slot is better but was occupied.

n97 mini

Because that cable has so much slack on it you'd have to take a few steps with it around your ankle before you'd trip. You're more likely to trip on the kerb in my mind.

But assuming someone did trip, was the cable owner careless, and knowingly so?

I'd be of the opinion that a judge would find it very hard to find against anyone but the person who tripped. You do have a duty of care to yourself too!

KCross

I suppose it will take a test case to be sure.

But I cant see either how a judge would take the side of the injured party. Its not your fault where the charger and the space are positioned. The cable simply goes from A to B. Unless you have an extra long cable and have it strewn across the road or something!

liamog

It's a gap. Maybe BEVOC should write a letter to Minister Ross.

cros13

I queried my insurance. They said it would be covered under the public liability portion of the insurance unless there was a finding of negligent behavior on my part.

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

I queried my insurance. They said it would be covered under the public liability portion of the insurance unless there was a finding of negligent behavior on my part.

So it means someone could supposedly trip over it and claim against you and presumably losing your no claims bonus?! :eek:

I dont like the sound of that. No doubt the insurance company would just pay out rather than taking their chances in court.

I've yet to hear of anyone tripping over an ev charge cable at a charge point.

There should be a law to prevent people making a claim on the basis, "you got eyes then use them"

Calahonda52

Deleted User wrote: »

I've yet to hear of anyone tripping over an ev charge cable at a charge point.

its not an issue with some of them, just this one is a bit problematic.
the ones in the Dart station are fine as its straight in against the fence, just like at home

liamog

At the moment there is no precedent set.
The first time a claim is made your insurer is probably going to have to take it to court.

Somebody will claim that you left your charging car unattended, therefore you are negligent.

slave1

We all have a duty of care, if you leave your car with a trip hazard then IMHO you have exposed yourself through lack of care, the poor position of the charge point in relation to the car charge port is irrelevant IMHO and it is your choice to charge up...

KCross

Lets hope you are not going to be promoted to a judge then!

cros13

KCross wrote: »

So it means someone could supposedly trip over it and claim against you and presumably losing your no claims bonus?! :eek:

Well it's the same part of your insurance that covers you from claims from idiots not looking where they are going, walking into your parked car and breaking their nose.

Someone tripping over a EV cable is not something I've ever heard of causing a problem in the real world. Norway has 50 times the amount of EVs as Ireland with roughly the same population. They tend to come up against issues before us and it hasn't been an issue there.

josip

cros13 wrote: »

Well it's the same part of your insurance that covers you from claims from idiots not looking where they are going, walking into your parked car and breaking their nose.

Someone tripping over a EV cable is not something I've ever heard of causing a problem in the real world. Norway has 50 times the amount of EVs as Ireland with roughly the same population. They tend to come up against issues before us and it hasn't been an issue there.

Are Norwegians as litigious as Irish?

unkel

No. No one in Europe claims like the Irish.

DrPhilG

I'm currently stuck with my current insurer indefinitely. I had a BS claim 2 years ago that ended up with nearly €11k of a claim which means most insurers won't touch me.

And my wife has an open claim dating back nearly 5 years which means that even without my own claim, I can't move insurer without dropping her off the policy.

Her claim is on an old Setanta van insurance policy so I have no idea when that will be closed.

cruizer101

Bit off topic but in relation to tripping over the cable the manufacturers would be better making them a brighter colour. At night-time a black cable could easily go unseen and result in trip.
Now don't get me wrong I do think people have a responsibility to watch out for themselves but the courts don't always see it that way.

cros13

unkel wrote: »

No. No one in Europe claims like the Irish.

Heavens help us if we ever got into Privathaftpflichtversicherung (Private Liability Insurance) and Rechtschutzversicherung (Legal Insurance) like the germans.

The horrified expression on a germans face if you suggested things like cycling in public without your Haftpflichtversicherung policy in your bag in triplicate ("wenn sie bei einem unfall getötet werden und es ist ihre schuld, die versicherung können die anderen beteiligt behaupten?").

cruizer101 wrote: »

in relation to tripping over the cable the manufacturers would be better making them a brighter colour.

The BMW one is neon blue. And self-coiling so it's often up off the pavement.

bk

Well their is the case of the "lady" who tripped and fell while walking on the boardwalk (timber sleepers) in Glendalough. District court awarded her €40,000 :eek:

Fortunately the High Court overturned the ruling, basically saying that she was responsible for looking where she was walking and watching for trip hazards

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

Heavens help us if we ever got into Privathaftpflichtversicherung (Private Liability Insurance) and Rechtschutzversicherung (Legal Insurance) like the germans.

Both of these cost a pittance (think €30 each or so per year) and everybody has them.

Why so cheap? Because a typical hurt knee with 3 stitches claim costs medical expenses + zero over there. Here it is medical expenses + €50,000 for "personal injuries" :rolleyes: shure all the doctors and lawyers have to take their share out of that :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

cros13

unkel wrote: »

Both of these cost a pittance (think €30 each or so per year) and everybody has them.

Gone up in price quite a bit, my last policy was €79 and €110 respectively. A lot of complaints about claims being too high from the insurers... doesn't sound familiar at all.