How high can drones fly?

pm.

Just see this on the journal http://www.thejournal.ie/toronto-3082570-Nov2016/?utm_source=shortlink

It's quite scary that civilian drones can fly this high? I was under the assumption that drones had a ceiling?

A plane traveling over 500kph hitting one of these could have a disasters effect on the the aircraft

notharrypotter

pm. wrote: »

Just see this on the journal http://www.thejournal.ie/toronto-3082570-Nov2016/?utm_source=shortlink

It's quite scary that civilian drones can fly this high? I was under the assumption that drones had a ceiling?

A plane traveling over 500kph hitting one of these could have a disasters effect on the the aircraft

People bandy the phrase "drones" without understanding fully what they are.
There is an attempt to categorise the concept slightly better than currently.
There is a significant difference in capably within the proposed classes.

GBX

The comments are of varied opinions on the Journal article. 20KM out to sea at 9,000 feet ... would you get that range from a commercially available drone?

civdef

The 9,000ft could just about be done with a good multirotor, for maybe a minute or so, you'd probably wreck the battery, and only after disabling the built in safety limits on most units, on newer ones this would be harder. You'd be going straight up and down to to it, no battery available for travelling.

20km out and 9000ft up would be impossible for a multirotor. Very hard to do with a fixed wing even, which would be big enough it wouldn't be confused with a balloon.

Generally the legal limit is 400ft.

airportlackie

2 guys were arrested at the end of the runway here in Shannon last weekend using a low level drone to record landings. Idiots spring to mind

Homer

The actual range from controller to drone varies and is dependant on the amount of interference in the area of operation and the specific drone.

The IAA have stated that drones shouldn't be flown within 5km of an airport and above 400ft... Of course the operator can fly the drone above that ceiling if they wish and the actual range would be determined by the signal between drone and controller (usually on a wifi frequency between 2.4 - 5ghz)

I have used my drone in the dublin mountains and while I maintain the 400ft ceiling I had a lateral range MUCH further than that.

Unfortunately there will always be irresponsible operators that give the rest a bad name.

Irish Steve

OK, let's clarify things a little.

Drones are basically a new name for a specific subset of devices that are remotely controlled via a radio link, the radio control model hobby has been around for many years, and until relatively recently, used rubber band power (yeah), or more recently, internal combustion engines of up to about 10cc capacity. In more recent times, small turbo jet engines have also become available, and engines larger than 10cc are also now very much easier to obtain.

There have been models made that are significantly larger than you might expect, scale models of both multi engine warbirds and commercial jets have been built with wingspans of over 20 Ft, and weights in excess of 25 Kg, and the models of jets that are flying with turbo jet power are capable of speeds approaching 300 miles an hour.

Until recently, there was no automatic pilot for such models, so flying them out of visible range of the controller on the ground wasn't possible, as once it was out of sight, there was a very good chance that it would crash shortly afterwards due to lack of user input to keep it flying correctly, and large models are extremely expensive to build, so great care was taken by the operator to reduce the risk of a crash.

That has all now very much changed, there is now automatic autopilot hardware available that is every bit as accurate as the automatic pilots on full size aircraft, they operate in exactly the same way as the full size aircraft systems do, using GPS to determine their location, so it is completely possible now to programme a model to fly to pretty much anywhere with an accuracy of +/- 5 metres, but these control systems are the size of a matchbox, and weigh about the same, so their use has meant that the remote model flying hobby has changed massively, as it is completely possible for the operator to activate the autopilot, and no further operator input is required for the model to continue to fly until the fuel or battery power is exhausted, and it will go wherever it has been programmed to go during that time.

What has then caused massive problems in recent times has been the rapid proliferation of multi rotor helicopter style electric models that also have these capable auto pilot electronics on them, which means that a remote user in (say) Dun Laoghaire can be fully able to programme a drone to take off from that area, and fly to Ashbourne without any further user involvement or intervention, and to clarify that, a few years ago now, a fixed wing aircraft was launched from the East Coast of the USA, and flew across the Atlantic to a pre planned location in West Ireland, where another user turned on a radio control transmitter and then was able to bring the plane in for a safe landing.

The big issue now is that the helicopter type devices can also hover over a fixed location, which has all manner of implications when things like a camera or video downlink is added to the device, and they can be programmed to fly very accurately along paths that are used by commercial aviation, and that is clearly extremely dangerous.

