public/ private road.

restive

I live on a cul-de-sac. Traditionally the council has maintained the road as far as the last house in the village even raising it during the 1990s. The remaining bohereen is classed as private and the responsibility of the villagers including me. This seems reasonable to me. However the council have now said according to their maps the public road now ends further out the village, which leaves some occupied houses on what the now classify as a private road. This seems absurd to me and when I questioned them about it they referred to there maps and mentioned their budget. What can be done about this?

Muckit

Can u remember a time when the road was maintained by the council?

I would be very slow to take on any maintenance of any part of the road. What happens if l, for example, drive in your village? I don't know the area and what part is CC or private. I damage my car suspension, or worse still get a very bad personal injury (all this water really ravelled the road and couldn't see pothole!!) Who do l follow?

I think this is one for your local TD. You need to get a name of the county council engineer with responsibility for the roads in your area. This isnt one for the lad in the van leaning on the shovel. Keep them on side and explain your case. You need to put a face to the council or you'll never pin them down to sort things out. Might be more clout if ye go as a group to local td clinic and keep a bit of presure on, in a nice way.

Hope u get sorted.

Bass Reeves

Restive first off you need to check if council are right. Engineers for County Councils often think they are Gods and go on power ego trips. If road was previously maintained by them then AFAIK they are responsible. Since he downturn council engineers are always using budgets as an excuse to ombudsman for the public service.

Do not carry out any maintenance work on the disputed road they were the last one to maintain it so leave the responsibility with them. TD and Local councilors often are afraid to take on these engineers as it is a case you scratch mine and I will scratch yours. Get a delegation from the village with mixed cross party support and fo to different local elected reps and let hem know where the locals stand.

However if the road is a public road just go to the Ombudsmas. Have a chat with the Ombudsman service anyway. I have learned one thing dealing with Council etc nice guys get nowhere

recedite

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If road was previously maintained by them then AFAIK they are responsible.

That won't make any difference, they can decide to discontinue maintaining it. Just the same as when a new estate is built the council can decide to take it over if the developer is nice to them. Or they can decide not to.

I've also seen one where a cute hoor gradually bought up a few houses along a cul de sac boreen until he owned them all. Then got the road redesignated as private and put up a gate on it. And then applied for re-zoning for the whole lot.
There is no hard and fast rule. You're into politicking, and who you know, and lobbying and brown envelopes and all that $hite.

freedominacup

recedite wrote: »

That won't make any difference, they can decide to discontinue maintaining it. Just the same as when a new estate is built the council can decide to take it over if the developer is nice to them. Or they can decide not to.

I don't think they can decide to discontinue maintaining a public road. They certainly don't take estates in hand because the developer is a nice fella. Strict criteria for taking estates in hand. All services must be correct. Developers have to lodge a substantial bond before construction commences to cover services installation.

RightTurnClyde

As Free says there's a strict process in place on how and when a council take over the running of an estate.
The OP needs to contact his local TD, there's obviously a ganger or an engineer trying to cut costs. Don't do any work on the roads yourselves as you're leaving yourselves liable to any injuries or accidents that might happen on the road.

The councils are obviously stuck for money. I know our council is going through files back 8 yrs checking development fees and commencement notice fees and sending out bills if there is no record of payment or payment is incorrect. I know of 2 people that have had to pay the commencement charges (€150) again because of mislaid receipts from more than 5 yrs ago.

rangler1

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

As Free says there's a strict process in place on how and when a council take over the running of an estate.
The OP needs to contact his local TD, there's obviously a ganger or an engineer trying to cut costs. Don't do any work on the roads yourselves as you're leaving yourselves liable to any injuries or accidents that might happen on the road.

The councils are obviously stuck for money. I know our council is going through files back 8 yrs checking development fees and commencement notice fees and sending out bills if there is no record of payment or payment is incorrect. I know of 2 people that have had to pay the commencement charges (€150) again because of mislaid receipts from more than 5 yrs ago.

