Replacement Index - 5 Stars and all that

patsy_mccabe

I thought I'd start this thread on how ICBF calculate the Replacement Value for Suckler Cows.
I went on the BDGP training day and the Teagasc people were saying you should go and buy dairy x limousin heifers as these will have milk and it's all about milk. But all the farmers there were saying, no way, you'd loose all the good beef breeding built up over the years.
Well, milk only makes up 18%, fertility 23% etc. All the values are below.


ICBF - August 2015
The Replacement Index is now expressed as profit per calf of each daughter of a bull retained for breeding. Therefore, there is now more emphasis on key maternal traits such as milk and fertility.


From;
https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=3811


Just looking at 2 well known bull in AI, the saler Rio €178 and (5 Stars) and the Charolais CF52 -€13 (1 Star)

Milk
Rio €33.......CF52 -€43

Calving Interval
Rio €20.......CF52 -€32

So a difference of €128 alone on just those 2 things, milk and fertility.

charolais0153

How can they know what they are eating

blue5000

charolais0153 wrote: »

How can they know what they are eating

I reckon that's got from all the relatives of an animal that were tested in Tully.

Count Mondego

I think milk is over rated. One big simental cow I have had twins nearly two years ago so we took one of the heifers off her. She was reared on foster milk for six weeks and let out into a field. At eight months she looked worse than her sister, but from then on she has passed her out.

Never wrestle with pigs

Notting like milk to put on KGs IMO but no point in thinking you are going to get u grade nice calves off dairy stock. I think second or third generation off the dairy stock is where one of the best cows is.

Milk and fertility very strong as a base and you won't go to wrong.

99nsr125

What about British Fresian x Limousine or Simmental x Limousine

Not our system, price and shape is important to us
Plus dealing with reliable sellers/buyers

Who2

99nsr125 wrote: »

What about British Fresian x Limousine or Simmental x Limousine

Not our system, price and shape is important to us
Plus dealing with reliable sellers/buyers

Have a few here but you need to put a real muscly bull on them. I've a few second generation off them aswell and they are a bit more presentable looking.

Donegalforever

I think that there is too much emphasis on using Limousin. The AI companies seem to be pushing the breed.

The problem is that generally where AI Limousin Bulls have good Docility they have very little milk. Where they have milk they are usually mad.

In my case, high Docility and high on milk is important.

Perhaps a Simmental heifer is a better bet:mad:

cacs

Donegalforever wrote: »

I think that there is too much emphasis on using Limousin. The AI companies seem to be pushing the breed.

The problem is that generally where AI Limousin Bulls have good Docility they have very little milk. Where they have milk they are usually mad.

In my case, high Docility and high on milk is important.

Perhaps a Simmental heifer is a better bet:mad:

I mainly have Lmx cross cows with not a sight of dairy in them, also very little milk. This year I am going to to put fleckveih straws into my most shapy cows. Might breed the perfect replacement. Colour shape milk docility

tanko

cathal irwin wrote: »

I mainly have Lmx cross cows with not a sight of dairy in them, also very little milk. This year I am going to to put fleckveih straws into my most shapy cows. Might breed the perfect replacement. Colour shape milk docility

Where are you going to get those straws?

cacs

tanko wrote: »

Where are you going to get those straws?

I was talking to a man from cork the last day. He sells them to mainly the dairy lads. He said buy German bulls and not Austrian. The Austrian are more finely boned and closer to Fr from a shape point of view. The German he said are more beefy. He was recommended a bull winsler.


https://www.donedeal.ie/dairycattle-for-sale/fleckvieh-semen-for-sale/13795530

patsy_mccabe

Anyone here cross Canadian Angus with Limousin? Probably too small to cross to a Charolais terminal bull, but should be an nice cow all the same.

tanko

That's interesting, are you in the genomics scheme, would those Bulls qualify for it?

charolais0153

Why not use the simple simmental. I honestly don't get the wild limousine thing anymore. They are definitely more difficult to handle than anything that was bucked reared but that goes for charolais and simmentals as well IMO. KISS Limousin cow and charolais bull, a winner every time imo

cacs

charolais0153 wrote: »

Why not use the simple simmental. I honestly don't get the wild limousine thing anymore. They are definitely more difficult to handle than anything that was bucked reared but that goes for charolais and simmentals as well IMO. KISS Limousin cow and charolais bull, a winner every time imo