The other thing with these newer devices is that they are in some cases incredibly cheap, and because they can be navigated with very high levels of accuracy, that means a huge risk, so to take my earlier example, a non aware user could end up programming their "drone" to fly right through the approach or departure path of the airport, without even being aware that they have done so, and depending on the weight and size of such a drone, the potential for significant damage to an aircraft, or aircraft engine is massive, and that is why the new rules are being introduced and made widely known.

There have been a number of close encounters with drones reported by pilots in the last couple of years, in some cases at significant altitudes, and while a heavy multi rotor electric power drone might not be able to "loiter" at height for a significant period of time, a fixed wing internal combustion powered model would be well capable of orbiting over a point for a long period of time, the only limitation in such a case would be the battery capacity for the electronics, and the fuel reserves for the engine.

There are no full size aircraft systems that are capable of detecting a drone in flight, and they are too small to show up on radar systems at places like the airport, so they can and do represent a very real risk to the continued safe operation of commercial aircraft, something the size and weight of a duck can put an aircraft engine out of action, a drone with metal parts and a heavy battery has even more potential to do damage, and if it were to impact on other parts of the aircraft, like a flight deck windscreen, that extra weight has the potential to cause life threatening damage.

So, in summary, drones can and do represent a very real risk to commercial aviation, and as such, the IAA (and other regulatory bodies worldwide) have had no alternative to taking very clear action to make users aware of their responsibilities, and the risks that these devices represent to the aviation industry.

In passing, drones can also be a very real risk to a large assembled crowd in somewhere like Croke Park, in that they can be heavy, and if such a device crashes into a large crowd without warning, it will have the potential to cause significant injury to people on the ground.

0lddog

How high can drones fly ?

Well, there are drones and then there are drones.

How about this one ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-21/facebook-experimental-drone-accident-subject-of-safety-probe

Irish Steve

0lddog wrote: »

How high can drones fly ?

Well, there are drones and then there are drones.

How about this one ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-21/facebook-experimental-drone-accident-subject-of-safety-probe

Exactly. That one is designed to operate at levels that were the haunt of Concorde and the Blackbird high performance reconnaissance aircraft used to watch the opposition, way above commercial aircraft operating levels, and I suspect that because of its size, it would have to be transponder equipped so that its visible to other aircraft on TCAS when climbing and descending.

It's an indication of the sort of capability of these devices that it is designed to loiter at very high levels for prolonged periods of time without problems, and it has sufficient energy capture capability to be also able to operate on board electronics that are not essential to flight operations. We've also seen very long distance flight successfully completed by manned solar powered vehicles, so the technology is most definitely improving.

It is also very much designed to be operated in compliance with all the relevant rules and regulations that are applicable, so not a significant threat in the way that the very small and unsupervised drones could be.

martinsvi

Irish Steve wrote: »

So, in summary, drones can and do represent a very real risk to commercial aviation, and as such, the IAA (and other regulatory bodies worldwide) have had no alternative to taking very clear action to make users aware of their responsibilities, and the risks that these devices represent to the aviation industry.

if I could weigh in - the risk is not only to the commercial aviation as such, but aviation in general, including GA and military. Majority of GA flights happen at around just 2000-3000 ft and we only have one engine.. so it is critical that drone operators keep their machines in sight at all times even if they are not close to airports or controlled airspace. Dublin mountains are critical as it links EINC to EIKH and West, controlled airspace at above means we have very little room to work with

that being said, I have to say I've never really heard any GA pilot report any near misses with drones.. In fact, sometimes I wonder, how jet pilots are able to identify a drone if they're passing it at 250kt or more, I can hardly tell drone from a bird apart by doing just 100kt..

Irish Steve

martinsvi wrote: »

if I could weigh in - the risk is not only to the commercial aviation as such, but aviation in general, including GA and military. .

Valid point, I guess that the issue with commercial aircraft is that the flight paths are very specific, and it is very easy for a drone operator to put their drone in a position where it does then come very close to the commercial flight. The approach and departure tracks from any airport are clearly a significant risk area, but once outside of those areas, General aviation tend to be less regimented in their routing, so it's harder for a drone operator to put their device in the path of a GA aircraft.

The military are also at risk, in that they can (and do in the UK) operate at very low levels, so the potential for conflict with a drone is high, especially in the military low level training areas, where they can operate below 500 Ft, so a drone in such an area represents a very real danger.

I have to admit that if I am honest, I think it is only a matter of time before an aircraft and a drone have a collision, I just hope that the aircraft is not damaged to an extent that puts lives at risk.

Irish Steve

Sky news have just carried item about updated UK CAA guidance regarding drones. The most significant part for me was that they mentioned there have been 58 Airprox reports in the UK over the last 12 months reporting close encounters between aircraft and drones.

