Summons driving without a licence

Lucy Anne

I was stopped by a Garda recently and the tax was out. Asked to produce licence and insurance details in ten days. Got home and saw my licence was out by three weeks.

Was sick at the time so only option was to send off for another and didn't have it back within the ten days. Went and explained the situation at the station and showed the insurance cert. Today I get a summons so am up in court on three charges.

1 - Driving without a licence.
2 - Failure to produce licence on the spot.
3 - Failure to produce licence within ten days.

Am worried now and wondering what kind of penalty I could be looking at and whether there's anything I can do in advance of the case like talk to this Garda, but maybe it's too late for that now. Has anyone else been through the same thing? I have no previous convictions of any type.

biko

These things pretty much automatically goes to court.
Bring both licences with you and explain your situation to the judge.

HanaleiJ5N

I'm no expert on these things by any means but it depends, mainly on the judge and how far the tax was out. Turn up, explain the circumstances honestly to the judge, bring proof that everything is now in order and just in case you might even consider turning up with a sum of money ready to donate to the poor box. Given your lack of prior, and provided you weren't taking the piss in terms of how far out the tax was, you have a reasonable chance of coming out of this unscathed. Again though, depends.

I'd ask this question over on the legal discussion forum!

Atlantic Dawn

First things you need to do are get the car taxed. Was the car out of tax for weeks or months? If it was only a few weeks the judge might let that one go.

Lucy Anne

Thanks guys. It's such a stupid thing to be up for, just an oversight with the licence on my part. Wondering how it works in court, will the tax thing become pat of it, I got a fine in the post and paid it. It was two months out. I thought they would just focus on the summonses they sent about the licence but maybe the tax will come into it too! The legal discussions area is a good idea, it's just all the old threads about traffic infringements seem to be posted here.

partyguinness

HanaleiJ5N wrote: »

I'm no expert on these things by any means but it depends, mainly on the judge and how far the tax was out. Turn up, explain the circumstances honestly to the judge, bring proof that everything is now in order and just in case I'd even consider turning up with a sum of money ready to donate to the poor box. Given your lack of prior, and provided you weren't taking the piss in terms of how far out the tax was, you have a reasonable chance of coming out of this unscathed. Again though, depends.

I'd ask this question over on the legal discussion forum!

Yeah this is pretty much all you can do.

But I would also make a point of speaking to the Garda before hand and showing him the papers and explaining it again and if he is feeling generous he may even withdraw it.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

No tax and out of date driving licence. I would make sure you had/have insurance.

Special Circumstances

The current practice is a waste of court time on the licence front IMHO.

Driving with an expired licence is like turning up for holidays with an expired passport. It's a silly piece of forgetfulness unless there is some ulterior motive.

A fine for missing the first "producing" period and an extended second "produce" period and a court date if it transpires that you are not entitled to a new/renewed licence etc.

Straight to court for the sake of bureaucracy is crazy, you'd swear twas something more than a rubber stamp exercise for most people to get a licence.

Lucy Anne

That's a relief - you guys think I'll get off. When I was explaining all in the Garda station later, the lads on duty, once they heard it was the traffic core who stopped me didn't hold out much hope of it not going to court. Apparently they love sending summonses, so they might be hardcore about prosecuting too.

Lucy Anne

Of course I have insurance and also had it at the time. I'm not a criminal!

pippip

Lucy Anne wrote: »

Of course I have insurance and also had it at the time. I'm not a criminal!

If your licence was out of date then you may not have had valid insurance.

partyguinness

Lucy Anne wrote: »

Of course I have insurance and also had it at the time. I'm not a criminal!

Well.....without a valid licence or tax you are equally breaking the law.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

There is no need to be so defensive. I was merely giving you advice from a recent experience in court.

While it is silly that an out of date driving licence can get you a court appearance, you also had no road tax (for whatever reason).

Lucy Anne wrote: »

Of course I have insurance and also had it at the time. I'm not a criminal!