Your bang on the money. Limousine Simmental great cross. I notice that the milk is leaving the Simmental they seem to becoming a more terminal breed. But bovea and progressive have a high milk yielding sim bull. You are correct about the docility of the Lim ours are as quite as lambs. I suppose from a milk point of view I want I don't want good results i want great results I think by crossing dairy back into beef cows I might get that. I don't want anything with Ho or Fr in it. It's very hard to breed out the black and Ho frame is not something that want. When I take all that and mix up Fleckveih seems to ticking all the boxes. I have been buying in the best incalf heifers that I could find for the last four years and I have had enough. Honestly not one of them have been as good as home bred ones. They all have their faults and it doesn't become obvious until you have them. I am not going to list their faults. If I have a home rated cow and I know her history I can bred the best possible replacement with the right bull. All I need her to do is come with a heifer.
A purebred breeder said to me once a heard cannot be be bought it can only be bred

Tyson Lannister

I bought some limo heifers off brfr cows,
I put Parthenaise bull Vulain on them. I now have 5 star heifers on the ground from this cross and hoping they will bring muscle in their calves coupled with good calving abilities.

croot

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Anyone here cross Canadian Angus with Limousin? Probably too small to cross to a Charolais terminal bull, but should be an nice cow all the same.

I have a few ZLL heifers off ch, lim and part cows. Here's one of the autumn calves with her mother taken a few weeks ago. The calf was around 10 weeks or so at the time.

Bellview

patsy_mccabe wrote:

Anyone here cross Canadian Angus with Limousin? Probably too small to cross to a Charolais terminal bull, but should be an nice cow all the same.

Patsy assume you are on the red angus rather than black. A neighbour at home goes red angus then lim every second bull and works for colour and poll.

There is a view that the Canadian angus are bigger .. which some are but the Scottish angus are now probably more terminal than Canadian... even the Scots recognise this and are currently importing some us bloodlines to try get some shape back...although that will not suit all suckler folks.

patsy_mccabe

cathal irwin wrote: »

I mainly have Lmx cross cows with not a sight of dairy in them, also very little milk. This year I am going to to put fleckveih straws into my most shapy cows. Might breed the perfect replacement. Colour shape milk docility

This is how the fleckveih bulls look like in their working clothes;
https://www.donedeal.ie/beefcattle-for-sale/fleckvieh-bull/13992234

Never wrestle with pigs

Not any better than a fr bull.

cacs

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

This is how the fleckveih bulls look like in their working clothes;
https://www.donedeal.ie/beefcattle-for-sale/fleckvieh-bull/13992234

It's obvious they are bucket reared calfs with no shape or future in Irish beef. But if you want to find poor cattle you will find examples of them in all breeds. But like wise there are good quality cattle in most breeds also. I have seen a few pb fleckveih cows and honestly I would be delighted to have in my herd. Great shape with milk. It's a personal preference I am going to give it a shot this year on on a few cows. I think I can only gain from it. I seen an article Ger Dineen contributed to in the farmers journal and was introducing fleckveih into his heard. Look what he has achieved weaning weights of plus 1.60 kg / day average and that's the key average bulls hitting over 400 kg dead weight at 14 months. His focus is strong maternal genetics and good grass land management. I think we all could take something from these top performing farmers

patsy_mccabe

I'm not knocking the idea of the fleckveih. I saw them at the ploughing and liked the look of them. I'd be more inclined to try them as a cross of beefy sucklers than going out and buying pointy lim x Holstein heifers.

cacs

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I'm not knocking the idea of the fleckveih. I saw them at the ploughing and liked the look of them. I'd be more inclined to try them as a cross of beefy sucklers than going out and buying pointy lim x Holstein heifers.

I am with you 100%. I plan on crossing them to by lowest milk best shaped beefy cow

blue5000

Fleckveih wouldn't be my choice anyway. They grow too big as cows, yes the milk might be there but I can't see them weaning 60% of their liveweight without a lot of creep feed. What will you do with the bull calves?

ICBF have completely ignored feed efficiency, margins are gone very tight in beef, a few extra % fce could make a big difference finishing cattle.

cacs

blue5000 wrote: »

Fleckveih wouldn't be my choice anyway. They grow too big as cows, yes the milk might be there but I can't see them weaning 60% of their liveweight without a lot of creep feed. What will you do with the bull calves?

ICBF have completely ignored feed efficiency, margins are gone very tight in beef, a few extra % fce could make a big difference finishing cattle.

Now there's an angle I had not thought about and by the sounds of it you know what your talking about. What would you cross back in lmx cows with no dairy in them to breed milk back. In my mind if you say no to fleckveih it would have to be high milk rated sim bull

milligan2

cathal irwin wrote: »

Now there's an angle I had not thought about and by the sounds of it you know what your talking about. What would you cross back in lmx cows with no dairy in them to breed milk back. In my mind if you say no to fleckveih it would have to be high milk rated sim bull

Would you try ON DIT?he is one of the top rated lim bulls for milk and will give you great beefy bulls as well.His milk figures would be as good as most Simms and his Bulls would be easier to finish.