Export a panel van to re-import as a camper

Shoog

Hi all,
Long time since I posted here but I need some guidance on how to proceed with a 94 VW T4 conversion.
I have already put in windows, a bed/seating, a cupboard, a kitchen with two ring hob and sink and a new floor. Van has passed its DOE and I thought I was on the home run.
I had originally thought about trying to register it as a private vehicle and simply take the hit on the Tax and insurance, but my investigations reveal that unlike in almost all the rest of Europe - there are no such policies available in Ireland.
So next I thought about running it as a "living van" and using my qualifications as an environmental scientist to declare myself a self employed environmental consultant. However the cheapest quote I got was from InsureMyVan and was €890.00. At this price I would need to run the van as my primary vehicle which would place me in a legal grey area and make the disk a nice little window dressing of no material value.
I got a nice quote for the van as a camper with FirstDirect (€300) but obviously I would need to get it reclassified. I approached the Motorcamper club of Ireland and all I can say is rude and unhelpful. They wouldn't even clarify a simple ambiguity in their information pack. Waste of time.
I really only want to run the van as a camper for me and my wife so all told this is the only option available to me.

So I spoke to a local SQI about a conversion report and he said (to paraphrase his words) "at one time a simple statement from him would have satisfied the VRT, but now they want fire, safety and crash test paperwork on all components that have gone into the van". Given that this is a hand build with custom cabinetry this is simply impossible to satisfy.

However it seems that a reregistration of a competently carried out conversion is a relative formality in the UK. So my final idea is to transfer the vans documents into the name of a friend in the North, send off the reclassification documents to Swansea DVLA, and then import it back into the South as a legally recognized camper and then pay the VRT on it as an import. All without the van moving an inch.
The hassle would and cost of VRT would be more than rewarded in just two years given the stupid rate of insurance been asked at the moment.

My question is has anyone ever tried this and if so what snags did they encounter. I am about two grand in at the moment and if all else fails I can probably recoup much of this by selling it to a friend in the North.

Stephen

Shoog

I am going to answer my own question by refering to this:



"• a filled in application form V55/4 (for new vehicles) or V55/5 (for used vehicles)
• £55 registration fee (cheques or postal orders made payable to DVLA Swansea)
• fee for the vehicle tax (cheques or postal orders made payable to DVLA Swansea)
• a current British Insurance certificate or cover note –
• the foreign registration document and any other papers relating to the vehicle
• evidence showing the date the vehicle was collected (normally the invoice from the supplier)
• evidence of type approval (please see below)
• a current British MOT test certificate (if applicable)
• the appropriate HM Revenue and Customs form (please see attached leaflet INF 106)
• a ‘Declaration that a vehicle is new’ form V267 (if applicable)
• documentation confirming your name and address

Documentation confirming your name must be one of the following:
• current DVLA paper/photocard driving licence
• United Kingdom or European Union or foreign passport
• marriage certificate
• decree nisi or absolute
• birth certificate
Documentation confirming your address must be one of the following:
• utility bill valid within the last three months e.g. gas, electricity, water, landline telephone
• Bank or Building society statement valid within the last three months
• NHS medical card
• council tax bill for current year"

So the most significant document would be insurance - which seems to make this strategy impractical.


I had correspondence from another SQI and his opinion was more encouraging up to a point:

" can carry out your SQI report which is a declaration of conversion. It costs 130 + vat. The criteria is cooking equipment, bed, storage area, table. If gas you need cert for installation. The height of living space has to be 1.8m. Revenue also require pictures to verify. "

It seems that the whole 1.8m height has re-emerged as a serious issue regarding VRT - or is he simply mistaken ?

Stephen

Moomat

Yep, height is back.

Pretty comprehensive run down of the changes on this blog http://bluetdi.blogspot.ie/2011/06/irish-camper-van-status.html

Did First Direct offer you insurance with less than 1.8m?

Shoog

They offered me it on a camper - and if its not reclassified then its not considered a camper.

However what I want to see is if anyone has actually got a letter of refusal based upon the 1.8m rule, without it we are guessing. It seems to me that the Blue TDI blog has no real new information which is definitive about this.

I think it is fairly certain that Carol Nash would offer a quote on a registered VW Camper (only VW's) and make no specific stipulation on height.

If the Irish Motorcamper club is still offering insurance on campers with less than 1.8m height and the revenue are insisting on 1.8m - does that mean that they are offering insurance on none registered campers. My brief (and unpleasant) interaction with them offered no clarity and it seems they wanted it that way.

I suspect I am going to have to contact the VRT for specific clarification.


Stephen

Moomat

Shoog wrote: »

However what I want to see is if anyone has actually got a letter of refusal based upon the 1.8m rule, without it we are guessing.