Special Circumstances

pippip wrote: »

If your licence was out of date then you may not have had valid insurance.

It would seem wrong (and unlikely given the stats) that the minimum required 3rd party insurance could be cancelled for a simple honest piece of forgetfulness- you'd see a lot of unaccompanied drivers in jail or disqualified if this was case for even 5% of insurers.

You do have a point though - it would be best to check in this case.

Lucy Anne

Lucy Anne wrote: »

I was stopped by a Garda recently and the tax was out...................

Lucy Anne wrote: »

Of course I have insurance and also had it at the time. I'm not a criminal!

Well ....

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_tax_rates.html

Not only are you obliged by law to pay motor tax to drive your vehicle, you are also required to display evidence that you have paid (that is, a current tax disc) on the windscreen of your vehicle. Failure to display a current tax disc on your vehicle is considered a motoring offence and will result in a €60 fixed-charge fine issued by a traffic warden or a Garda.

Lucy Anne

Driving without insurance is seen as a far bigger crime than the other two you mention, especially given the extenuating circumstances - licence out just a few weeks and tax pretty much the same. Forgetting to renew my licence does not make me a criminal, at least not by my reckoning and I'm sure most people would agree with that.

Special Circumstances

Lucy Anne wrote: »

Forgetting to renew my licence does not make me a criminal, at least not by my reckoning and I'm sure most people would agree with that.

You're wasting your time arguing that with some of the characters here. It's up there with parking without a disc because you'll only be 10minutes or something in my opinion.

Check your insurance though. The vast majority of policies for full Irish licence drivers used to say "insured if you currently have a valid licence for the class of vehicle, or have previously held one and you are not disqualified or otherwise prevented from obtaining a licence" or some thing to that effect.

Which was reasonable and fair.

Some insurers have sharper practice around it unfortunately.

Eamondomc

Lucy Anne wrote: »

Driving without insurance is seen as a far bigger crime than the other two you mention, especially given the extenuating circumstances - licence out just a few weeks and tax pretty much the same. Forgetting to renew my licence does not make me a criminal, at least not by my reckoning and I'm sure most people would agree with that.

Well I would anyway LA.
You mention only 3 summonses in your op, these are the only ones you will have to answer, if insurance or tax were to be mentioned or dealt with you would have received separate summons for them. Now that you have renewed your licence I would expect a minimal fine at most for the offence and if the judge is understanding, maybe just a caution.

degsie

Any reasonable judge will go easy on you, just make sure you have ALL the correct documentation with you on the day.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

@eamondomc, the judge will most likely ask the OP had no car tax (she hasn't mentioned why) and also why she had no valid licence (she forgot to renew it - fair enough). The judge may decide to ask if she had car insurance and/or and NCT to determine her sentence. i.e. whether she appears to have 'genuinely' forgot or was chancing her arm.

I sat through hours of these type of summons recently - painful stuff and a complete waste of the courts time IMHO. Most got a fine of a few hundred euros, I don't recall the judge mention penalty points but are these automatic if you get any sort of fine?

Fred Swanson

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Eamondomc

Vaughn Millions Zoo wrote: »

@eamondomc, the judge will most likely ask the OP had no car tax (she hasn't mentioned why) and also why she had no valid licence (she forgot to renew it - fair enough). The judge may decide to ask if she had car insurance and/or and NCT to determine her sentence. i.e. whether she appears to have 'genuinely' forgot or was chancing her arm.

I sat through hours of these type of summons recently - painful stuff and a complete waste of the courts time IMHO. Most got a fine of a few hundred euros, I don't recall the judge mention penalty points but are these automatic if you get any sort of fine?

Your talking rot and scaremongering, only summons issued will be mentioned or considered.
If any issue is to be dealt with in court a summons must be issued. The judge can't just make a new charge there and then and fine for it.