CaptainSkidmark

My drone wont go higher than 6 feet within a 1km radius of Cork Airport!

skallywag

Irish Steve wrote: »

...In passing, drones can also be a very real risk to a large assembled crowd in somewhere like Croke Park, in that they can be heavy, and if such a device crashes into a large crowd without warning, it will have the potential to cause significant injury to people on the ground.

The Austrian Ski team know all about this :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvF49R_ZX5E

bogman

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

My drone wont go higher than 6 feet within a 1km radius of Cork Airport!

I realise you cant fly a drone close to an airport, does software/firmware in association with the device GPS prevent you from doing so?

Irish Steve

bogman wrote: »

I realise you cant fly a drone close to an airport, does software/firmware in association with the device GPS prevent you from doing so?

Not that I'm aware of, and the unfortunate reality is that it won't be too hard to circumvent such protections if they are introduced, as the hardware to operate a drone can be bought off the shelf as separate modules without any restrictions.

The other problem would be that for a GPS to know where airports (and other restricted airspace) is, it would need to have an on board database that would be possibly very large, require updating on a regular basis, and because of the proprietary nature of much of the information, very expensive to gain access to.

bogman

Thanks Steve, I registered with ASSET last week but when I login and select the Airspace drop down menu there is no section to register a drone (which I dont have yet) ideas anyone ?

bogman

Wise move. this NEW app will tell you what areas are off limits for drone flying in the UK.

http://www.techradar.com/news/this-app-shows-you-where-its-legal-to-fly-your-drone-in-the-uk

CaptainSkidmark

bogman wrote: »

Thanks Steve, I registered with ASSET last week but when I login and select the Airspace drop down menu there is no section to register a drone (which I dont have yet) ideas anyone ?

its actually not drone any more, it says SUV or something. I cant remember of hand now as i'm in london and i cant remember my password either. It costs 5 euro to complete.

Irish Steve

Serious technology is being deployed to help deal with the drone problems, I was sent a link to this site earlier, it seems that there is now a way to disable these devices, and bring them down safely, which opens up the possibility of tracing the owner/operator, or taking appropriate action. Also means that if a drone appears at a crowded venue, there are ways to ensure it's not a risk to the people present.

Video is online at

civdef

That device has the small problem of being very illegal.

notharrypotter

Curious

being very illegal.

Link please?

civdef

Link to what exactly?

There's hardly much mystery in the fact a device works by broad-spectrum high energy jamming of 2.4GHz and GPS signals is going to be awkward to do legally is there?

Their own website even says as much..

DroneGun has not been authorized as required by the United States Federal Communications Commission (“FCC”). This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, in the United States, other than to the United States government and its agencies, until such authorization is obtained. The use of DroneGun in the United States by other persons or entities, including state or local government agencies, is prohibited by federal law. Laws limiting the availability of DroneGun to certain types of users may apply in other jurisdictions, and any sales will be conducted only in compliance with the applicable laws.

https://www.droneshield.com/dronegun

notharrypotter

United States Federal Communications Commission (“FCC”).

and

The use of DroneGun in the United States .............. is prohibited by federal law.

Last time I looked we were in Ireland.

Link to what exactly?

Some relevant Irish regulations might be nice.

civdef

Really?

You need me to provide a link to prove jamming 2.4 and GPS isn't legal here?

Enjoy reading:

https://www.comreg.ie/publication-download/radio-frequency-plan-for-ireland-5

Irish Steve

Having danced on the head of a pin for several messages, I think we can take it as read that if drones become a more serious problem than they already are, there will not be an issue getting approval, or licences or any other approvals to use a device like this, the caveat being that there will be severe restrictions on the organisations that will be allowed to have access to and use the technology.

civdef

I'm not sure it'd even be that straightforward, the amount of risk you'd get intentionally disrupting GPS in particular (but also 2.4 and cellular signals) would be very hard to justify.

The technology to do this kind of RF jamming is not difficult to do - a big amplifier and a directional antenna is most of it, difficult to restrict to unscrupulous people.

The jamming approach is also going to be made obsolete before too long with advances in IMU based navigation for small unmanned aircraft. Currently pretty much all of them use GPS for navigation and the IMU for stability, but the costs for inertial nav are coming down to a level that it would be able to make a small drone immune from interference with GPS.

In short, I reckon kinetic options are where drone interdiction is going to be at - though approaches probably will be made to the main drone flight controller manufacturers (and at the moment there really are only a couple of players) to give government agencies some sort of backdoor control options.