I was refused on that basis.

See this thread for more info http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91834105

Shoog

Moomat wrote: »

I was refused on that basis.

See this thread for more info http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91834105

I don't see how it is possible for the revenue to "find an interpretation of the EU rules" which require a minimal head height - since there is no mention of dimensions within the specific EU reg. 678/2011
It seems to me they are chancing it assuming that no one will push the issue. I want to get them to make a specific statement of how their decision is supported by either EU or domestic law. I will draft a letter and if they specifically state the basis of the "interpretation" I will share it and see if there is a basis for a complaint.

Stephen

spaceHopper

I think you would be allowed have a rear kitchen, what they don't want is a pull out kitchen where you have a commercial van with a cooker built into a box in the back that you use from outside. They probably get chancers every day of the week. If you do a proper conversion where nothing can be taken out and everything can be used from inside. I've a coach built camper with a kitchen in the back, it allows me room to fit a surf board down the length of the van when I'm driving or sleeping.

Moomat

spaceHopper wrote: »

They probably get chancers every day of the week. If you do a proper conversion where nothing can be taken out and everything can be used from inside.

It shouldn't be up to Revenue, at the VRT stage, to determine who is a "chancer". Such a subjective analysis if destined to penalise genuine applicants.
If you have the requirements, you should get the classification. Let someone else do the enforcement while the vehicles are in use and punish heavily if they are being used without the equipment that entitles them to the classification.

spaceHopper

Moomat wrote: »

It shouldn't be up to Revenue, at the VRT stage, to determine who is a "chancer". Such a subjective analysis if destined to penalise genuine applicants.
If you have the requirements, you should get the classification. Let someone else do the enforcement while the vehicles are in use and punish heavily if they are being used without the equipment that entitles them to the classification.

It's the chancers fault that they had to make rules that don't suit you. It's much easier and cheaper for them to stop it early on in the process. It's the same with insurance companies, they waste so much time and money on small time trades men who try their luck with 108 road tax an 350 ish insurance.

The blue TDI in the blog is a great van, but it's suited to warm sunny days great in France or Morocco but not Ireland.

Moomat

spaceHopper wrote: »

It's the chancers fault that they had to make rules that don't suit you. It's much easier and cheaper for them to stop it early on in the process. It's the same with insurance companies, they waste so much time and money on small time trades men who try their luck with 108 road tax an 350 ish insurance.

The blue TDI in the blog is a great van, but it's suited to warm sunny days great in France or Morocco but not Ireland.

I don't have any issue with weeding out chancers. It's Revenue's blunt instrument approach that is wrong and used at the wrong time. Who are they to say that one conversion is holier than another.

Shoog

I am going to ask some of the commercial camper converters if they are getting low roof conversions accepted to see if the revenue are discriminating against home builds. Will let you all know. If I send a letter to the VRT I want to make it difficult for them to explicitly say they only accept high roof conversions.

Stephen

Moomat

Keep us updated.

I think there angle will be the ability to live in it rather than an exact height.

Best of luck!

Shoog

I just had confirmed with one of the private commercial converters that they have not had issue with the height rule since 2011. They say they have an ongoing relationship with rosslare and the Irish Motorcamper club.
I got another reply to the same effect from another converter.
So if they site head height as an issue they are applying their rules inconsistently.

Stephen

spaceHopper

You will probably get issues with the insurance, if you can convince somebody like Dolmen you'll be ok but I wouldn't go any further till you know you will have cover.

Shoog

From what I am learning, if people who have met all the requirements (which doesn't include a high roof) are getting refused - then they are not pushing back hard enough on the revenue. The revenue are been chancers and they know full well that a challenge to an over-zeolous interpretation of the EU rules will be overturned. I would take note of any missing deficiencies in the conversion which do not meet the basic standards - rectify and appeal.

Dolmen are not the only insurance option so the closed little club they operate should be no impediment to going forward.

Stephen

Shoog

Ok folks I wrote to the revenue and got this reply;

"Stephen,
I refer to your mail on this matter. I’m replying separately in the interests of data security.
The criteria relating to Motor caravan classification are published in detail on the Revenue website at: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vehicle-conversions.html#section7
Revenue does not currently specify a minimum internal height but this is a matter that was the subject of consideration in the recent past and may be re-introduced at some future date.
Whereas I can outline the Revenue position to you on this matter I would advise you to seek similar confirmation from your local Motor Tax office, see attached for contact details.
Should your SQI require any further clarification on this matter you can refer him to me at 053 9161200.
Regards"

The bit about asking your local tax office is somewhat bizarre since they should know perfectly well that they are the last word on all decisions regarding campers and VRT. Arse covering of the finest degree.

So there you have it - since 2011 there has been no height restriction on campers.

Stephen