Lucy Anne

Vaughn Millions Zoo wrote: »

@eamondomc, the judge will most likely ask the OP had no car tax (she hasn't mentioned why) and also why she had no valid licence (she forgot to renew it - fair enough). The judge may decide to ask if she had car insurance and/or and NCT to determine her sentence. i.e. whether she appears to have 'genuinely' forgot or was chancing her arm.

I sat through hours of these type of summons recently - painful stuff and a complete waste of the courts time IMHO. Most got a fine of a few hundred euros, I don't recall the judge mention penalty points but are these automatic if you get any sort of fine?

Yeah talk about scaremongering. I said at the begining that I produced my insurance cert if you'd bothered to read it. And your language gives it all away - "her sentence". Wouldn't you just love to see me being jailed, for pretty much nothing. How sad is that...

Much as it pains you, I'm here looking for practical advice not a load of holier than thou moralising.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Get a grip - there is no "rot or scaremongering" in my posts. I never stated the judge will issue a new charge.

The judge will try and determine her character based on her answers to his questions. His sentence will be determined on whether he or she believes it was a genuine mistake or not.

Eamondomc wrote: »

Your talking rot and scaremongering, only summons issued will be mentioned or considered.
If any issue is to be dealt with in court a summons must be issued. The judge can't just make a new charge there and then and fine for it.

"Holier thou moralising"? You asked for advice. I and other posters have giving you advice. You don't like the advice, that's fair enough. I gave you practical advice from my last visit to court.

Fyi you said you produced your insurance disc. You never mentioned if it was in date at the time, hence my question.

Best of luck OP.

Lucy Anne wrote: »

Yeah talk about scaremongering. I said at the begining that I produced my insurance cert if you'd bothered to read it. And your language gives it all away - "her sentence". Wouldn't you just love to see me being jailed, for pretty much nothing. How sad is that...

Much as it pains you, I'm here looking for practical advice not a load of holier than thou moralising.

biko

Cool the jets please

Special Circumstances

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Every insurance certificate says "Provided the insured holds a licence or has held a licence and is not disqualified from holding a licence"

An expired licence does not invalidate insurance.

Unfortunately the liberty terms now read differently "current valid licence only".

The insurance industry posters over in the insurance forum interpret the AXA terms as also revoking your insurance if you take out insurance while unknowingly having an expired licence.

If they are at it then there are more. Thread on their recently about someone with expired licence having their insurance cancelled when a claim came up, not just a refusal to pay out. Pretty much the kiss of death for ever getting insurance again!!

Very very sharp practice unless someone is legally or medically not fit for the road.


Edit, head over there and ask if you want, the insurance guys didn't like my tone when I asked what magical power the NDLSs rubber stamp has on somebodys driving...

Fred Swanson

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Lucy Anne

Lucy Anne wrote: »

................ Forgetting to renew my licence does not make me a criminal, at least not by my reckoning and I'm sure most people would agree with that.

You'll soon find out anyway, I wouldn't go to the court with that speech though

Lucy Anne

Augeo wrote: »

You'll soon find out anyway, I wouldn't go to the court with that speech though

Aren't you priceless! Thanks for taking the time to dole out your sarcasm, but as I said before it's constructive commentary I came here for.

Fred Swanson

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Special Circumstances

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Yeah this is the wording of the newer insurance policies:

These general exceptions apply to all
sections of this policy.
We will not provide cover for any of the
following.
1. Any accident, injury, loss, damage or
liability if the vehicle is being driven by
or used for a purpose not described in
the certificate of insurance.
2. We will not provide cover if the insured
person is entitled to claim or is covered
under any other policy.
3. We will not cover the driver unless;
a they hold a valid licence to drive the
vehicle; and
b they meet the conditions and any
limits of the driving licence.

As you say, I didn't think this was a get out clause for the third party stuff the insurance forum guys take this expired licence thing VERY seriously!

Isambard

the OP is only charged in relation to the out of date license.

Show the Judge that you have renewed it, apologise for your oversight and it's likely the case will be struck out.