Just like I expected, we're going to be paying the public service more for less services.....just great

recedite

freedominacup wrote: »

I don't think they can decide to discontinue maintaining a public road.

They can just say its considered a private road from now on and just stop maintaining it. Isn't that what the OP is on about?
I'm just saying the basis for that decision is open to interpretation and influence. If there is only one family living along the stretch of road, its easy to say its a private driveway and the owner should pay to maintain it themselves.
If there are 3 families, but they are all cousins, its not so simple.
If two are cousins, and the third is somebody who bought a house from the cousins, did they buy a house on a private lane or on a public road? Did it become a public road after they bought the house?

Normally people want to have the council pay for maintenance, but if they want to put up a gate, or extinguish a right of way, or develop the land, they might want it designated as a private road.

Bass Reeves

recedite wrote: »

I've also seen one where a cute hoor gradually bought up a few houses along a cul de sac boreen until he owned them all. Then got the road redesignated as private and put up a gate on it. And then applied for re-zoning for the whole lot.

This would totall have been depoendent on a few things. If this boreen was being used by the public to access maybe another road or a beach it would have been harder for him to close it. More than likly one of the house owners owned the road and the rest had ROW or else it was held as a common title by the house owners. However there must have been no objections if he got away clear and free.

recedite wrote: »

They can just say its considered a private road from now on and just stop maintaining it. Isn't that what the OP is on about?
I'm just saying the basis for that decision is open to interpretation and influence. If there is only one family living along the stretch of road, its easy to say its a private driveway and the owner should pay to maintain it themselves.
If there are 3 families, but they are all cousins, its not so simple.
If two are cousins, and the third is somebody who bought a house from the cousins, did they buy a house on a private lane or on a public road? Did it become a public road after they bought the house?

Normally people want to have the council pay for maintenance, but if they want to put up a gate, or extinguish a right of way, or develop the land, they might want it designated as a private road.

IMO they cannot. It is realy dependent on whether they maintained it or just resurfaced it once. If they maintained it after resurfacing it, or if the resurfaced it more than once then IMO they are responsible. There was rural road scheme which CoCouncils had funds to do up what were virtually private roadaws which serviced muliple houses. However this was a one off action. If the Council carried out the action more than once they have virtually made the road a public road.

Like I posted orginally Council engineers and officals often go on ego trips. I had one such incident and had to go to the Ombudsman for the public service to sort. Even after winning and giving an action date. I had to go back again to the Ombudsman to get it enforced. Public officials often make decision taht are totally outside there remit. I would push this at a level above this engineer and at both political and Ombudsmans level. Often politician will not take on a public offical if they need him doqwn the line.

recedite

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There was rural road scheme which CoCouncils had funds to do up what were virtually private roadaws which serviced muliple houses. However this was a one off action. If the Council carried out the action more than once they have virtually made the road a public road.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that "virtually" is not a very precise term. And so the whole thing is subject to local politics, which you are also saying.

Bass Reeves

recedite wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that "virtually" is not a very precise term. And so the whole thing is subject to local politics, which you are also saying.

This is the big mistake individuals make when daeling with Co Councils. They tend to go to a local or national politician. In some cases you are better dealing with the ombudsman for the PS. Often local politician will not want to step on the toes of Local Authority engineers/managers. You often have to put the boot in youself.

Saw this in my case and another case. The other case was a untarred road that was a public road. It was a cul de sac and has no houses after about 200 yards. Local Engineer refused to maintain it. Farmer went to local politicians. Engineer told politicians it was not a public road even though it was marked on map. Politician wanted to know nothing about it as this engineer was fairly powerful. The farmer was afraid to go to ombudsman in case it would effect him down the line. It was the exact same engineer I had problems with.

Paddysniper

Hello.
Is there a way to know for sure if a road is private or council?