All discussion on Tax and Insurance is not relevant.

Pkiernan

Isambard wrote: »

the OP is only charged in relation to the out of date license.

Show the Judge that you have renewed it, apologise for your oversight and it's likely the case will be struck out.

All discussion on Tax and Insurance is not relevant.

Also facing charge of not carrying license with her which is an offence.

Zurbaran

You'll do well to be out in 3.

jca

Isambard wrote: »

the OP is only charged in relation to the out of date license.

Show the Judge that you have renewed it, apologise for your oversight and it's likely the case will be struck out.

All discussion on Tax and Insurance is not relevant.

Exactly.

Supergurrier

*Clippity clop*

Arcade_Tryer

Lucy Anne wrote: »

Driving without insurance is seen as a far bigger crime than the other two you mention, especially given the extenuating circumstances - licence out just a few weeks and tax pretty much the same. Forgetting to renew my licence does not make me a criminal, at least not by my reckoning and I'm sure most people would agree with that.

And murder is a bigger crime than manslaughter.

In my view, not paying tax is equally as bad as not being insured. But as you say, insurance is the sacred cow and so the tax and lack of a licence probably won't look as bad relatively.

Atlantic Dawn

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

And murder is a bigger crime than manslaughter.

In my view, not paying tax is equally as bad as not being insured. But as you say, insurance is the sacred cow and so the tax and lack of a licence probably won't look as bad relatively.

Insurance is my number 1, if someone doesn't have this they should be as close to a man slaughter charge as possible for using a car on the road withouth it.

FishOnABike

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

And murder is a bigger crime than manslaughter.

In my view, not paying tax is equally as bad as not being insured. But as you say, insurance is the sacred cow and so the tax and lack of a licence probably won't look as bad relatively.

The law would disagree with you.

Not having / displaying tax is a fixed charge notice.

Not having insurance is a mandatory disqualification.

While not having / presenting your licence is an automatic curt appearance in the op's case where it was only a matter of an oversight of a 2 or 3 weeks and it was renewed immediately I would be surprised if it resulted in anything more than a small fine and possibly not even that provided the OP turns up in court and can show everything is in order. (New licence, old licence to show it was an oversight of a few weeks and just in case bring evidence of tax - including back tax paid, insurance and nct).

Car99

Wow , the girl asks for a bit of advise regarding a court appearance for a recently out of date licence and she's given the third degree about being insured and a run down on the scale of seriousness of various motoring offences. Good old motors forum never fails to get off topic .

OP don't worry , slight oversight on your part which is easily explained and could happen to anyone. Its not as if you have a string of court appearances behind you for blatant disregard of the law.

As for no tax at the time , you paid your fine so that's the end of that one.

9935452

FishOnABike wrote: »

The law would disagree with you.

Not having / displaying tax is a fixed charge notice.

Not having insurance is a mandatory disqualification.

While not having / presenting your licence is an automatic curt appearance in the op's case where it was only a matter of an oversight of a 2 or 3 weeks and it was renewed immediately I would be surprised if it resulted in anything more than a small fine and possibly not even that provided the OP turns up in court and can show everything is in order. (New licence, old licence to show it was an oversight of a few weeks and just in case bring evidence of tax - including back tax paid, insurance and nct).

Dont the NDLS take your old license when its out of date when you renew so it might not be possible to show the old license in court.

Regarding insurance i believe the op is technically insured regardless of the state of her license and any requirement for a current license on the insurance cert.
Dont the insurance company have a 3rd party obligation regardless of whats wrong. They pay out to the 3rd party in the event of an accident but can deny a claim to your car and can seek to recover costs from the policy holder if conditions arent made such as drink driving , driving without a fully licensed driver on a provisional license.

Special Circumstances

9935452 wrote: »

Dont the NDLS take your old license when its out of date when you renew so it might not be possible to show the old license in court.

Regarding insurance i believe the op is technically insured regardless of the state of her license and any requirement for a current license on the insurance cert.
Dont the insurance company have a 3rd party obligation regardless of whats wrong. They pay out to the 3rd party in the event of an accident but can deny a claim to your car and can seek to recover costs from the policy holder if conditions arent made such as drink driving , driving without a fully licensed driver on a provisional license.

That's the law as far as I can tell but some of the insurance industry lads are happy to tell people otherwise it seems!

Quazzie

The same thing happened to me, except I couldn't find my license so had to apply again. Went to court in Naas in front of Zaidn (sp?) and I was let go. My advice is, go to the guards that sit in front of the judge before the court commences and explain to them and they'll probably drop the case, which means you won't have to wait around all day in the court waiting to be called.

Big Nasty

I'm pretty sure once the summons is issued the case cannot be dropped and has to be heard. Having a chat with the Garda beforehand is a good idea though as the judge often asks if the Garda has any objection to the ruling.

@ OP - I wouldn't sweat it too much. Turn up with all your docs in order and be apologetic and you should be grand.

Quazzie

Big Nasty wrote: »

I'm pretty sure once the summons is issued the case cannot be dropped and has to be heard. Having a chat with the Garda beforehand is a good idea though as the judge often asks if the Garda has any objection to the ruling.

@ OP - I wouldn't sweat it too much. Turn up with all your docs in order and be apologetic and you should be grand.

There are Gardai in the court than handle every case. Not sure what their official title is. But they have the power to look at the documentation beforehand, and verify and once they're satisfied they'll let you go and then tell the judge it's been sorted. I seen someone do this on the day I was there but never copped what they were doing at the time, and when I was called before the judge, he told me I should've just done that too. Either way. even with the wait, once you're called it's two minutes, struck out, then it's gone.

FishOnABike

9935452 wrote: »

Dont the NDLS take your old license when its out of date when you renew so it might not be possible to show the old license in court.

I still have one of the old paper licences but whenever it was renewed the issue date is the date the new licence was issued, valid to date is ten years from the issue date but the valid from date has remained the same for each category since first granted.

Check the reverse of your licence, under column 10 it lists "Dáta an chéad eisiúna" - date first issued opposite each category. Your licence for that category is valid from that date (10+ years ago) to the expiry date of your current licence. Even if you no longer have your old licence this should show you have a valid licence for the date you were stopped.

Big Nasty

Quazzie wrote: »

There are Gardai in the court than handle every case. Not sure what their official title is. But they have the power to look at the documentation beforehand, and verify and once they're satisfied they'll let you go and then tell the judge it's been sorted. I seen someone do this on the day I was there but never copped what they were doing at the time, and when I was called before the judge, he told me I should've just done that too. Either way. even with the wait, once you're called it's two minutes, struck out, then it's gone.

Ah, news to me. Thought you were talking about the actual Garda who processed in the first place who would obviously have to appear.

FishOnABike

Zurbaran wrote: »

You'll do well to be out in 3.

minutes, though you might have to wait hours for your case to be called.

I'd still advise waiting for your case to be called even if it is agreed in advance with the prosecuting Garda to withdraw the prosecution as judges can take a dim view of people not turning up or being bothered to wait for their case once they have been served with a summons. Conversely most judges appreciate the courtesy shown to the court in you being there and waiting for your case to be called even if it is a rubber stamping of withdrawing the prosecution.

Cheensbo

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Insurance is my number 1, if someone doesn't have this they should be as close to a man slaughter charge as possible for using a car on the road withouth it.

What? Why? Not having insurance doesn't make them any more or less likely to have a crash/kill/injure someone...

Madness how much focus is on insurance, having a disc in the window doesn't affect the ability of a vehicle to travel without crashing. It may help financial costs after an incident but that's it - it's solely a financial surety - I agree that it's very important. And I believe a compulsory 3rd party cover should be included in the motor tax rate.

But jesus christ - manslaughter?

Fred Swanson

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