Bass Reeves

Paddysniper wrote: »

Hello.
Is there a way to know for sure if a road is private or council?

There is a road map in each council road section showing all public roads , where they start a discussion end

CloughCasey1

Our road was private until i plagued and pestered and battled and fought and bitched and moaned and bitched and moaned and plagued and pestered some more. Then i repeated that process all over again and a few weeks before the local elections got a shiny yield right of way sign at head of road and a 10ft tar chips job to me front gate. ☺☺☺

J.O. Farmer

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Our road was private until i plagued and pestered and battled and fought and bitched and moaned and bitched and moaned and plagued and pestered some more. Then i repeated that process all over again and a few weeks before the local elections got a shiny yield right of way sign at head of road and a 10ft tar chips job to me front gate. ☺☺☺

So what you're saying is now is the time to start looking. I think those elections must be due in the next year or so. In fact with kennys announcement could the local TD be the person to ask for a quick result. We all know politicians prefer to canvass in the summer.

recedite

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is a road map in each council road section showing all public roads , where they start a discussion end

Are you sure this map, if it exists, isn't just a map of all the roads the council maintains?
Which may well be the same thing, but the question is which came first, in a chicken or the egg kinda way.

pedigree 6

If it's a private road could you set up a toll booth on it?

Not sure who'd want to use it though!:pac:

Bass Reeves

recedite wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is a road map in each council road section showing all public roads , where they start a discussion end

Are you sure this map, if it exists, isn't just a map of all the roads the council maintains?
Which may well be the same thing, but the question is which came first, in a chicken or the egg kinda way.

No the Council's have to have a list of all roads that it has under it care. I know of at least one road that an engineer denied was a public road but it was on the public road map.

Nekarsulm

The Council can publish a "Notice of abandonment"

http://www.cavancoco.ie/Default.aspx?StructureID_str=255&guid=1994

Bass Reeves

Nekarsulm wrote: »

The Council can publish a "Notice of abandonment"

http://www.cavancoco.ie/Default.aspx?StructureID_str=255&guid=1994

If you read that notice it is a section of road that is not used because of a road realignment. It would be unusual to abandon other roads. Usually roads abandoned are those that may be isolated at one end after realignment and they are often transferred to an individual that has land either side or if just off the realigned road to the land house owner adjacent. Saw a couple bits like this that are used for storage of bales or as outwintering pads for a round feeder. If a road is abandoned it has to be transfered into another's care. The council has to transfer its responsibility. It is just like there is an owner of a ROW who is responsible to upkeep it.

Paddysniper

Thanks for the replies.
I've found some paperwork stating that it is a council road.
The local councillor is trying to fob me off saying the engineer is looking into it and in the mean time the potholes will be filled.
The whole road needs resurfacing not potholes filled.

What are the chances of getting anything done with the road do ye think?

Bass Reeves

Paddysniper wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.
I've found some paperwork stating that it is a council road.
The local councillor is trying to fob me off saying the engineer is looking into it and in the mean time the potholes will be filled.
The whole road needs resurfacing not potholes filled.

What are the chances of getting anything done with the road do ye think?

Councillors and engineers are often in cahoots with each other. Often it a case of you rub my back and I rub yours. If you get nowhere I go to the ombudsmans for the public service it just a few letters. However you have to write to head road engineer first if he dose not replay after 2-3 weeks contact the ombudsman or if he puts it on the long finger.

Paddysniper

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Councillors and engineers are often in cahoots with each other. Often it a case of you rub my back and I rub yours. If you get nowhere I go to the ombudsmans for the public service it just a few letters. However you have to write to head road engineer first if he dose not replay after 2-3 weeks contact the ombudsman or if he puts it on the long finger.

You said it all there about being in cahoots.
Councillor was telling me the engineer had trouble finding out if it is a council road, I burst his bubble with my proof.
He said if it was a council road there'd be a stake with a number on it at the end of the road.
That's great to know where and how to go further with it, thank you!